430 réponses à ce sujet

[Banul]

[quote]Ryzaki wrote...

[quote]Banul wrote...

Doesn't matter. Both made a bad call based on emotion. That happens to people, sometimes.

[/quote]

And Tali's results in the extermination of a race. If you don't see that as worse that's fine. I do.

[quote]

I wasn't refering to the result

[Ryzaki]

Banul wrote...

I wasn't refering to the result

The result is a pretty big part of the issue.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 05 août 2012 - 05:46 .

[Conniving_Eagle]

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

I'm not talking about regular shock and the only reason I'm saying you don't because you still don't get the point I'm trying to get you to understand. In a moment like that, it can even leave you feeling like you can't even move. You call it pathetic, I call it you can't understand how a person feels at that moment. A moment like that can leave a person feeling like they aren't able to move, they can get a panic attack (which if you had one, you know how bad they are), they can leave a person confuse and disoriented.

Again, it has nothing to do with her own will, or her being a coward, or anything of that sort. Tali would have gladly kill a Legion to end the war if the scenario was different, she has killed countless of geth with no remorsce. But the way the scenario was presented, left her in extreme awe. It's not pathetic, you should learn a bit more on phychology then maybe you can understand better.

So if we subtitute the Quarians with the Krogan/Salarian and Tali with Wrex/Mordin they would've just stood there, blabbering too?

[Ryzaki]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

clennon8 wrote...

I suspect there's a disparity between what people say they would do, and what they would actually do if put in the situation of choosing between the quarians and the geth.

I think this is true about a lot of choices in ME, really. The ending also comes to mind (I doubt anyone actually would, in the situation, not choose Destroy).

Pssh. I'd pick control. Being an AI god? Heck yesss.

[Conniving_Eagle]

Let's face it. Tali, Garrus and Liara all play the role of Shepard's ****.

[Banul]

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

I'm not talking about regular shock and the only reason I'm saying you don't because you still don't get the point I'm trying to get you to understand. In a moment like that, it can even leave you feeling like you can't even move. You call it pathetic, I call it you can't understand how a person feels at that moment. A moment like that can leave a person feeling like they aren't able to move, they can get a panic attack (which if you had one, you know how bad they are), they can leave a person confuse and disoriented.

Again, it has nothing to do with her own will, or her being a coward, or anything of that sort. Tali would have gladly kill a Legion to end the war if the scenario was different, she has killed countless of geth with no remorsce. But the way the scenario was presented, left her in extreme awe. It's not pathetic, you should learn a bit more on phychology then maybe you can understand better.

So if we subtitute the Quarians with the Krogan/Salarian and Tali with Wrex/Mordin they would've just stood there, blabbering too?

Wrex and Mordin are both hardened veterans. Tali ended he right of passage like a year ago.

[Someone With Mass]

Chaotic-Fusion wrote...

The point is, even if Wrex killed Shepard it wouldn't cure the genophage. If Tali managed to kill Legion or at least damage him enough that there's a significant delay when he is uploading the code, she would have saved her people. If you side with the quarians Tali kills Legion in one blow. She could have tried.

And what if she just thought that the odds were stacked heavily against her and attacking either Legion or Shepard (by the way, the whole extermination thing is completely on Shepard's hands not Tali's) would only result in her dying?

Maybe I should rush a mugger armed with a knife or gun. There's always that slim chance that I might be able to karate chop and subdue him.

[Conniving_Eagle]

Banul wrote...

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

I'm not talking about regular shock and the only reason I'm saying you don't because you still don't get the point I'm trying to get you to understand. In a moment like that, it can even leave you feeling like you can't even move. You call it pathetic, I call it you can't understand how a person feels at that moment. A moment like that can leave a person feeling like they aren't able to move, they can get a panic attack (which if you had one, you know how bad they are), they can leave a person confuse and disoriented.

Again, it has nothing to do with her own will, or her being a coward, or anything of that sort. Tali would have gladly kill a Legion to end the war if the scenario was different, she has killed countless of geth with no remorsce. But the way the scenario was presented, left her in extreme awe. It's not pathetic, you should learn a bit more on phychology then maybe you can understand better.

So if we subtitute the Quarians with the Krogan/Salarian and Tali with Wrex/Mordin they would've just stood there, blabbering too?

Wrex and Mordin are both hardened veterans. Tali ended he right of passage like a year ago.

Again, if the Quarians survived the attack, do you think that would excuse her?

[Banul]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Chaotic-Fusion wrote...

