430 réponses à ce sujet

[AxStapleton]

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

AxStapleton wrote...

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

AxStapleton wrote...


 How would you feel if your computer suddenly started talking back to you?

The Quarians jumped the gun. I don't know who would immediately resort to destroying their computer if it started talking.

Willfully picking on a single line of my post.

Am I saying the Quarians were right? No. Besides we are not given an in depth timescale of how things happened so it is impossible to say whether they had gone to turn them off straight away. The response Legion makes to when  Shepard asks whether that was the first time a Geth asked whether it had a soul, it wasn't, so there may well have been a lag between the Geth's sentience and the Quarians action.

P.S. I wouldn't destroy my computer, I'd turn it off. Which is what the Quarians tried intitally.

It's a poor example to begin with. The Geth weren't doing something out of the ordinary, they were starting to think in a direction that the Quarians didn't want. When the Geth started questioning their existence, the Quarians tried to deacitivate them because they believed the geth would want independance. And by the Council's laws, AI are entitled to such rights.

It fits the Frankenstein scenario.

There's a nice quote by Arthur C. Clarke: "The higher the intelligence, the greater the degree of co-operativeness. If there is ever a war between men and machines, it is easy to guess who will start it.”

The Quarians didn't even want them to think at all. All they thought they were doing was creating advanced VI's that could easily share information and operate their machinery.

Also according to Council law, AI's are not allowed to be created at all so I don't know where you got that law.

[Zardoc]

It's not the geth fault. How was the ones who brought them to war and armed them? Was it the geth?

Let me ask you this...If your in a war fighting and suddenly you see a child with a rocket lancher in hand ready to shot and kill you and your squad, would you let him? Would you kill that child to save yourself and your squad?

That's the same cancept with the geth.

...what?

You mean the first war the quarian tried to kill the geth.

Did you even know what happened in the morning war?

Geth gain sentience, quarians panic and try to shut them down, geth resist, it comes to full scale war, geth wipe out 99% of quarian populace (including kids, elderly and civilians in general), let the rest flee. Yeah, totally innocent those poor geth.

Modifié par Zardoc, 05 août 2012 - 03:48 .

[JesseLee202]

dreman9999 wrote...

JesseLee202 wrote...

Chaotic-Fusion wrote...

Zardoc wrote...
Perhaps. The fact they committed genocide still stands, as does the fact that they never actually told anyone they wanted peace.

The conditions for peace are having the Quarians stand down. The Geth commit genocide in self-defense, the Quarians to reclaim their planet. You do not need to convince the Geth to not kill the Quarians, you have to convince the Quarians to stand down.
The Geth are pacifists, we know that. So to convince people not to attack you have to tell them you want peace? I'd imagine not being aggressive would be enough.

MORNING WAR. Ever heard of it?

You clear haven't.  Because that's a pro to the pro-geth argument. That was the war that happed because the quarians tried to kill the geth

I think you are missing the little part where the Geth kill 99% of the Quarian population in that war. That is beyond "self-defense"

[agu123]

dreman9999 wrote...

2. Every ship the quarians had were geared to attack. Everyone. All the ships attacked. It's not the geth fault that the quarians forced their civilian to fight in a unprovoced war. Any thing the geth do in self defence is warrented because every quarian  was attacking. Every last one.

You probably do not understand how the military works. It's the Admiralty Board that gives the orders, and the Captains are forced to follow these orders. The alternative is to be labeled as traitors, to be killed, or to be exiled which is even worse than being killed. Once again, the wounded Quarian machinist on Rannoch tells Shepard that the civilian fleet doesn't want the war.

[Chaotic-Fusion]

JesseLee202 wrote...

Chaotic-Fusion wrote...

Zardoc wrote...
Perhaps. The fact they committed genocide still stands, as does the fact that they never actually told anyone they wanted peace.

The conditions for peace are having the Quarians stand down. The Geth commit genocide in self-defense, the Quarians to reclaim their planet. You do not need to convince the Geth to not kill the Quarians, you have to convince the Quarians to stand down.
The Geth are pacifists, we know that. So to convince people not to attack you have to tell them you want peace? I'd imagine not being aggressive would be enough.

MORNING WAR. Ever heard of it?

