114 réponses à ce sujet

[Amycus89]

In DA2 you are thrown in to a no-mans land that you don't care about, with a family you know nothing about, and thus don't care about, and then thrown into a city that you are never giving any reason to care about, with its inhabitants you never have any reason to care about.

I know that Da2 tried to do a more personal, emotional story compared to origins. And I actually like that idea, as opposed to everything being "epic" where the whole world is once again in peril and you are the only one to stop it. Unfortunately, as I think it is pretty clear now, it failed pretty spectacularly in these areas. 

WHat DA2 SHOULD have done: Make the game start first in "just another peaceful day" of Lothering, right before anyone ever hears about the blight. Let us learn about the town, our family and other inhabitants (and finally some basic lore of the place for first time players), so we can care about the loss later on. Then let the news about the darkspawn reach the town, and you need to go to Ostagar for the battle. Then let us see from the perspective of the common soldier there, about Loghain, the king, and the grey wardens - and finally see the chaos that breaks out when the darkspawn overrun you after Loghains betrayal. Fight for your life to get back to Lothering and the rest of your family,and see the panic spread throughout the town before the darkspawn overrun the place. THEN we are at the place where DA2 actually (unfortunately) starts. 

Then we are, after having a certain companion killed (that we actually might have a chance to care about now), thrown into a short cutscene where we are suddenly teleported to Kirkwall. Why not let us have some gameplay during this joerney, where all the refugees are packed like rats, to show the hardship Hawke and his family had to go through. Have some quests of merely finding enough water to survive, or medicine to sick passengers/companions. Make it feel like things went from bad to worse. THEN we are FINALLY in Kirkwall, and this time we know in our minds that we really, really don't want to go back through the same way we came, 

Then just about 10 min in we have, unfortunatey, ANOTHER timeskip where we suddenly have worked a whole year (well that was fast. What was the big deal, we got in and suddenly have better weapons and armor. Didn't feel much like living in servitude if you ask me...). Once again would have been an excellent opportunity to make us feel like we had hit rock bottom, and something had to change. And then we might also have actually have known all the city's inhabitants instead of suddenly having a bunch of strangers calling out to me like I had known them my whole life -not to mention that it would have been an excellent time to give some branching quest lines depending on whether you went with the smuggler or mercenary.

I could continue, but I think I have made my point. Stop with the timeskips, unless you make us sit in a prison for a year or two (but then the world outside should have also changed). It disconnects us from our characters.

Modifié par Amycus89, 04 août 2012 - 11:49 .

[Melca36]

I believe the developers have already said the next game would not have them and the game wouldnt be a 3ACT Narrative

[LobselVith8]

I agree with you, Amycus89. We should have been allowed to get to know our family, instead of being thrown into the action and losing a complete stranger. It seems like, post-Origins, we are thrown into the action, rather than allowing the story to immerse us. I also think the time jumps were poorly handled. It felt like Hawke was in a coma during those skips in time.

[Amycus89]

Melca36 wrote...

I believe the developers have already said the next game would not have them and the game wouldnt be a 3ACT Narrative

Hopefully they don't mean only the timeskips between the "acts" but anything that skips information that should be relevant to our characters. Note that all the examples I stated above are all before act 2 starts.

They pretty much skipped the beginning completely in DA2. It was pretty much how DA:O would have been if you started right before you meet the king with Duncan in Ostagar, thrown into the world without any reason to care about what is happening around you.

[LolaLei]

OP: You're a genius! I love the ideas you came up with to fill in the time skips!

If time skips are added to any future DA game then they should be short, like "5 hours later" whilst being stuck in a dungeon or something. In DA2 I think the large time skips would have been more tolerable if Hawke's environment and circumstances drastically changed over the years, so that it was obvious that x-number of years had passed.

Modifié par LolaLei, 04 août 2012 - 11:36 .

[JimboGee]

I agree. I wasn't that busted up about one of the deaths anyways. I think you need to spend a certain amount of time getting to know someone in a game before you an be affected by their actions. Bioware didn't really do a good job on that. Especially with a family we had never met before. Let's hope they do a better job on the next one.

[Rxdiaz]

I really wonder how BioWare ever thought that was a good idea...

Lately I really don't understand their thinking at all.

[nightscrawl]

Amycus89 wrote...

In DA2 you are thrown in to a no-mans land that you don't care about, with a family you know nothing about, and thus don't care about, and then thrown into a city that you are never giving any reason to care about, with its inhabitants you never have any reason to care about.

