430 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

I'm not talking about regular shock and the only reason I'm saying you don't because you still don't get the point I'm trying to get you to understand. In a moment like that, it can even leave you feeling like you can't even move. You call it pathetic, I call it you can't understand how a person feels at that moment. A moment like that can leave a person feeling like they aren't able to move, they can get a panic attack (which if you had one, you know how bad they are), they can leave a person confuse and disoriented.

Again, it has nothing to do with her own will, or her being a coward, or anything of that sort. Tali would have gladly kill a Legion to end the war if the scenario was different, she has killed countless of geth with no remorsce. But the way the scenario was presented, left her in extreme awe. It's not pathetic, you should learn a bit more on phychology then maybe you can understand better.

So if we subtitute the Quarians with the Krogan/Salarian and Tali with Wrex/Mordin they would've just stood there, blabbering too?

Did you forget how I wrote how people react to it differently. Some people don't feel it at all and stand up for themselves, some become instantly hostile, some are left in shock, some can even faint, it's all different, you expect everyone to react the same?

I'd say it goes against Tali's character to not do anything, especially not try and kill Legion. I could understand her not doing anything if Shepard romanced her, though. Otherwise it feels pretty contrived, just like Shepard and crew not intervening when a god damn sick drell was fighting a Cerberus assassin.

Or Shep's constant dreams of starbrat and him completely not acknowleding that the Reaper overlord for some reason took the form of the child in his dreams.

crap like that made me start believing in the Indoctrination Theory.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 05 août 2012 - 06:06 .

[Ryzaki]

Conniving_Eagle wrote..
I'd say it goes against Tali's character to not do anything, especially not try and kill Legion. I could understand her not doing anything if Shepard romanced her, though. Otherwise it feels pretty contrived, just like Shepard and crew not intervening when a god damn sick drell was fighting a Cerberus assassin.

Agreed with this and this:

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

It even would've been better if she atleast tried, then Shepard stops and restrains her with a Paragon interrupt and she commits suicide after. If not, Legion stops to kill her.

That would've felt more consistent and not utterly ridculous.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 05 août 2012 - 06:08 .

[zeypher]

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

It even would've been better if she atleast tried, then Shepard stops and restrains her with a Paragon interrupt and she commits suicide after. If not, Legion stops to kill her.

THIS!!!!! The thing i wanted was tali to atleast try

[The Heretic of Time]

Quarians.

I'm not going to support genocide for a bunch of walking talking toasters no matter how hard BioWare tries to make me feel sympathy for those toasters.

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 05 août 2012 - 06:09 .

[Conniving_Eagle]

I don't consider myself that biased in this decision. I don't hate Tali or the quarians, I actually really like them, they're both great. But in this scenario, Legion's logic prevails for me. The Geth only acted in self defense, they don't deserve death. It is not justice. The Quarians don't die because Legion uploads the code, the Quarians die because they won't listen to reason and cease fire.

Modifié par Conniving_Eagle, 05 août 2012 - 06:11 .

[Khajiit Jzargo]

Ryzaki wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

I'm not talking about regular shock and the only reason I'm saying you don't because you still don't get the point I'm trying to get you to understand. In a moment like that, it can even leave you feeling like you can't even move. You call it pathetic, I call it you can't understand how a person feels at that moment. A moment like that can leave a person feeling like they aren't able to move, they can get a panic attack (which if you had one, you know how bad they are), they can leave a person confuse and disoriented.

Again, it has nothing to do with her own will, or her being a coward, or anything of that sort. Tali would have gladly kill a Legion to end the war if the scenario was different, she has killed countless of geth with no remorsce. But the way the scenario was presented, left her in extreme awe. It's not pathetic, you should learn a bit more on phychology then maybe you can understand better.

Ryzaki wrote...
Millions of people will die if she doesn't move. MILLIONS. So yes I'll see it as pathetic. If you disagree that's fine. People aren't made never disagree.

As for psychology *shrugs* I'm sure that'll be a great comfort to the few surviving Quarians that learn Tali did nothing to stop Shep and the Geth and then offed herself.

*Sigh*
 Being relied on, that would  just makes it worse.

You came off to me as an intellegent individual, I don't understand why you can't see from a physchology point of view. Well, I guess I can see where your coming from, I would agree with you If I didn't know how it felt. Your talking to a guy that has had panic disorders, been put into tight situations like this, and has had so many mental illnesess (OCD, HOCD, etc)  it's not even funny.