You mean when the Geth demonstrated they didn't want the death of their creators, only to have the latter attack them again and again?
Every quarian ship was geared for attack. Every quarian ship. What could they have done? Attack just a few of those ships and hope for the best?

[Samtheman63]

quarians try and destroy all geth and geth defend themselves. quarians end up getting themselves killed by attacking the geth

[Zardoc]

Chaotic-Fusion wrote...

JesseLee202 wrote...

Chaotic-Fusion wrote...

Zardoc wrote...
Perhaps. The fact they committed genocide still stands, as does the fact that they never actually told anyone they wanted peace.

The conditions for peace are having the Quarians stand down. The Geth commit genocide in self-defense, the Quarians to reclaim their planet. You do not need to convince the Geth to not kill the Quarians, you have to convince the Quarians to stand down.
The Geth are pacifists, we know that. So to convince people not to attack you have to tell them you want peace? I'd imagine not being aggressive would be enough.

MORNING WAR. Ever heard of it?

You mean when the Geth demonstrated they didn't want the death of their creators, only to have the latter attack them again and again?
Every quarian ship was geared for attack. Every quarian ship. What could they have done? Attack just a few of those ships and hope for the best?

Like when they still wiped out about 99% of their creators? Yeah.

Modifié par Zardoc, 05 août 2012 - 03:49 .

[JesseLee202]

Chaotic-Fusion wrote...

JesseLee202 wrote...

Chaotic-Fusion wrote...

Zardoc wrote...
Perhaps. The fact they committed genocide still stands, as does the fact that they never actually told anyone they wanted peace.

The conditions for peace are having the Quarians stand down. The Geth commit genocide in self-defense, the Quarians to reclaim their planet. You do not need to convince the Geth to not kill the Quarians, you have to convince the Quarians to stand down.
The Geth are pacifists, we know that. So to convince people not to attack you have to tell them you want peace? I'd imagine not being aggressive would be enough.

MORNING WAR. Ever heard of it?

You mean when the Geth demonstrated they didn't want the death of their creators, only to have the latter attack them again and again?
Every quarian ship was geared for attack. Every quarian ship. What could they have done? Attack just a few of those ships and hope for the best?

They were not geared like that in the morning war! 

I am starting to wonder if you actually know what you are saying...

[dreman9999]

Someone With Mass wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
Let's see...

The moment the became sentent, the quarians tried to kill them.
Every time the geth offer peace, the quarians attack them.
The geth were willing to help with the reapers....THE BLEEDING QUARIAN ADMERAL BOARD DESIDE IT BEST TO TRY AND KILL THEM AND FORCE THEM INTO THE REAPERS HANDS!!!!!
The we get Legion to try and help us with it and suddenly they want to dicect  it/them.

I'm sorry but the quarians forced this war...Anything the geth do to protect themselves is justified. If you offer peace and the other side just keep attacking and you can stop them by killing them off, what would you do?

Dude, the geth admit that they barely knew what they were doing when they achieved sentience, which was even more of a reason for the quarians at the time to put them down.

If they want peace, why don't they just leave the Perseus Veil and find some uninhabited star system they can use to complete their Dyson bubble?

They're just asking for trouble by holding the ground that belongs to the quarians.

Not to mention that they can spend a lot more time traveling through space than organics can, since they don't need food or water.

This whole war could have been avoided so easily, it's not even funny.

So your say that because someone does not understands, it's ok to kill them?
The geth never attacked first, they just ask a question? That is never a good reson to kill any because.
The geth became sentent and the quarians tried to kill them to control them.That's it. The quarian majority were in the wrong. the geth never was hostal till the quarians attacked first. Added they can't just leave the veil. Doing so would cause more hostilities with organics because people would thing the geth are tring to invade the rest of the galexy.

[Samtheman63]

in self defense

[Pitznik]

What happened at Morning War and who's fault was that is irrelevant. Quarians of now are not the same Quarians.

Quarians -need- Rannoch back, if they are ever to have a shot at suitless life. It will be hard on Rannoch, it will be probably impossible anywhere else.

Geth at worst are hostile towards organic life (heretics), at best completely indifferent (all the other Geth never said a word about heretics to anyone else, even if they knew some serious homicide is brewing).

[Barquiel]

I saved the quarians in my "canon" game (peace wasn't an option because I didn't recruit Tali in ME2).

