253 réponses à ce sujet

[Lord Goose]

The "even you are partly synthetic" is part of the
indoctrination trying to talk you out of choosing Destroy

''You will die if you choose Control''.
''You will die if you choose Synthesis''.
''Your chances of survival are slim if you choose Destroy''.
''You will die, knowing that you have saved nobody if you Refuse''.

It seems like that they want Shepard to choose Destroy, since it is the only option which does not makes death unavoidable.

Also, if in my Paragon run geth were dead, I would have also choosen destroy.

[zambot]

You don't have to believe the catalyst. You can refuse to do any of the choices if you want.

"Hey I'm the king of the reapers, and I'm going to tell you how to kill us all. All you have to do is blow up this pipe here."
"Wait, you want me to blow up part of the crucible? And this will kill you?"
"Yes, trust me. It will."
"And it won't cripple the crucible?"
"No of course not. To activate it, you have to shoot it."
"oh....ok..."

That's as silly as trusting him that jumping into a beam will unleash cool rainbow space magic, or that grabbing two electrified joysticks will allow you to control all the reapers. This is one of the many reasons the end is as silly as it is. You have to trust reaper kid that you just met 5 minutes ago to tell you how to use the crucible.

[dreman9999]

zambot wrote...

You don't have to believe the catalyst. You can refuse to do any of the choices if you want.

"Hey I'm the king of the reapers, and I'm going to tell you how to kill us all. All you have to do is blow up this pipe here."
"Wait, you want me to blow up part of the crucible? And this will kill you?"
"Yes, trust me. It will."
"And it won't cripple the crucible?"
"No of course not. To activate it, you have to shoot it."
"oh....ok..."

That's as silly as trusting him that jumping into a beam will unleash cool rainbow space magic, or that grabbing two electrified joysticks will allow you to control all the reapers. This is one of the many reasons the end is as silly as it is. You have to trust reaper kid that you just met 5 minutes ago to tell you how to use the crucible.

And how many time does it say it's forced to help you?

[zambot]

dreman9999 wrote...

zambot wrote...

You don't have to believe the catalyst. You can refuse to do any of the choices if you want.

"Hey I'm the king of the reapers, and I'm going to tell you how to kill us all. All you have to do is blow up this pipe here."
"Wait, you want me to blow up part of the crucible? And this will kill you?"
"Yes, trust me. It will."
"And it won't cripple the crucible?"
"No of course not. To activate it, you have to shoot it."
"oh....ok..."

That's as silly as trusting him that jumping into a beam will unleash cool rainbow space magic, or that grabbing two electrified joysticks will allow you to control all the reapers. This is one of the many reasons the end is as silly as it is. You have to trust reaper kid that you just met 5 minutes ago to tell you how to use the crucible.

And how many time does it say it's forced to help you?

Let's assume for a moment that I believe the kid is a liar.  Why would it make a difference to me that a liar told me he has to tell me the truth about something umpteen times?

[The Twilight God]

Lord Goose wrote...

This is what I mean. Grasping at straws. Trying to rationalize the irrational. You can't.

Is that personal or something, The Twilight God?

No, I mentioned this earlier in apost directed at people in general trying to rationalize the irrational because they like the way the ending makes them feel things will turn out. (i.e. metagamming is the only reason they "trust" the Star Child.) I did not mean to offend you. I apologize if I did.

Lord Goose wrote...

Well, fine. TIM could not control the Reapers because he was indoctrinated. Catalyst says the same thing. What's the problem?

The problem is the assumption that a non-indoctrinated person can simply because the reapers said so. There is no evidence that any one mind can control trillions of minds.

Lord Goose wrote...

I think that Paragon speech makes him realise that he is no longer in control of himself (just as it worked with Saren) and he commits suicide. And Renegade simply knocks him off emotional balance and Shepard uses that opening to shot him down.

He was controlled in both cases, but only Paragon managed to open his eyes. That's my interpretation of the situation.

Agreed. But the scene still demonstrates that TIM is indoctrinated. The fact that he is not allowed to open the war arms shows this.

Lord Goose wrote...

You are saying that "geth will die" is a lie made up by Reapers to convince Shepard to make different choice, right?

No. I've made no statements either or.

I'm saying only Destroy has a sacrifice above and beyond simply dying (which all endings share).

Lord Goose wrote...

When I'm saying that in my playthroug for Renegade Shepard did not give a damn about them, since she considered them to be tools and have choosen destroy. Clearly, she avoided Reapers trap, but not because she was bright, or anything. She survived because she was organic supremacist, basically.