I only partly disagree with you there. While I didn't really "care" about the situation we start in, just as I didn't really "care" that Lothering got destroyed in DAO, it was interesting  by virtue of the fact that I had been there several times in my many plays of DAO, knew what the main part of the town looked like, who lived there, went in the Chantry, and so on. I felt that it was an interesting way to connect the two games. I've felt that DA2 was a sidestep from DAO because of this, and I never held that against it.

While I did like my various Hawkes, I never cared that much for the family. The only person I really liked was Bethany, and that was because of her innate personality, and not as a family member. To compare, I felt that the relationships built with the followers (friend and rival) were much more rewarding because you start them from the ground up, having met them throughout the game, rather than starting the game with a family.

I know that Da2 tried to do a more personal, emotional story compared to origins. And I actually like that idea, as opposed to everything being "epic" where the whole world is once again in peril and you are the only one to stop it. Unfortunately, as I think it is pretty clear now, it failed pretty spectacularly in these areas.

Well said. Unfortunately, I do have to agree.

WHat DA2 SHOULD have done: Make the game start first in "just another peaceful day" of Lothering, right before anyone ever hears about the blight. Let us learn about the town, our family and other inhabitants (and finally some basic lore of the place for first time players), so we can care about the loss later on. Then let the news about the darkspawn reach the town, and you need to go to Ostagar for the battle. Then let us see from the perspective of the common soldier there, about Loghain, the king, and the grey wardens - and finally see the chaos that breaks out when the darkspawn overrun you after Loghains betrayal. Fight for your life to get back to Lothering and the rest of your family, and see the panic spread throughout the town before the darkspawn overrun the place. THEN we are at the place where DA2 actually (unfortunately) starts.

While I can see this being great for players coming into the DA franchise with DA2, I can say that I would not have enjoyed this at all as someone who came from DAO, and having played it several times. Not only would more things have looked different due to the character creation being different from DAO, but it would have been terribly redundant.

Also don't forget that the "fight for your life to get back to Lothering" portion, while exciting, is only valid if you played as a rogue or warrior, since a mage Hawke did not fight at Ostagar, only Carver did.

Why not let us have some gameplay during this journey, where all the refugees are packed like rats, to show the hardship Hawke and his family had to go through. Have some quests of merely finding enough water to survive, or medicine to sick passengers/companions. Make it feel like things went from bad to worse. THEN we are FINALLY in Kirkwall, and this time we know in our minds that we really, really don't want to go back through the same way we came.

I'm not a fan of this either really. These just seem like minigames to pass the time, to be honest. I did that kind of thing in The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker with a minigame on a boat. Meh...

Then just about 10 min in we have, unfortunatey, ANOTHER timeskip where we suddenly have worked a whole year (well that was fast. What was the big deal, we got in and suddenly have better weapons and armor. Didn't feel much like living in servitude if you ask me...). Once again would have been an excellent opportunity to make us feel like we had hit rock bottom, and something had to change. And then we might also have actually have known all the city's inhabitants instead of suddenly having a bunch of strangers calling out to me like I had known them my whole life -not to mention that it would have been an excellent time to give some branching quest lines depending on whether you went with the smuggler or mercenary.

I agree 100% here. However, similar to some mage specific quest content, I wouldn't be surprised if some of this was cut due to time or lack of resources.


In general, while an interesting story device in passive media (boots, tv, movie), I don't think large time gaps work too well in an RPG. You lose character development and relationship building opportunities that just aren't an issue with other game genres.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 05 août 2012 - 12:47 .

[Emzamination]

Amycus89 wrote...

In DA2 you are thrown in to a no-mans land that you don't care about, with a family you know nothing about, and thus don't care about, and then thrown into a city that you are never giving any reason to care about, with its inhabitants you never have any reason to care about.

I know that Da2 tried to do a more personal, emotional story compared to origins. And I actually like that idea, as opposed to everything being "epic" where the whole world is once again in peril and you are the only one to stop it. Unfortunately, as I think it is pretty clear now, it failed pretty spectacularly in these areas. 

WHat DA2 SHOULD have done: Make the game start first in "just another peaceful day" of Lothering, right before anyone ever hears about the blight. Let us learn about the town, our family and other inhabitants (and finally some basic lore of the place for first time players), so we can care about the loss later on. Then let the news about the darkspawn reach the town, and you need to go to Ostagar for the battle. Then let us see from the perspective of the common soldier there, about Loghain, the king, and the grey wardens - and finally see the chaos that breaks out when the darkspawn overrun you after Loghains betrayal. Fight for your life to get back to Lothering and the rest of your family,and see the panic spread throughout the town before the darkspawn overrun the place. THEN we are at the place where DA2 actually (unfortunately) starts. 