But anyway, I see where your coming from, but trust me, her decision wasn't because of cowardness, that is proven by the events of the past two previous games  That's obvious.

Yeah still not seeing it s any less pathetic. (1) Especially since she decides to jump off the cliff right afterwards. Couldn't deal with the consequences of inaction.

(2) So you've stood somewhere in a panic while you were the admiral or anything else of something and they were killed enmasse and you did nothing to stop it? 

(3) She never had to go against Shepard in any decision. Everytime she did she backed down even when backing done results in the extermination of her species. So yeah it could still be seen as cowardice.

(4) But *shrugs* maybe I don't understand. The only times I panicked were when my life and my life alone was in danger and each time I defended myself. I didn't stand there and simper.

@Bold1- Just because you don't understand something doesn't mean it's pathetic. And she commited suicide because it is done, She has nothing to live for, her whole life was helping her species, and now she's witnessing their downfall, not because she feels guilty.

@Bold2-It's like you ignored my complete statement on emotions clashing with extreme situations. And again, she was choosen as a formality, not for military expertise.

@Bold3-Please tell me when she has ever backed down from something because Shepard opposed it.

@Bold4- Again, people react differently, and you being in danger is far different from the lives of millions, just saying...

[Raylol]

I'd blow up the vacuum cleaners and let the actual living people live.

[Someone With Mass]

Ryzaki wrote...

How does what make sense? Hm? And keep ignoring the fact that she dies regardless and one option at least leaves the chance for her people to survive while the other has her qqing and doing nothing while they're slaughtered.

Wow. It's just sad that you can't get past that point.

If she dies anyway, then what's the point in fighting to the death? Knowing that she at least tried before her people was slaughtered anyway?

In case you haven't noticed (although with you being stuck on that intensely trivial detail about her crying, I can see why you don't) quarians believe more in discussing their problems rather than physically fight over them. That's what separates them from the krogans.

At that point, it was simply too much for her to handle. If you say that's a weak character, I'd say that you don't really know much about the character to begin with, so your entire argument is just wasted on you whining about someone being emotionally disturbed during a time of war.

Which is just a waste of everyone's time, really.

[Khajiit Jzargo]

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

I'm not talking about regular shock and the only reason I'm saying you don't because you still don't get the point I'm trying to get you to understand. In a moment like that, it can even leave you feeling like you can't even move. You call it pathetic, I call it you can't understand how a person feels at that moment. A moment like that can leave a person feeling like they aren't able to move, they can get a panic attack (which if you had one, you know how bad they are), they can leave a person confuse and disoriented.

Again, it has nothing to do with her own will, or her being a coward, or anything of that sort. Tali would have gladly kill a Legion to end the war if the scenario was different, she has killed countless of geth with no remorsce. But the way the scenario was presented, left her in extreme awe. It's not pathetic, you should learn a bit more on phychology then maybe you can understand better.

So if we subtitute the Quarians with the Krogan/Salarian and Tali with Wrex/Mordin they would've just stood there, blabbering too?

Did you forget how I wrote how people react to it differently. Some people don't feel it at all and stand up for themselves, some become instantly hostile, some are left in shock, some can even faint, it's all different, you expect everyone to react the same?

I'd say it goes against Tali's character to not do anything, especially not try and kill Legion. I could understand her not doing anything if Shepard romanced her, though. Otherwise it feels pretty contrived, just like Shepard and crew not intervening when a god damn sick drell was fighting a Cerberus assassin.

It's not about character. The way the scenario was presented left her in a mental breakdown, even a very strong willed person might have been broken down....

[Khajiit Jzargo]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

How does what make sense? Hm? And keep ignoring the fact that she dies regardless and one option at least leaves the chance for her people to survive while the other has her qqing and doing nothing while they're slaughtered.

Wow. It's just sad that you can't get past that point.

If she dies anyway, then what's the point in fighting to the death? Knowing that she at least tried before her people was slaughtered anyway?

In case you haven't noticed (although with you being stuck on that intensely trivial detail about her crying, I can see why you don't) quarians believe more in discussing their problems rather than physically fight over them. That's what separates them from the krogans.

At that point, it was simply too much for her to handle. If you say that's a weak character, I'd say that you don't really know much about the character to begin with, so your entire argument is just wasted on you whining about someone being emotionally disturbed during a time of war.

Which is just a waste of everyone's time, really.