The geth deserve an on-screen death and Admiral Xen is awesome.

[Chaotic-Fusion]

JesseLee202 wrote...
I think you are missing the little part where the Geth kill 99% of the Quarian population in that war. That is beyond "self-defense"

And where is it stated that the geth killed 99% of the Quarian population in the Morning War?

[Khajiit Jzargo]

It can be either seen as a misunderstanding or they can be both to blame, you can't shift the blame all to one group, that's bogus.

If I had to choose one for whatever reason, I choose the Quarians, why? Because I'm not sure I can trust the Geth, in a military stand point their more effective in both what they bring to the fight and how other races don't look at them as hostile, and because if I'm force to commit genocide, I might as well kill the one that has the least people if their both equally wrong.

But in my personal point of view, I find the Geth to be more wrong.

Modifié par Khajiit Jzargo, 05 août 2012 - 03:52 .

[dreman9999]

JesseLee202 wrote...

Chaotic-Fusion wrote...

JesseLee202 wrote...

Chaotic-Fusion wrote...

Zardoc wrote...
Perhaps. The fact they committed genocide still stands, as does the fact that they never actually told anyone they wanted peace.

The conditions for peace are having the Quarians stand down. The Geth commit genocide in self-defense, the Quarians to reclaim their planet. You do not need to convince the Geth to not kill the Quarians, you have to convince the Quarians to stand down.
The Geth are pacifists, we know that. So to convince people not to attack you have to tell them you want peace? I'd imagine not being aggressive would be enough.

MORNING WAR. Ever heard of it?

You mean when the Geth demonstrated they didn't want the death of their creators, only to have the latter attack them again and again?
Every quarian ship was geared for attack. Every quarian ship. What could they have done? Attack just a few of those ships and hope for the best?

They were not geared like that in the morning war! 

I am starting to wonder if you actually know what you are saying...

IMy second point was not aimed at the morning war. Also, the quarian were more armed in the first war anyway.

[Conniving_Eagle]

Someone With Mass wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Depends on which Shepard I'm playing. If it was my prime, and if Tali killed herself because I sided with the geth, I would jump over that cliff with her. Every other Shepard I have would side with the geth being they are the victims and more reliable in combat then the quarians.

Uh, you do know that the geth literally killed 99% of the quarian race, right? Among many defenseless elderly, sick and children.

Both sides have done things wrong, but don't try to make the geth look like the victims, because they're really not. If they didn't want the war, maybe they should have done something about it, like trying to communicate with the quarians and negotiate instead of sitting on their asses for three centuries.

Sure, it was completely wrong by the quarians to destroy the Dyson bubble, I admit that, but that's small potatoes compared to what the geth did.

Guess what the Quarians were doing before? There were defenseless Geth as well.
Although I think if the Geth wanted to eradicate the Quarians they would have chased down the migrant fleet instead of isolating themselves within the Perseus Veil.

[crazyaz]

JesseLee202 wrote...

Chaotic-Fusion wrote...

JesseLee202 wrote...

Chaotic-Fusion wrote...

Zardoc wrote...
Perhaps. The fact they committed genocide still stands, as does the fact that they never actually told anyone they wanted peace.

The conditions for peace are having the Quarians stand down. The Geth commit genocide in self-defense, the Quarians to reclaim their planet. You do not need to convince the Geth to not kill the Quarians, you have to convince the Quarians to stand down.
The Geth are pacifists, we know that. So to convince people not to attack you have to tell them you want peace? I'd imagine not being aggressive would be enough.

MORNING WAR. Ever heard of it?

You mean when the Geth demonstrated they didn't want the death of their creators, only to have the latter attack them again and again?
Every quarian ship was geared for attack. Every quarian ship. What could they have done? Attack just a few of those ships and hope for the best?

They were not geared like that in the morning war! 

I am starting to wonder if you actually know what you are saying...

Hey! Stoppit! You're giving the geth all the credit! Don't you remember the dyson sphere where the Geth Huggers were hugging geth to make the militant quarries stop? and they were all like BLAMBLAMBLAM!!! and all the Geth Huggers died ;_; So, I'd say that the Quarians themselves took out a fair chunk of their own population in the Morning War

[Chaotic-Fusion]

JesseLee202 wrote...

They were not geared like that in the morning war! 