Then we are, after having a certain companion killed (that we actually might have a chance to care about now), thrown into a short cutscene where we are suddenly teleported to Kirkwall. Why not let us have some gameplay during this joerney, where all the refugees are packed like rats, to show the hardship Hawke and his family had to go through. Have some quests of merely finding enough water to survive, or medicine to sick passengers/companions. Make it feel like things went from bad to worse. THEN we are FINALLY in Kirkwall, and this time we know in our minds that we really, really don't want to go back through the same way we came, 

Then just about 10 min in we have, unfortunatey, ANOTHER timeskip where we suddenly have worked a whole year (well that was fast. What was the big deal, we got in and suddenly have better weapons and armor. Didn't feel much like living in servitude if you ask me...). Once again would have been an excellent opportunity to make us feel like we had hit rock bottom, and something had to change. And then we might also have actually have known all the city's inhabitants instead of suddenly having a bunch of strangers calling out to me like I had known them my whole life -not to mention that it would have been an excellent time to give some branching quest lines depending on whether you went with the smuggler or mercenary.

I could continue, but I think I have made my point. Stop with the timeskips, unless you make us sit in a prison for a year or two (but then the world outside should have also changed). It disconnects us from our characters.

What is with all this not caring? I care about ferelden, why would anyone who has played dragon age not care about ferelden? the developers aren't going to take time to take you through birth,child hood and growing up with your siblings so you get to know them as you go along but your character already has a deep history as referenced in the codex entries.I was given quite a bit of sentimental reasons to care about kirkwall seeing as it's the home of hawkes ancestors.I personally found most of the inhabitants to be great and even grew to love some of them.

The whole world is in peril? where'd you get that?

The "just another day" route has been done to death and is pretty generic and bland Imho.If you don't know anything about lothering or its inhabitants, you have no business picking up Da2.Why would you need to expiernce the events of ostagar as a common soldier in Da2 when we already did that in Da:O, that makes no sense, not to mention it would kill quite a bit of lore.

The rest...no the whole of your post is made up of grotesque generalizations and simplifications just to beef up your argument.The basis of your argument is personal preferrence, projecting your feelings as if you speak for the whole and the Idea that the DA team should pander solely to your ideas because you've obviously been writing Fantasy & game content longer than Hepler & gaider, Tsk tsk

[Castalan]

The long character specific intro was one of the things that for me made DAO. It introduced the world and your characters(starting) role in it. Good writing from Bioware there. I think most of Amycus89's ideas would have improved things for me in DA2. To be honest I didn't really start caring about Hawke til after the first act. However it wasn't the time jumps so much as the lack of introduction.

[OdanUrr]

Amycus89 wrote...

In DA2 you are thrown in to a no-mans land that you don't care about, with a family you know nothing about, and thus don't care about, and then thrown into a city that you are never giving any reason to care about, with its inhabitants you never have any reason to care about.

In a nutshell.

[nightscrawl]

@ Emzamination, that's all well and good, but how did you feel about the time gaps? Did you like them, dislike them, not care either way?

Emzamination wrote...

If you don't know anything about lothering or its inhabitants, you have no business picking up Da2.Why would you need to expiernce the events of ostagar as a common soldier in Da2 when we already did that in Da:O, that makes no sense, not to mention it would kill quite a bit of lore.

Game companies always want to attract new players. There were several people who got introduced to the Dragon Age franchise with DA2. Some of those went on to play DAO and loved it, some of them couldn't get into it.

Also, it would not touch the lore in any way. The lore from DAO revolves around your Warden, what s/he did at Ostagar and afterward. Not everyone from the army died there, it's mentioned in DAO itself, so this scenario, while not my favorite, is not implausible. If there was a portion of some other game showing what some poor schmuck at Ostagar did how does that affect lore in any way?

Modifié par nightscrawl, 05 août 2012 - 01:58 .

[Emzamination]

nightscrawl wrote...

@ Emzamination, that's all well and good, but how did you feel about the time gaps? Did you like them, dislike them, not care either way?

I enjoyed the 3 year skips in time, especially in regard to romances, I found it enjoyable to read the '3 years later' codex entries and see how my romance moved forward in those years based on my decisions as well as how my other coeterie members were affected.Another thing I liked about the time skips from a rp perspective is it gave me reason to use the black emporium mirror to make myself look a little older each skip.I strongly believe we should have time skips in Da3.

[OdanUrr]

Emzamination wrote...