The point is, even if Wrex killed Shepard it wouldn't cure the genophage. If Tali managed to kill Legion or at least damage him enough that there's a significant delay when he is uploading the code, she would have saved her people. If you side with the quarians Tali kills Legion in one blow. She could have tried.

And what if she just thought that the odds were stacked heavily against her and attacking either Legion or Shepard (by the way, the whole extermination thing is completely on Shepard's hands not Tali's) would only result in her dying?

Maybe I should rush a mugger armed with a knife or gun. There's always that slim chance that I might be able to karate chop and subdue him.

I once punched a bee who tried to sting me. It still stung me.

Totally related.

[Khajiit Jzargo]

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

I'm not talking about regular shock and the only reason I'm saying you don't because you still don't get the point I'm trying to get you to understand. In a moment like that, it can even leave you feeling like you can't even move. You call it pathetic, I call it you can't understand how a person feels at that moment. A moment like that can leave a person feeling like they aren't able to move, they can get a panic attack (which if you had one, you know how bad they are), they can leave a person confuse and disoriented.

Again, it has nothing to do with her own will, or her being a coward, or anything of that sort. Tali would have gladly kill a Legion to end the war if the scenario was different, she has killed countless of geth with no remorsce. But the way the scenario was presented, left her in extreme awe. It's not pathetic, you should learn a bit more on phychology then maybe you can understand better.

Ryzaki wrote...
Millions of people will die if she doesn't move. MILLIONS. So yes I'll see it as pathetic. If you disagree that's fine. People aren't made never disagree.

As for psychology *shrugs* I'm sure that'll be a great comfort to the few surviving Quarians that learn Tali did nothing to stop Shep and the Geth and then offed herself.

*Sigh*
 Being relied on, that would  just makes it worse.

You came off to me as an intellegent individual, I don't understand why you can't see from a physchology point of view. Well, I guess I can see where your coming from, I would agree with you If I didn't know how it felt. Your talking to a guy that has had panic disorders, been put into tight situations like this, and has had so many mental illnesess (OCD, HOCD, etc)  it's not even funny.

But anyway, I see where your coming from, but trust me, her decision wasn't because of cowardness, that is proven by the events of the past two previous games  That's obvious.

[Ryzaki]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Chaotic-Fusion wrote...

The point is, even if Wrex killed Shepard it wouldn't cure the genophage. If Tali managed to kill Legion or at least damage him enough that there's a significant delay when he is uploading the code, she would have saved her people. If you side with the quarians Tali kills Legion in one blow. She could have tried.

And what if she just thought that the odds were stacked heavily against her and attacking either Legion or Shepard (by the way, the whole extermination thing is completely on Shepard's hands not Tali's) would only result in her dying?

Maybe I should rush a mugger armed with a knife or gun. There's always that slim chance that I might be able to karate chop and subdue him.

Considering she jumps off the damn cliff anyway! Her death didn't matter more to her than her people living. Dying in the attempt to save them makes far more sense than doing nothing but cry while they die then jumping off the cliff.

She's dead either way. At least in one version she dies in the chance that others could live.

[Chaotic-Fusion]

Ryzaki wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Chaotic-Fusion wrote...

The point is, even if Wrex killed Shepard it wouldn't cure the genophage. If Tali managed to kill Legion or at least damage him enough that there's a significant delay when he is uploading the code, she would have saved her people. If you side with the quarians Tali kills Legion in one blow. She could have tried.

And what if she just thought that the odds were stacked heavily against her and attacking either Legion or Shepard (by the way, the whole extermination thing is completely on Shepard's hands not Tali's) would only result in her dying?

Maybe I should rush a mugger armed with a knife or gun. There's always that slim chance that I might be able to karate chop and subdue him.

Considering she jumps off the damn cliff anyway! Her death didn't matter more to her than her people living. Dying in the attempt to save them makes far more sense than doing nothing but cry while they die then jumping off the cliff.

She's dead either way. At least in one version she dies in the chance that others could live.

This.

[Khajiit Jzargo]

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

I'm not talking about regular shock and the only reason I'm saying you don't because you still don't get the point I'm trying to get you to understand. In a moment like that, it can even leave you feeling like you can't even move. You call it pathetic, I call it you can't understand how a person feels at that moment. A moment like that can leave a person feeling like they aren't able to move, they can get a panic attack (which if you had one, you know how bad they are), they can leave a person confuse and disoriented.