Another point, is that maybe she could have though that the Quarians might have stop firing too. Better than just dying.

[Ryzaki]

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

I'm not talking about regular shock and the only reason I'm saying you don't because you still don't get the point I'm trying to get you to understand. In a moment like that, it can even leave you feeling like you can't even move. You call it pathetic, I call it you can't understand how a person feels at that moment. A moment like that can leave a person feeling like they aren't able to move, they can get a panic attack (which if you had one, you know how bad they are), they can leave a person confuse and disoriented.

Again, it has nothing to do with her own will, or her being a coward, or anything of that sort. Tali would have gladly kill a Legion to end the war if the scenario was different, she has killed countless of geth with no remorsce. But the way the scenario was presented, left her in extreme awe. It's not pathetic, you should learn a bit more on phychology then maybe you can understand better.

Ryzaki wrote...
Millions of people will die if she doesn't move. MILLIONS. So yes I'll see it as pathetic. If you disagree that's fine. People aren't made never disagree.

As for psychology *shrugs* I'm sure that'll be a great comfort to the few surviving Quarians that learn Tali did nothing to stop Shep and the Geth and then offed herself.

*Sigh*
 Being relied on, that would  just makes it worse.

You came off to me as an intellegent individual, I don't understand why you can't see from a physchology point of view. Well, I guess I can see where your coming from, I would agree with you If I didn't know how it felt. Your talking to a guy that has had panic disorders, been put into tight situations like this, and has had so many mental illnesess (OCD, HOCD, etc)  it's not even funny.

But anyway, I see where your coming from, but trust me, her decision wasn't because of cowardness, that is proven by the events of the past two previous games  That's obvious.

Yeah still not seeing it s any less pathetic. (1) Especially since she decides to jump off the cliff right afterwards. Couldn't deal with the consequences of inaction.

(2) So you've stood somewhere in a panic while you were the admiral or anything else of something and they were killed enmasse and you did nothing to stop it? 

(3) She never had to go against Shepard in any decision. Everytime she did she backed down even when backing done results in the extermination of her species. So yeah it could still be seen as cowardice.

(4) But *shrugs* maybe I don't understand. The only times I panicked were when my life and my life alone was in danger and each time I defended myself. I didn't stand there and simper.

@Bold1- Just because you don't understand something doesn't mean it's pathetic. And she commited suicide because it is done, She has nothing to live for, her whole life was helping her species, and now she's witnessing their downfall, not because she feels guilty.

@Bold2-It's like you ignored my complete statement on emotions clashing with extreme situations. And again, she was choosen as a formality, not for military expertise.

@Bold3-Please tell me when she has ever backed down from something because Shepard opposed it.

@Bold4- Again, people react differently, and you being in danger is far different from the lives of millions, just saying...

1. She watched their downfall and did nothing to stop it other than cry. Her killing herself to me at least is cowardice to fce up to her inaction. Interpreatation and all that jazz.

2. That has nothing to do with what you bolded. Whether or not she had military expertise she was in charge of those people. She had a vested interest in them living (if the previous games are anything to go by). Again I ask were you put in charge (prepared or not) of millions of lives and let them be lost while you did nothing? 

3. Her father in ME2. Shep chooses to expose the data and she does nothing to stop him other than plead.

4. Yes I know. I'd rather hope I didn't stand there and cry while millions were killed. I'd be pretty disgusted at myself and would most likely off myself later too. Out of guilt and shame.

[Someone With Mass]

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...
Another point, is that maybe she could have though that the Quarians might have stop firing too. Better than just dying.

True. Although, with that nutjob Gerrel at the helm, it'd been unlikely.

[Ryzaki]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

How does what make sense? Hm? And keep ignoring the fact that she dies regardless and one option at least leaves the chance for her people to survive while the other has her qqing and doing nothing while they're slaughtered.

Wow. It's just sad that you can't get past that point.

If she dies anyway, then what's the point in fighting to the death? Knowing that she at least tried before her people was slaughtered anyway?

In case you haven't noticed (although with you being stuck on that intensely trivial detail about her crying, I can see why you don't) quarians believe more in discussing their problems rather than physically fight over them. That's what separates them from the krogans.

At that point, it was simply too much for her to handle. If you say that's a weak character, I'd say that you don't really know much about the character to begin with, so your entire argument is just wasted on you whining about someone being emotionally disturbed during a time of war.

Which is just a waste of everyone's time, really.