I strongly believe we should have time skips in Da3.

I disagree, especially if they're used this way. While the game may tell us years have passed between events, the truth is it doesn't look like it did. People were still wearing the same clothes, standing on the same places, doing the same things, looking exactly the same as they did ten years ago. A few things might have changed here and there but I expected more from a game restricted to a single city. To me, it appeared more as if someone had strung along a series of events that could've happened over the course of one or two years and then dished them out with time labels to try and convince us they spanned a decade. Some, if not all, of the time skips were too long to be at all believable, and the very first one that had Hawke making a reputation for himself should most definitely not have been skipped.

[Ianamus]

The time skips sort of ruin the "show, don't tell" thing that character development needs. I don't want to hear or read about these character-defining moments that happened in the three years between acts, I want to be there to see it myself. They also somehow made Kirkwall feel even more stagnant, as nothing changed even after such long periods of time. 

Small time skips are alright, but I'd rather have a continuous story. I don't like being told I should care about characters because my protagonist has "known them for years" when I've only seen them for an hour or so on-screen (This happened a few times in DA2 with more minor characters and the family in particular). It was strange, because by the end of the first act I cared much more for my party members who I had technically only just met than I did for Hawkes own mother, who I still knew next to nothing about.

Modifié par EJ107, 05 août 2012 - 02:22 .

[Emzamination]

OdanUrr wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

I strongly believe we should have time skips in Da3.

I disagree, especially if they're used this way. While the game may tell us years have passed between events, the truth is it doesn't look like it did. People were still wearing the same clothes, standing on the same places, doing the same things, looking exactly the same as they did ten years ago. A few things might have changed here and there but I expected more from a game restricted to a single city. To me, it appeared more as if someone had strung along a series of events that could've happened over the course of one or two years and then dished them out with time labels to try and convince us they spanned a decade. Some, if not all, of the time skips were too long to be at all believable, and the very first one that had Hawke making a reputation for himself should most definitely not have been skipped.

Time does not start in Da2, it starts in Da:O and in that 10 year period fashions did indeed change among the nobility, the poor will always be in rags they don't matter.You must remember dragonage is set around the british medieval era so of course they are not going to be setting a new trend every year, we'd be lucky to see a new trend every 10 or 20 years in fact.What people are you talking about? the city npcs? If so I can confirm that they do indeed get moved around,added and subtracted each skip.The majority of game play was in the city but to say it was 'restricted'...no we could leave and explore outside the city.IIrc it takes a year for hawke to make a name for himself, no? It also took a year for the blight to be defeated, no? the skip was mandatory.

[JasonPogo]

Emzamination wrote...

nightscrawl wrote...

@ Emzamination, that's all well and good, but how did you feel about the time gaps? Did you like them, dislike them, not care either way?

I enjoyed the 3 year skips in time, especially in regard to romances, I found it enjoyable to read the '3 years later' codex entries and see how my romance moved forward in those years based on my decisions as well as how my other coeterie members were affected.Another thing I liked about the time skips from a rp perspective is it gave me reason to use the black emporium mirror to make myself look a little older each skip.I strongly believe we should have time skips in Da3.

I hated the time skip from Act 1 to Act 2.  Why did it take my Hawke that long to tell his romance option that he kinda liked them?  Seems like they spent a lot of time pissing around doing nothing.

[Emzamination]

JasonPogo wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

nightscrawl wrote...

@ Emzamination, that's all well and good, but how did you feel about the time gaps? Did you like them, dislike them, not care either way?

I enjoyed the 3 year skips in time, especially in regard to romances, I found it enjoyable to read the '3 years later' codex entries and see how my romance moved forward in those years based on my decisions as well as how my other coeterie members were affected.Another thing I liked about the time skips from a rp perspective is it gave me reason to use the black emporium mirror to make myself look a little older each skip.I strongly believe we should have time skips in Da3.

I hated the time skip from Act 1 to Act 2.  Why did it take my Hawke that long to tell his romance option that he kinda liked them?  Seems like they spent a lot of time pissing around doing nothing.

What romance option was this?

[Ianamus]

JasonPogo wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

nightscrawl wrote...

@ Emzamination, that's all well and good, but how did you feel about the time gaps? Did you like them, dislike them, not care either way?

I enjoyed the 3 year skips in time, especially in regard to romances, I found it enjoyable to read the '3 years later' codex entries and see how my romance moved forward in those years based on my decisions as well as how my other coeterie members were affected.Another thing I liked about the time skips from a rp perspective is it gave me reason to use the black emporium mirror to make myself look a little older each skip.I strongly believe we should have time skips in Da3.

