268 réponses à ce sujet

[Airscale]

Mandalore313 wrote...
@ airscale -> I'm guessing you either don't know what you're talking about yet giving out "advice" or you're trolling -> not worth my time in any case.

LOL! Says the troll!

The numbers are in this thread, go back through and take a gander... also it's disconcerting to see you trying to fabricate an argument and rebuttal with yourself, have you even been reading the other posts in this thread... like say this post: social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/343/new_post/13525110/13527781

So calm down Captain Comeback! Just because you don't agree with someone doesn't make them a troll... and just because you can't use the gun effectively doesn't make it a bad gun. Get over it. Grow up. Deal with it. I've used every gun in this game... some I like, some I don't, and the Crusader I love! That makes it an awesome gun for me which I've been extremely successful with in gold/plat games.

[Rokayt]

It would be nice if they turned 10% of the damage into 2 shot that is fired in a tight spread around the slug, and added 15% damage that adds another 4 bits of shot, fired in a slightly looser spread around the slug.

That way it would be both a sniper, and a slug shotgun.

[Ashen One]

Airscale wrote...

just because you can't use the gun effectively doesn't make it a bad gun.

I can dominate Gold with a Batarian Sentinel, Drell Vanguard, or Quarian Engineer... But they are all obviously underpowered.

I can dominate with a Crusader, but that doesn't mean I'm not gimping myself by neglecting to take an obviously superior weapon, or a combination of the superior weapon, and a utility weapon without suffering the same ridiculous encumbrance penalty.

Modifié par Ashen Earth, 05 août 2012 - 10:00 .

[Ziegrif]

Mandalore313 wrote...

@ ziegrif -> The smart choke is useless on the crusader. Try using it without it and you will see why.
My response has nothing to do with speedruns, it has to do with this gun not being good at anything.
It's worse than sniper rifles because it doesnt do as much damage as they do, it's worthless as a shotgun for not bypassing shield gate or being particularly good at cqc. For christ's sake even an assault rifle is better. Every single other gold shotgun except the disciple is better at everything in comparison. When 3 different types of weapons outclass the one in question it's time to start asking questions about it's usefulness don't you think?

I can understand wanting to try something different but this doesn't make the gun better.

PS : If you guys still are impressed with this gun or "can do wonders with it" then maybe you should check out your other, (mathematically proven) better options.

I understand your point and the need to show that there are better options.
I'm just bored out of my skull from using said better options.

But the gun works. No matter how you rationalize it, it works. A score of 160k plus is plausible with a good old full extraction with mostly using headshots from it.

Also i admit the smart choke mistake. I listen to my gut and personal experience before numbers and others.
It's proven invaluable to me and a great chance of pace.
I broke into gold with SI, GI and claymore I'm sick of using the claymore.
The Crusader gave me a nice little thing to fall back to so I could get the fun back.
When I'm ready I'll go back to the claymore. For example I still think Claymore Vorcha is a lot of fun.

But what I am a bit baffled is your attitude.
You were right but came in yelling your opinion like a selfish child making at least me dislike you and start an argument over it.

Ashen on the other hand was calm and patient and backed up his claims much better.
He even compared teh Crusader to it's real counterpart. The Saber.
Your attitude is my problem not your opinion.
I expect better from one of the better players in these forums.

Modifié par Ziegrif, 05 août 2012 - 10:01 .

[Airscale]

Ashen Earth wrote...

Airscale wrote...

Ashen Earth wrote...
Personal preferrence has no place in a discussion about weapon/class efficiency. You like the Crusader, that's fine. I'm not saying you're bad for using it, or that you shouldn't use it. I'm saying that the weapon is underpowered when compared with a similar weapon for the sake of efficiency.

Incorrect! Personal preference does in fact matter. For example, I loathe the scorpian, however I know friends of mine that rock with it... while I can use other guns just as effectively.

Also to comment on the other previous point, I don't use handguns on a Solider class, does that make them bad... nope. There's two classes I would use the Crusader on, with at least 1 character on a 3rd class... that's about the same as what I would use the Saber on. The argument that having a gun only playable on a few characters out of 40+ isn't valid.