Yes! The chance that she could stop Legion before her people died and save them is enough to fight for.

IN case you haven't noticed the Quarians have started a war with the intention of fighting over their problems. That's why the whole war started. Cute comment though.

Yes she's weak. I found her becoming pretty weak in ME2 (and disturbingly reliant on Shepard). It seemed to only worsen in ME3. As for whining. One could say the same to you about me. If her emotional disturbance results in millions dying while she does nothing but cry heck yes it's a weak moment.

So you could just stop responding to me you know. No one's stopping you. Since your time is so precious and what not.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 05 août 2012 - 06:21 .

[Conniving_Eagle]

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Conniving_Eagle wrote...
I'd say it goes against Tali's character to not do anything, especially not try and kill Legion. I could understand her not doing anything if Shepard romanced her, though. Otherwise it feels pretty contrived, just like Shepard and crew not intervening when a god damn sick drell was fighting a Cerberus assassin.

It's not about character. The way the scenario was presented left her in a mental breakdown, even a very strong willed person might have been broken down....

FFS, she wasn't having a mental breakdown. And if she did, she is completely dysfunctional.

"Upload the code Legion." (In other words, at this rate your entire race is going to die)

"What?!?"

"Deal with it"

"Okay "

Any sensical person would've intervened. Legion intervened if the opposite option is selected. This scene kills the character of Tali'Zorah, the Quarian Codex.

Modifié par Conniving_Eagle, 05 août 2012 - 06:25 .

[Someone With Mass]

And what did the quarians do before they started that war? Well, they argued about it, of course.

[agu123]

Ryzaki wrote...

None have let Shepard decide if their people should be wiped out though. None. Mordin has to be convinced by a specific set of actions that what he's doing will backfire.

Wrex on Virmire. Legion on the Heretic station. Both decisions affect their people.

And...Tali being that dependant on Shepard sickens me to be honest. She rather take his word and kill herself than fight for her people's right to live?

I'm pretty sure she would be. They're her people they should be more important to her than Shep's word.

You're sure she would do that? Why? You've been arguing that she's spineless for the past 30 minutes and she can't fight.

...honestly this interpretation makes me feel ill. Makes Tali into one of those codepedant female characters I utterly loathe.

Honestly, I couldn't care less what characters you loathe or love, since you apparently do not see that Tali has been that type of character since Mass Effect 2, which was when she stopped being a talking codex entry.

What I'm saying is that Tali might actually understand that the Geth would do more damage to the Reapers and agree with the person who's been saving the Galaxy since 2183.

My favorite part was when you said that the soldier who thinks her commander is right interpretation makes you feel ill, while your stupid girl who throws herself off a cliff because she's a spineless character interpretation is somehow better.

Modifié par agu123, 05 août 2012 - 06:26 .

[Khajiit Jzargo]

Ryzaki wrote...


1. She watched their downfall and did nothing to stop it other than cry. Her killing herself to me at least is cowardice to fce up to her inaction. Interpreatation and all that jazz.

2. That has nothing to do with what you bolded. Whether or not she had military expertise she was in charge of those people. She had a vested interest in them living (if the previous games are anything to go by). Again I ask were you put in charge (prepared or not) of millions of lives and let them be lost while you did nothing? 

3. Her father in ME2. Shep chooses to expose the data and she does nothing to stop him other than plead.

4. Yes I know. I'd rather hope I didn't stand there and cry while millions were killed. I'd be pretty disgusted at myself and would most likely off myself later too. Out of guilt and shame.

1-Again, it's not directly her fault. You don't know what a mental breakdown and panic attack is. Like I said, you can't guess what was going on her head at the moment.

2-She's know to be a horrible leader? If you make a random person, promote them as a leader, that doesn't mean they know how to handle tough situations, responsible of millions of lives or not

3-She can't do anything else, Shepard is her defense and has to speak for her, Shepard holds ultimate power and she can't do anything about except kill him, which is absurd.

4-Again, you keep implying it's her direct fault for not acting, many things played into her head. Don't assume it's that simple.

[Ryzaki]

Someone With Mass wrote...

And what did the quarians do before they started that war? Well, they argued about it, of course.

They argued to solve it with violence. The put guns on their liveships, on their civilian ships, they're not super special pacifist species that solve issues with words.  None of the species in ME are. They're all too willing to get their hands dirty if they sense a benefit.

Goes for our species too.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 05 août 2012 - 06:26 .