Again, it has nothing to do with her own will, or her being a coward, or anything of that sort. Tali would have gladly kill a Legion to end the war if the scenario was different, she has killed countless of geth with no remorsce. But the way the scenario was presented, left her in extreme awe. It's not pathetic, you should learn a bit more on phychology then maybe you can understand better.

So if we subtitute the Quarians with the Krogan/Salarian and Tali with Wrex/Mordin they would've just stood there, blabbering too?

Did you forget how I wrote how people react to it differently. Some people don't feel it at all and stand up for themselves, some become instantly hostile, some are left in shock, some can even faint, it's all different, you expect everyone to react the same?

[ObserverStatus]

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

1.) The Quarians tried to kill me, and decided to go to war even after I told them not to. If they want to die, it is their own damn fault. 

2.) 'The Geth only acted in self-defense. Do we deserve death?'

3.) The fact that the outcome of peace is solely dependant on the Quarians ceasing fire.

No objections here.

[Ryzaki]

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

I'm not talking about regular shock and the only reason I'm saying you don't because you still don't get the point I'm trying to get you to understand. In a moment like that, it can even leave you feeling like you can't even move. You call it pathetic, I call it you can't understand how a person feels at that moment. A moment like that can leave a person feeling like they aren't able to move, they can get a panic attack (which if you had one, you know how bad they are), they can leave a person confuse and disoriented.

Again, it has nothing to do with her own will, or her being a coward, or anything of that sort. Tali would have gladly kill a Legion to end the war if the scenario was different, she has killed countless of geth with no remorsce. But the way the scenario was presented, left her in extreme awe. It's not pathetic, you should learn a bit more on phychology then maybe you can understand better.

Ryzaki wrote...
Millions of people will die if she doesn't move. MILLIONS. So yes I'll see it as pathetic. If you disagree that's fine. People aren't made never disagree.

As for psychology *shrugs* I'm sure that'll be a great comfort to the few surviving Quarians that learn Tali did nothing to stop Shep and the Geth and then offed herself.

*Sigh*
 Being relied on, that would  just makes it worse.

You came off to me as an intellegent individual, I don't understand why you can't see from a physchology point of view. Well, I guess I can see where your coming from, I would agree with you If I didn't know how it felt. Your talking to a guy that has had panic disorders, been put into tight situations like this, and has had so many mental illnesess (OCD, HOCD, etc)  it's not even funny.

But anyway, I see where your coming from, but trust me, her decision wasn't because of cowardness, that is proven by the events of the past two previous games  That's obvious.

Yeah still not seeing it s any less pathetic. Especially since she decides to jump off the cliff right afterwards. Couldn't deal with the consequences of inaction.

So you've stood somewhere in a panic while you were the admiral or anything else of something and they were killed enmasse and you did nothing to stop it? 

She never had to go against Shepard in any decision. Everytime she did she backed down even when backing done results in the extermination of her species. So yeah it could still be seen as cowardice.

But *shrugs* maybe I don't understand. The only times I panicked were when my life and my life alone was in danger and each time I defended myself. I didn't stand there and simper.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 05 août 2012 - 05:59 .

[Someone With Mass]

Banul wrote...

Wrex and Mordin are both hardened veterans. Tali ended he right of passage like a year ago.

They're not driven by emotions like the quarians are either. Expecting every single character to act the same way or rationalize the same way is just nonsensical and I think that would result in a more generic character more than anything else.

Especially since it happens over and over again.

[agu123]

Ryzaki wrote...

So she's instead spineless and dependant on Shepard to make her decisions for her? I find this worse.

All of the squadmates let you decide things for them, even when your decision affects their private matters or a big part of their species (see all of the loyalty missions in ME2).

Shepard has some actual experience leading infantry or ships against the Reapers. Tali is merely a soldier who was suddenly promoted to admiral.

Plus, I don't see it that way. She killed herself because she didn't know what to do, because the person who she had been trusting since day one has just decided that the Geth are more helpful than the Quarians, and because her people are all dead due to her commander's decision.

She could indeed take action against Shepard and Legion, but... what if the Geth were really more helpful than the Quarians? Would Tali be willing to risk the entire galaxy just to save her own kind? I don't know, though I know the Geth would.

[Someone With Mass]

Ryzaki wrote...

Considering she jumps off the damn cliff anyway! Her death didn't matter more to her than her people living. Dying in the attempt to save them makes far more sense than doing nothing but cry while they die then jumping off the cliff.

She's dead either way. At least in one version she dies in the chance that others could live.