Now I don't believe the weapon is underpowered (but I wouldn't say no to a buff, I just don't think it really needs it)... I'm saying you use other weapons more effectively (hint: this is where preference comes into play), while I use the crusader more effectively then certain other weapons. The person using of the gun generally makes all the difference. I've come to think of the crusader as the anti-krysae really... you have to be really accurate, time your shots well, and put yourself in a position to be successful with it otherwise it's darn near useless (again, the person using the gun makes all the difference). It's like asking why don't you just use the Krysae (pre-nerf) on everything if you're just looking strictly at numbers... which is a ridiculous assertion. That's why there's a variety of guns and not just 3 or 4... different strokes for different folks! So trust me, personal perference is very valid.

Way to completely miss the point.

Let me clarify: The point was that while you can use a Crusader, and perform one function on the battlefield, I can dual wield a Saber with a Scorpion and do the exact same thing you can, but have added utility in being able to CC and nuke spawns because the Crusader is just that damn heavy, even at level X.

How much you like the Crusader, or whether or not you like the Saber, or Scorpion is totally irrelevant. The Saber, and Crusader are so similar in damage and function, thet they might as well be the same gun (except one is obviously heavier, and much harder to level) The Scorpion was only mentioned as an example of the kind of utility a player can miss out on by taking a Crusader over a Saber, and suffering the ridiculous 30% encumbrance penalty

Basically, the Crusader needs to weigh less, or do more damage to give it a unique niche.

Nope, you're still having to switch weapons, and wait for things to explode with your scorp, not to mention the reload of the saber... while I can throw on a marksman or a battlesuit and just mow down everything with my well-to-do fire rate... not too mention the potential to do more damage... and I find the Crusader to be more accurate than either of those two weapons unless you're throwing a scope on your saber... with the crusader you can't be off a sliver or it's ineffective. The saber is takes more shots to do the same thing... which adds up to the Crusader being far more effective.

Now, does it weigh a lot... yes! They could drop it, but then everyone would spam it and they'd end up putting the weight back on it. The weight is there for a reason IMO.

[Ashen One]

Airscale wrote...


The numbers are in this thread, go back through and take a gander... also it's disconcerting to see you trying to fabricate an argument and rebuttal with yourself, have you even been reading the other posts in this thread... like say this post: social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/343/new_post/13525110/13527781

For the record, the "numbers" in this thread only prove my initial post true: While the Crusader at rank V and higher will do more damage with a shot than the Saber, the difference is so miniscule, that it makes no real difference in game.

Modifié par Ashen Earth, 05 août 2012 - 10:06 .

[WaffleCrab]

I love how misguided some peoples views on the weapons are. Crusader should not be considered a shotgun, it is for all intents and purposes an elephant rifle(a high caliber rifle w/o a scope) if you view it as anything else, your doing it wrong. it does the same damage as a black widow(or slightly more) Weighs about the same, has 1 more ammo in the clip, higher refire rate, as accurate if not more(albeit no scope, which i actually prefer since i want to see around me) as black widow, has the same innate cover penetration as widow and BW. has a higher ammo capacity than BW.

You would have to have something wrong with your eyes(or behind em) to think this weapon is crap, it is a sniper rifle, that lets you see around you, still maintain pinpoint accuracy and slap on a melee damage mod.

And this is actually one of my staple weapons at lv3 on gold and platinum. extremely effective at dropping hardened targets and targets behind cover. especially on destroyer or demolisher or GI.

[Ziegrif]

Ashen Earth wrote...

I would have to know exactly how all of those bonuses stack, but I believe the headshot multiplier is 250% for all weapons except for the Kishock which gets a 300% multiplier.

A Gold Centurion has 1687.5 shields.

A headshot from a Saber X with an extnded barrel would do 1672.5 damage to a Centurion's shields without any class damage bonus passives.

A headshot from a Crusader X with a high caliber barrel would do 1900 damage to a Centurion's shields, and break the shield gate, (only 10% of 212.5 damage would be inflicted on his health) without any class damage bonus passives.