You can say my Shepard feels this or that way, but did you play that Shepard? Is it even playable really? Did you wipe the geth out? Did you give Legion to Cerberus? People can claim Shepard feels this or that way, but if the story says otherwise then you're wrong. It's like I wanted to play a human supremacist Shepard at one point. We'll, Garrus is my bro either way. Bioware doesn't really allow me to be a human supremacist. In ME2 he is your bro, Tali still adores you, Liara is BFF, by merely not killing Wrex were good friends. etc. Shepard can't kill the Legion VI and say "pfft, stupid robot". He can't be openly bigotted. He's "sorry" about the geth even if you side with quarians. The story shows that Shepard does not feel that AI's are just dumb tools. Ignoring content to pretend Shepard is something he's not, imo, doesn't remove the fact that there are certain traits that the player has no control over. Youtube the speech with EDI afterwards. Shepars isn't exacly callous about the geth's extinction, paragon or renegade. Why even trust your ship with one. Shepard could have informed the Alliance that EDI was an AI and told themn to get it off the ship.  I could be wrong (i haven;t seen all dialog), but I just didn't see it as possible to be harcore anti-synthetic. I'm going to play a game with no legion and wipe them out. This way Shepard has no reason to think they all work for reapers to see how the dialog changes.

Reapers made a mistake. A very-very stupid one.

In short, if you have played Renegade, Destroy have no downside.

As I said before I partially agree. This was brought up and discussed in the Ending related sticky thread. However, most people don't play this way. Most people are paragon and it was mean to inflluence the most people.

But, If that were the case then the Reapers simply have no ace in the hole. Not a mistake. They are just sh*t out of luck. Your shep is either indoctrinated or your shep isn't indoctrinated.

Modifié par The Twilight God, 04 août 2012 - 08:57 .

[The Twilight God]

Wulfram wrote...

If the Catalyst is lying, then there's no reason to think Destroy will work either.

And when it fails to work then what does the Star Child do? Obviously something is keeping the Crucible from firing. There is no reason Shepard, EDI and whoever couldn't figure it out. It's always good to mix truth in with your lies.

http://social.biowar...9372/1#13419372

[The Twilight God]

dreman9999 wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

Lord Goose wrote...

Shepard dies in all endings. All dialog leading up paints a picture that Shepard will die no matter which choice he makes.

I think that you are mistaken.

In Control and Synthesis Catalyst is explicit when he tells Shepard what he will either die, or will be dispersed across the galaxy. In Low-EMS Destroy he also makes a point, that all people with synthetic implants would die.

In High-EMS Destroy he is vague about it ("even you are partly synthetic" doesn't mean that Shepard will definitely die" So Shepard either has to choose between "certain death" vs "high possibility of death".

Also, Reapers would also die.

Control and Synthesis have no downside compared to Destroy if taken at face value. None at all.

II just was playing Renegade and the situation was completely reversed. My Renegade Shepard treated synthetics as mix between pets and tools, and was actually going to wipe out geth because of quarians. It didn't happened, but only because she thought that it good to have more firepower.

Naturally, she choose "kill all Reapers and have a slim chance of survival".

To me his implications are that Shepard will die too because of all his implants. We can agree to diagree here, but when I was playing and I got to that point I was expecting Shepard to die no matter what.

So you gave Legion over to Cerberus in ME2 and trusted a VI with reaper code not to turn on you, but your Shepard thinks they are just pets (that have done nothing but bite you up to this point)? Interesting. In one of the Ending stickied threads this was brought up. How renegade synth haters get everything they want, but paragons are forced to comprimise. Dispite this the majority of people don't play this way and that is what Bioware is betting on.

1. One way or another, a preson can esilly see the geth as just tools. Sure , they can think, bu thte only reason why we are even bothering with them at the base concept  is that they can help us with the reapers. That's the same as any race. The geth are tools, the quarians are tools, the krogan, turians and ect are tools.

2.A person with that mind set would easilly consider the geth or any race desposible for the sake of victory.

3. Also, just because you renegade does not mean your out to save yourself. A renagade Shep can easily be willing to sacrifice themselves for victory just like any paragon. Renagade does not mean selfish.

Yes, I understan that. I allowed the batarians to fight with us even though my Shepard hates Batarians. I simply don't think the game allows for a truly anti-synthetic sort of Shepard. Not that I have seen so I could be wrong.

Modifié par The Twilight God, 05 août 2012 - 12:45 .

[The Twilight God]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

The miraculous recovery doesn't bother me so much. People can stuff down pain. I've seen animals do that. Dogs do it all the time.