Okay, here comes the part that you really have failed on and on again to answer:

HOW does it make sense?

[Ryzaki]

agu123 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

So she's instead spineless and dependant on Shepard to make her decisions for her? I find this worse.

All of the squadmates let you decide things for them, even when your decision affects their private matters or a big part of their species (see all of the loyalty missions in ME2).

Shepard has some actual experience leading infantry or ships against the Reapers. Tali is merely a soldier who was suddenly promoted to admiral.

Plus, I don't see it that way. She killed herself because she didn't know what to do, because the person who she had been trusting since day one has just decided that the Geth are more helpful than the Quarians, and because her people are all dead due to her commander's decision.

She could indeed take action against Shepard and Legion, but... what if the Geth were really more helpful than the Quarians? Would Tali be willing to risk the entire galaxy just to save her own kind? I don't know, though I know the Geth would.

None have let Shepard decide if their people should be wiped out though. None. Mordin has to be convinced by a specific set of actions that what he's doing will backfire.

And...Tali being that dependant on Shepard sickens me to be honest. She rather take his word and kill herself than fight for her people's right to live? 

I'm pretty sure she would be. They're her people they should be more important to her than Shep's word.

...honestly this interpretation makes me feel ill. Makes Tali into one of those codepedant female characters I utterly loathe.

[Ryzaki]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Considering she jumps off the damn cliff anyway! Her death didn't matter more to her than her people living. Dying in the attempt to save them makes far more sense than doing nothing but cry while they die then jumping off the cliff.

She's dead either way. At least in one version she dies in the chance that others could live.

Okay, here comes the part that you really have failed on and on again to answer:

HOW does it make sense?

How does what make sense? Hm? And keep ignoring the fact that she dies regardless and one option at least leaves the chance for her people to survive while the other has her qqing and doing nothing while they're slaughtered.

[Pitznik]

dreman9999 wrote...

@Pitznik 

Do you understand that allow does not mean manipulated? How can I say this agein...The heritics allowed them selve to be indoctrinated. The were not tricked or forced into it. They were willing indoctrinated servents. They are nit the first. Javik tells you of others races like this.

If they were willing, they weren't indoctrinated. No matter. They were willing to put advantages of Reaper technology over the lives of organics, doesn't matter if instead of being indoctrinated or before bieng indoctrinated. They choose to be an enemy, not were forced to be an enemy.

[Conniving_Eagle]

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

I'm not talking about regular shock and the only reason I'm saying you don't because you still don't get the point I'm trying to get you to understand. In a moment like that, it can even leave you feeling like you can't even move. You call it pathetic, I call it you can't understand how a person feels at that moment. A moment like that can leave a person feeling like they aren't able to move, they can get a panic attack (which if you had one, you know how bad they are), they can leave a person confuse and disoriented.

Again, it has nothing to do with her own will, or her being a coward, or anything of that sort. Tali would have gladly kill a Legion to end the war if the scenario was different, she has killed countless of geth with no remorsce. But the way the scenario was presented, left her in extreme awe. It's not pathetic, you should learn a bit more on phychology then maybe you can understand better.

So if we subtitute the Quarians with the Krogan/Salarian and Tali with Wrex/Mordin they would've just stood there, blabbering too?

Did you forget how I wrote how people react to it differently. Some people don't feel it at all and stand up for themselves, some become instantly hostile, some are left in shock, some can even faint, it's all different, you expect everyone to react the same?

I'd say it goes against Tali's character to not do anything, especially not try and kill Legion. I could understand her not doing anything if Shepard romanced her, though. Otherwise it feels pretty contrived, just like Shepard and crew not intervening when a god damn sick drell was fighting a Cerberus assassin.

[Ryzaki]

Pitznik wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

@Pitznik 

Do you understand that allow does not mean manipulated? How can I say this agein...The heritics allowed them selve to be indoctrinated. The were not tricked or forced into it. They were willing indoctrinated servents. They are nit the first. Javik tells you of others races like this.

If they were willing, they weren't indoctrinated. No matter. They were willing to put advantages of Reaper technology over the lives of organics, doesn't matter if instead of being indoctrinated or before bieng indoctrinated. They choose to be an enemy, not were forced to be an enemy.

Agreed. The heretics were heretics because they wanted to be. They weren't forced. (I really can't stand rewriting the heretics. Better to let them die as them.)

[Conniving_Eagle]

It even would've been better if she atleast tried, then Shepard stops and restrains her with a Paragon interrupt and she commits suicide after. If not, Legion stops to kill her.