I am starting to wonder if you actually know what you are saying...

I thought you were talking about priority: Rannoch. The geth didn't kill 99% of the Quarian population in the morning war. As far as I know.

[BatmanPWNS]

Quarians because Tali and I don't care about toasters.

[Zardoc]

dreman9999 wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
Let's see...

The moment the became sentent, the quarians tried to kill them.
Every time the geth offer peace, the quarians attack them.
The geth were willing to help with the reapers....THE BLEEDING QUARIAN ADMERAL BOARD DESIDE IT BEST TO TRY AND KILL THEM AND FORCE THEM INTO THE REAPERS HANDS!!!!!
The we get Legion to try and help us with it and suddenly they want to dicect  it/them.

I'm sorry but the quarians forced this war...Anything the geth do to protect themselves is justified. If you offer peace and the other side just keep attacking and you can stop them by killing them off, what would you do?

Dude, the geth admit that they barely knew what they were doing when they achieved sentience, which was even more of a reason for the quarians at the time to put them down.

If they want peace, why don't they just leave the Perseus Veil and find some uninhabited star system they can use to complete their Dyson bubble?

They're just asking for trouble by holding the ground that belongs to the quarians.

Not to mention that they can spend a lot more time traveling through space than organics can, since they don't need food or water.

This whole war could have been avoided so easily, it's not even funny.

So your say that because someone does not understands, it's ok to kill them?
The geth never attacked first, they just ask a question? That is never a good reson to kill any because.
The geth became sentent and the quarians tried to kill them to control them.That's it. The quarian majority were in the wrong. the geth never was hostal till the quarians attacked first. Added they can't just leave the veil. Doing so would cause more hostilities with organics because people would thing the geth are tring to invade the rest of the galexy.

1. What do you do with a rabid dog? Yeah, don't answer that.
2. The quarians didn't attack the geth either. They tried to shut them down. From their point of view they tried to deactivate the geth before they became fully selfaware AIs that could become a danger.
3. Of course the geth could've left the Veil. Until the heretics came along, the galaxy knew just about nothing about the geth in the first place.

[hoodaticus]

Quarians are the higher lifeform by virtue of being one creational gradient closer to God.

[agu123]

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

It can be either seen as a misunderstanding or they can be both to blame, you can't shift the blame all to one group, that's bogus.

If I had to choose one for whatever reason, I choose the Quarians, why? Because I'm not sure I can trust the Geth, in a military stand point their more effective in both what they bring to the fight and how other races don't look at them as hostile, and because if I'm force to commit genocide, I might as well kill the one that has the least people if their both equally wrong.

But in my personal point of view, I find the Geth to be more wrong.

What? You're not committing genocide if you have no alternative.

[Cobalt2113]

I saved the Quarians on my main playthrough (femshep). I did this for two main reasons.

1. Geth don't suffer when you kill them, nor do they have women and children.

2. As opposed to the millions of Quarians, the geth consensus is really only a single consciousness. Like a computer with many terminals through which it can be accessed. So it wasn't a hard choice really. Millions of lives or one consciousness?

[dreman9999]

Zardoc wrote...

Chaotic-Fusion wrote...

JesseLee202 wrote...

Chaotic-Fusion wrote...

Zardoc wrote...
Perhaps. The fact they committed genocide still stands, as does the fact that they never actually told anyone they wanted peace.

The conditions for peace are having the Quarians stand down. The Geth commit genocide in self-defense, the Quarians to reclaim their planet. You do not need to convince the Geth to not kill the Quarians, you have to convince the Quarians to stand down.
The Geth are pacifists, we know that. So to convince people not to attack you have to tell them you want peace? I'd imagine not being aggressive would be enough.

MORNING WAR. Ever heard of it?

You mean when the Geth demonstrated they didn't want the death of their creators, only to have the latter attack them again and again?
Every quarian ship was geared for attack. Every quarian ship. What could they have done? Attack just a few of those ships and hope for the best?

Like when they still wiped out about 99% of their creators? Yeah.

You keep missing the point that their creators armed every ship they had and tried to the geth. And the cause of this is the fact their creators tried to kill them the first time they became sentent.

No matter how you cut it, the geth were forced into action. The quarian armed everyone down to their childrem to fight in this war. You can blame the geth for killing them off in self defence.