That was not the kind of circumstance where you ignore a broken rib. That's in live or die situations where you want to live. Shepard should have limped over and then leap.



God, I wish they would put this music in the actually endings. It fits so perfectly with what's going on on screen.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

dreman9999 wrote...

I'm sorry...I have 3 shepards that picked destory...It did not work.Also, before you get worried about the reapers getting you to do what they want, maybe you should understand what they want first...It's not reaping.

And why did destroy not work?

The Starbrat says it wants Synthesis. It says it tried it before, but it failed because it cannot be forced. It forced it before. Yet this time it thinks it would be voluntary? With one person imposing it on every single organic and synthetic being in the galaxy? No. It is still forced. It would fail. It must be voluntary. It is not something that an AI can understand. It is not something that this thing will allow to happen naturally because it keeps interfering with the process with its chaos vs. order. It wants perfect order. Chaos allows for evolution. Order does not.

They did not send an emmisary and tell us what they wanted first and negotiate. They just came here and started destroying and terrorizing. They took without asking. They violated. They are the destroyers of worlds, civilizations, of people, children.

So, I don't need to understand what they want. I don't need to understand why they exist. They do not understand what it means to be a mother. They are destroying my home. They are destroying the home of my children, and the homes of my loved ones. They are killing them. For that they must die regardless of their "higher motive."

[The Twilight God]

dreman9999 wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

They were over ran by the reapers because the reaper can focus a stronger control then ceberus. The reaper have more power. It was stated to control the reaper a strong power source was needed, that was the catalyst.

You just shot yourself in the foot.

You're contradicting yourself. If the Reapers control is so powerful how can TIM ever have known he could control anything? He would have been meet with failure. The only people he indoctrinates are his own creations. And even they are stated to have started to hear reaper voices.

There is nothing shown whatsoever to imply that TIM can control reapers or their forces. Just the ramblings of an indoctinated puppet. What is even the point of implanting himself with reaper tech and researching his own method if he didn't need any of that and knew he could just use the Crucible.

Shepard didn't need any special reasearch and implants to suicide himself at the Control console and supposedly take control. So what exactly was TIM expecting?

As I said before, they stated they need a strong power sorce to over whelm the reapers and control them...That is the crucible.

A greater power source for what? His researched indoctrination techniques? The ones that weren't necessary at all if you believe Shepard took control? Do you see what I'm getting at here?

And at what point does TIM say he needs a battery to charge his control technique? I only recall him saying he knows it will work "just because".

[The Twilight God]

Lord Goose wrote...

Again, you are trying to shift the subject. I have already asserted that the Star Child is not the Citadel.

Actually, we have no evidence on that point.

It can't open the ward arms, activate the Citadel relay, shut down the relay network. I can;t do anything of significance. I don;t know what your idea of being a part of something is, but it clearly isn;t the same as mine. It like saying the Council is part of the Citadel. They are there, sure, but a part of it?

[The Twilight God]

dreman9999 wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

1. EDI is the normandy. Much of what make EDI who EDI is is in the ship its self. The normady is her body.
2.The citadel does nto control what the crucible does...The crucible controls the citadel.

1. EDI dies in Destroy and Normandy takes off and flies away. Dispite this she is still more part of the Normandy than the Star Child is the Citadel. Nice try trying to sidestep the subject.

But back to waht we were talking about: The Star Child is not part of the Citadel. Comparing him to EDI and the Normandy was a mistake on your part, but I think you realize that now.

2. Again, you are trying to shift the subject. I have already asserted that the Star Child is not the Citadel. The Citadel/Crucible relationshiop doesn't matter in the context of the Star Child until you can back up your claim that it is part of the Citadel. Good luck with that.  All you need to know is I'm saying that the Star Child is powerless to directly intervene. All it is there to do is indoctrinate and manipulate Shepard into suiciding himself to advance the reaper's agenda.

1. So what?Just because a synthetic dies does not means it's parts stop working or can't be used agein. Death for a synthetic does not mean death of it's body. It means death of it's persona. The normady is EDI's body, it does not mean EDI can't be taken away form it.

2......You make no sense at all. If that was the case, why offer Destroy at all if it had control over what the crucible does?

1. We both agree that EDI is a part of the Normandy. But this isn't about EDI. Stop trying to divert the subject. The Star Child is not a part of the Citadel. At best, it is an occupant no different than Bailey.