I hated the time skip from Act 1 to Act 2.  Why did it take my Hawke that long to tell his romance option that he kinda liked them?  Seems like they spent a lot of time pissing around doing nothing.

The skip between act 2 and act 3 for Fenris's romance is even weirder.

"That one night we slept with each other three years ago feels like it was just yesterday..."

[OdanUrr]

EJ107 wrote...

"That one night we slept with each other three years ago feels like it was just yesterday..."

People took their time in those days.

[JasonPogo]

Emzamination wrote...

JasonPogo wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

nightscrawl wrote...

@ Emzamination, that's all well and good, but how did you feel about the time gaps? Did you like them, dislike them, not care either way?

I enjoyed the 3 year skips in time, especially in regard to romances, I found it enjoyable to read the '3 years later' codex entries and see how my romance moved forward in those years based on my decisions as well as how my other coeterie members were affected.Another thing I liked about the time skips from a rp perspective is it gave me reason to use the black emporium mirror to make myself look a little older each skip.I strongly believe we should have time skips in Da3.

I hated the time skip from Act 1 to Act 2.  Why did it take my Hawke that long to tell his romance option that he kinda liked them?  Seems like they spent a lot of time pissing around doing nothing.

What romance option was this?

All of them.

[Emzamination]

JasonPogo wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

JasonPogo wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

nightscrawl wrote...

@ Emzamination, that's all well and good, but how did you feel about the time gaps? Did you like them, dislike them, not care either way?

I enjoyed the 3 year skips in time, especially in regard to romances, I found it enjoyable to read the '3 years later' codex entries and see how my romance moved forward in those years based on my decisions as well as how my other coeterie members were affected.Another thing I liked about the time skips from a rp perspective is it gave me reason to use the black emporium mirror to make myself look a little older each skip.I strongly believe we should have time skips in Da3.

I hated the time skip from Act 1 to Act 2.  Why did it take my Hawke that long to tell his romance option that he kinda liked them?  Seems like they spent a lot of time pissing around doing nothing.

What romance option was this?

All of them.

Everyone had different points of divergance as to why they couldn't enter a relationship right then and there.In act 1 hawke is poor and can barely feed him/herself, what time is there for a gf or bf at this point? Act 2 hawke has gotten his/her personal life in order and can now actively look for a lover without the threat of his/her family starving to death or wondering when the next bath will come, looming over their heads.It makes perfect sense to wait till act 2, realistically speaking

[Direwolf0294]

I think timeskips are only good in RPGs if they're used to show the players choices having an impact on the world. Like in the Fable games the world changes based on your choices. In Fable 2 you can choose to help a guard or help a criminal when you're a kid and when you come back to the city as an adult a whole section is either a slum or a thriving, happy community based on that choice you made. DA2 sadly did not have anything like that. Since the entire game took place in one city it would have been great if they showed Kirkwall changing over the years based on what you'd done. Instead the city stayed static for 10 years.

I hope DA3 doesn't have timeskips myself but if they do I hope BioWare uses them to show meaningful changes to the world.

[Melca36]

Emzamination wrote...

nightscrawl wrote...

@ Emzamination, that's all well and good, but how did you feel about the time gaps? Did you like them, dislike them, not care either way?

I enjoyed the 3 year skips in time, especially in regard to romances, I found it enjoyable to read the '3 years later' codex entries and see how my romance moved forward in those years based on my decisions as well as how my other coeterie members were affected.Another thing I liked about the time skips from a rp perspective is it gave me reason to use the black emporium mirror to make myself look a little older each skip.I strongly believe we should have time skips in Da3.

Considering its already been said that they won't be having them because they  didn't go over well with the majority of players, you better get used to the fact.

People don't want to read about something...they want to see it happen and be a part of it.   Its like skipping sections of a book. It did NOT work.

[Shevy]

The three big time skips are pretty needless because nearly nothing happens. Yes, the game tells you something happend, but you never see anything of that. Even after act two Kirkwall stays the same.

The biggest mistake imo was to skip the first year being a mercenary or smuggler. It could have been perfect to introduce you to Kirkwall and help to avoid immersion breaking moments like meeting npc's you as a player never seen before but they a greeting your character like an old friend, leaving you behind like "who the hell is that person and why knows he more about my character than I do?"

Introducing to the family would have helped to care about them, too. The first death felt like some stranger you met five minutes before at the side of a road died in front of you. For me it was like "ok, now this person is dead, whatever. I didn't know it anyway. Can we please go now ?"