[Conniving_Eagle]

Someone With Mass wrote...

And what did the quarians do before they started that war? Well, they argued about it, of course.

War was the decision of the Conclave, and if they opposed it well-enough, it would have resulted in a civil war. I guess those that opposed war more reluctantly went along with it.

Modifié par Conniving_Eagle, 05 août 2012 - 06:26 .

[Khajiit Jzargo]

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Conniving_Eagle wrote...
I'd say it goes against Tali's character to not do anything, especially not try and kill Legion. I could understand her not doing anything if Shepard romanced her, though. Otherwise it feels pretty contrived, just like Shepard and crew not intervening when a god damn sick drell was fighting a Cerberus assassin.

It's not about character. The way the scenario was presented left her in a mental breakdown, even a very strong willed person might have been broken down....

FFS, she wasn't having a mental breakdown. And if she did, she is completely dysfunctional.

"Upload the code Legion." (In other words, at this rate your entire race is going to die)

"What?!?"

"Deal with it"

"Okay "

Any sensical person would've intervened. Legion intervened if the opposite option is selected. This scene kills the character of Tali'Zorah, the Quarian Codex.

Absurd and incorrect. Someone put in a situation like that could have even fainted. The state of awe a person can get from a scenario like that can leave them frozen, so please let's stop it right there.

I do agree 100%, her personality was out of character in this scene.

Modifié par Khajiit Jzargo, 05 août 2012 - 06:28 .

[Ryzaki]

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

And what did the quarians do before they started that war? Well, they argued about it, of course.

War was the decision of the Conclave, and if they opposed it well-enough, it would have resulted in a civil war. I guess those that opposed war more reluctantly went along with it.

I will never understand that.

Yeah get a homeworld a nice place to put a bunch of Quarians in an nice planet where they can't really flee in a hurry during a Reaper invasion. It's not like the Reapers are going to all other homeworlds and reaping the heck out of the populations! <_<

Darwin Award to the fullest. My Shep just lets them have it.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 05 août 2012 - 06:28 .

[Someone With Mass]

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

FFS, she wasn't having a mental breakdown. And if she did, is completely dysfunctional.

"Upload the code Legion." (In other words, at this rate your entire races is going to die)

"What?!?"

"Deal with it"

"Okay "

Any sensical person would've intervened. Legion intervened if the opposite option is selected. This scene kills the character of Tali'Zorah, the Quarian Codex.

Okay, nothing is saying that her people is going to die, since Legion can upload the code without any slaughtering of either side happening, so she's hesitant.

The whole thing depends on whenever you stop the fleet from firing or letting them continue the battle with the upgraded geth, so if anything, it's all Shepard's fault for being passive. And don't tell me that the inexperienced admiral, who was struggling to give the fleet orders before is going to pull a miracle out of nowhere and convince them to stop.

Shepard has more experience than she does about leadership by far and he just lets it happen? Blame yourself for your incompetence, not others.

[Conniving_Eagle]

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Conniving_Eagle wrote...
I'd say it goes against Tali's character to not do anything, especially not try and kill Legion. I could understand her not doing anything if Shepard romanced her, though. Otherwise it feels pretty contrived, just like Shepard and crew not intervening when a god damn sick drell was fighting a Cerberus assassin.

It's not about character. The way the scenario was presented left her in a mental breakdown, even a very strong willed person might have been broken down....

FFS, she wasn't having a mental breakdown. And if she did, she is completely dysfunctional.

"Upload the code Legion." (In other words, at this rate your entire race is going to die)

"What?!?"

"Deal with it"

"Okay "

Any sensical person would've intervened. Legion intervened if the opposite option is selected. This scene kills the character of Tali'Zorah, the Quarian Codex.

Absurd and incorrect. Someone put in a situation like that could have even fainted. The state of awe a person can get from a scenario like that can leave them frozen, so please let's stop it right there.

I do agree 100%, her personality was out of character in this scene.

Um, okay. I'll just stop arguing now out of utter confusion.

[Chaotic-Fusion]

The "you don't know what's going on in her head" argument is BS. She could be thinking about ponies for all I care. People are defined by their actions. Her mental breakdown doomed (if we assume she could have killed Legion) the Quarian race. If I was one of the surviving Quarians I would be pretty pissed, I wouldn't be thinking about what was going on in her head. That comes into play only for the people who knew her.
That scene was completely out of character. But Bioware did that a lot in ME3. Dramatic tension, I suppose.