2. I never said it did. That's your strawman.

It does not offer Destroy. It offers Control and Synthesis. Destroy is what you came to do. It's your only option up until the Star Child makes it's own suggestions. From Mars to the illusive man encounter on the Citadel Destory was the only option. The reapers have installed a device that prevents the Crucible from arming. A device you have to destroy so that it can arm.  The reapers have installed hardware to interact with the Crucible to adapt it's energy source to power synthesis and (to a lesser extent) control.

Modifié par The Twilight God, 04 août 2012 - 09:26 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

The Twilight God wrote...

Lord Goose wrote...

Again, you are trying to shift the subject. I have already asserted that the Star Child is not the Citadel.

Actually, we have no evidence on that point.

It can't open the ward arms, activate the Citadel relay, shut down the relay network. I can;t do anything of significance. I don;t know what your idea of being a part of something is, but it clearly isn;t the same as mine. It like saying the Council is part of the Citadel. They are there, sure, but a part of it?

Starbrat is not the Catalyst. Starbrat can't do anything. It can't open the arms. Good one. Someone else has to do that.

Shepard is the Catalyst. This is why Shepard was never able to find it. Starbrat is the AI that is trying to indoctrinate Shepard. BioWare was tricky here. The Starbrat is labeled "Child" in the subtitles, not "Catalyst." Why is that?

[Maggot4ever]

Because my Shepard becomes a God and it tells me so, yeah that's about it.

[The Twilight God]

zambot wrote...

You don't have to believe the catalyst. You can refuse to do any of the choices if you want.

"Hey I'm the king of the reapers, and I'm going to tell you how to kill us all. All you have to do is blow up this pipe here."
"Wait, you want me to blow up part of the crucible? And this will kill you?"
"Yes, trust me. It will."
"And it won't cripple the crucible?"
"No of course not. To activate it, you have to shoot it."
"oh....ok..."

That's as silly as trusting him that jumping into a beam will unleash cool rainbow space magic, or that grabbing two electrified joysticks will allow you to control all the reapers. This is one of the many reasons the end is as silly as it is. You have to trust reaper kid that you just met 5 minutes ago to tell you how to use the crucible.

The Star Child does not tell you how to use the Crucible. It tells you what it has done to prevent the Crucible from firing. Something that Shepard could figure out on his own or with assistance from EDI or the Crucible sceintists who are there (Kasumi is with them in orbit). The Crucible didn't fire an intended. All the Junk around the docking area is a pretty go place to start investigating.

That device, which I call the "Crucible Suppression Device" (CSD), is NOT part of the Crucible. None of that junk at eye level is part of the Crucible. It is all part of the Citadel, created premeditatedly in anticiapation of the possibility of the Crucible docking. The entire set up is part of the Reaper's plan B scenario. Look at the cutscene where the Crucible docks. You see exactly were the Crucible ends and the Citadel begins.

I can't believe how many people think that stuff is part of the Crucible when it is clearly on the Citadel and completely seperate from the Crcucble. It's like saying a pad lock that is keeping a door from opening is part of the door when the only way to oper the door is to use a bolt cutter to permanently destroy the pad lock.

The Twilight God wrote...


The Star Child establishes itself as the Catalyst, even though that is merely a codename the Protheans used to hide the fact that the Citadel is the final piece of the equation. It only knows about the term "catalyst" from pulling the information out of Shepard's mind, just as it has pulled the image of the boy out of Shepard's mind (and probably put it in there to begin with). The reason for claiming it is the Catalyst is to appear to be a part of the Crucible equation. However, the Star Child is not. The Crucible never needed the Star Child to do anything. In fact, if not for the Star Child's Crucible Suppression Device (CSD) the Crucible would have armed itself immediately after it docked with the Catalyst (i.e. the Citadel). The idea that anyone would build a weapon to defeat the Reapers dependent on the Star Child’s (i.e. Reapers’) consent to work is absurd. This would entail fighting through the Reapers’ forces and praying that they would simply capitulate and suicide themselves if you manage to dock the Crucible. I must reiterate the idiotic nature of this train of thought. I will continue to refer to the Star Child as the Catalyst for the sake of familiarity.

The Twilight God wrote...

"Shepard asks the Catalyst, regarding the Crucible, "Why didn't you stop it?"
The Catalyst's replies, "We believed the concept had been eradicated."

And yet, there is a Crucible Suppression Device (CSD) installed within the Citadel with the sole intent of preventing the Crucible from firing. To enact the Destroy option you have to destroy this device to allow the Crucible to continue with its intended purpose. Without that device the Crucible would have fired as soon as it docked with the Citadel (the true Catalyst) without any input from the Star Child. Note that there is no actual console to initiate the Destroy option. It was intended to activate automatically as Destroy is the only function the Crucible itself can perform.

6. The lies continue...

The Catalyst follows up with, "You have altered the variables.
Shepard asks, "What do you mean?
The Catalyst answers, "The Crucible changed me. Created new possibilities."

If these are new possibilities that have just now become a reality why is there an interface constructed on the Citadel for the sole purpose of transmuting an organic mind into a synthetic mind? And why is there a walkway leading up to it? Obviously this possibility is not new to the Catalyst, but instead premeditated. The Catalyst was therefore anticipating the possibility of the Crucible docking and prepared accordingly."

Modifié par The Twilight God, 05 août 2012 - 12:41 .

[The Twilight God]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Starbrat is not the Catalyst. Starbrat can't do anything. It can't open the arms. Good one. Someone else has to do that.

Shepard is the Catalyst. This is why Shepard was never able to find it. Starbrat is the AI that is trying to indoctrinate Shepard. BioWare was tricky here. The Starbrat is labeled "Child" in the subtitles, not "Catalyst." Why is that?

Figuratively speaking, yes.

But literally, the Catalyst is the Citadel just as Vendetta said. The term "catalyst" is used to keep its identify secret. In order to reach every pocket of the Galaxy the Crucible needs the relay network and to access the entire network it needs the Citadel (the real Catalyst).

Modifié par The Twilight God, 05 août 2012 - 12:44 .

[noobcannon]

I think it just comes down to the catalyst tricking the player into thinking they're different than the countless organics that have tried before him.

[OdanUrr]

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Why do you believe the catalyst?

Well, if I don't believe him about Control, why should I believe him about Destroy? Shooting at a tube doesn't seem like the way to activate a weapon. Neither's jumping into a beam of light for that matter.

[His Name was HYR!!]

noobcannon wrote...

I think it just comes down to the catalyst tricking the player into thinking they're different than the countless organics that have tried before him.

Well, seeing as he's the only organic to make it to the Catalyst chamber, where there's a control thingy built into it, along with a finished Crucible to power it up, I'd say that one can reason that he IS different than the organics that tried before him without the Catalyst completely.

[noobcannon]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

noobcannon wrote...

I think it just comes down to the catalyst tricking the player into thinking they're different than the countless organics that have tried before him.

Well, seeing as he's the only organic to make it to the Catalyst chamber, where there's a control thingy built into it, along with a finished Crucible to power it up, I'd say that one can reason that he IS different than the organics that tried before him without the Catalyst completely.

I guess it just comes down to whether or not you believe him. after seeing his response in the refuse ending, I believe his control pitch even less.

Modifié par noobcannon, 05 août 2012 - 01:40 .

[noobcannon]

OdanUrr wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Why do you believe the catalyst?

Well, if I don't believe him about Control, why should I believe him about Destroy? Shooting at a tube doesn't seem like the way to activate a weapon. Neither's jumping into a beam of light for that matter.

i can't speak for other people who chose destroy, but the catalyst had very little to do with my desicion. my desicion was based on everything i know from the last three games. it is not based on what the catalyst tells me in the last 10 minutes because like you said, why trust anything he says?

Modifié par noobcannon, 05 août 2012 - 01:46 .

[OdanUrr]

noobcannon wrote...

i can't speak for other people who chose destroy, but the catalyst had very little to do with my desicion. my desicion was based on everything i know from the last three games. it is not based on what the catalyst tells me in the last 10 minutes because like you said, why trust anything he says?

My point exactly. If you believe him to be lying about one of the options, he could be lying about all three. The problem with the Catalyst is that he was rushed into existence in the last ten minutes of the game in order to tell Shepard how to use the Crucible. Naturally, such a being would elicit curiosity in any one of us but Shepard's questions were sidelined in the original endings and then were acknowledged but ultimately ignored in the EC. You either believe him or not, and even if you do believe him you don't have to agree with him.

[Comsky159]

Because the epilogue says he's telling the truth?

[His Name was HYR!!]

noobcannon wrote...

I guess it just comes down to whether or not you believe him. after seeing his response in the refuse ending, I believe his control pitch even less.

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Well, seeing as he's the only organic to make it to the Catalyst chamber, where there's a control thingy built into it, along with a finished Crucible to power it up, I'd say that one can reason that he IS different than the organics that tried before him without the Catalyst completely.

 

[Kataphrut94]

Catalyst isn't trying to decieve anyone, he's just telling us the options the Crucible provided. If he didn't want us to chose them, he wouldn't have bothered bringing us up in the first place. Also, unlike the Illusive Man, he actually knows what he's talking about.