Assuming you had one point in your class passive, it would take two headshots, or one headshot and 3 body shots to kill said Centurion with either weapon.

Intredasting.
So a Saber would leave a Centurions shield gate intact?
But a Crusader would no doubt demolish it.

They're pretty even when you think about it.

And were missing one key element here.
Real time combat.
Saber is lighter so a caster would be better off with one than a crusader and with almost the same brass damage really.
Only difference that theoretically a power should be used to break the shield gate so a 1-shot-kill on the centurion could be achieved?

These 2 guns reallt bear a striking similarity to the Javelin. All 3 are slaves of the shield gate.

Modifié par Ziegrif, 05 août 2012 - 10:09 .

[WaffleCrab]

Ashen Earth wrote...

Airscale wrote...


The numbers are in this thread, go back through and take a gander... also it's disconcerting to see you trying to fabricate an argument and rebuttal with yourself, have you even been reading the other posts in this thread... like say this post: social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/343/new_post/13525110/13527781

For the record, the "numbers" in this thread only prove my initial post true: While the Crusader at rank V and higher will do more damage with a shot than the Saber, the difference is so miniscule, that it makes no real difference in game.

Sabre has no cover penetration, and you cant make sabre pinpoint accurate without slapping a scope on(which limits our FoV). Those are what allways make me pick up crusader instead of the sabre.I think that should be taken to consideration also

Modifié par WaffleCrab, 05 août 2012 - 10:13 .

[Ashen One]

Airscale wrote...

Ashen Earth wrote...

Airscale wrote...

Ashen Earth wrote...
Personal preferrence has no place in a discussion about weapon/class efficiency. You like the Crusader, that's fine. I'm not saying you're bad for using it, or that you shouldn't use it. I'm saying that the weapon is underpowered when compared with a similar weapon for the sake of efficiency.

Incorrect! Personal preference does in fact matter. For example, I loathe the scorpian, however I know friends of mine that rock with it... while I can use other guns just as effectively.

Also to comment on the other previous point, I don't use handguns on a Solider class, does that make them bad... nope. There's two classes I would use the Crusader on, with at least 1 character on a 3rd class... that's about the same as what I would use the Saber on. The argument that having a gun only playable on a few characters out of 40+ isn't valid.

Now I don't believe the weapon is underpowered (but I wouldn't say no to a buff, I just don't think it really needs it)... I'm saying you use other weapons more effectively (hint: this is where preference comes into play), while I use the crusader more effectively then certain other weapons. The person using of the gun generally makes all the difference. I've come to think of the crusader as the anti-krysae really... you have to be really accurate, time your shots well, and put yourself in a position to be successful with it otherwise it's darn near useless (again, the person using the gun makes all the difference). It's like asking why don't you just use the Krysae (pre-nerf) on everything if you're just looking strictly at numbers... which is a ridiculous assertion. That's why there's a variety of guns and not just 3 or 4... different strokes for different folks! So trust me, personal perference is very valid.

Way to completely miss the point.

Let me clarify: The point was that while you can use a Crusader, and perform one function on the battlefield, I can dual wield a Saber with a Scorpion and do the exact same thing you can, but have added utility in being able to CC and nuke spawns because the Crusader is just that damn heavy, even at level X.

How much you like the Crusader, or whether or not you like the Saber, or Scorpion is totally irrelevant. The Saber, and Crusader are so similar in damage and function, thet they might as well be the same gun (except one is obviously heavier, and much harder to level) The Scorpion was only mentioned as an example of the kind of utility a player can miss out on by taking a Crusader over a Saber, and suffering the ridiculous 30% encumbrance penalty

Basically, the Crusader needs to weigh less, or do more damage to give it a unique niche.

Nope, you're still having to switch weapons, and wait for things to explode with your scorp, not to mention the reload of the saber...

Irrelevant. I can do both, which is the point. We can both snipe Centurions from across the map, but you're not going to blow up a Phantom spawn, or CC the hack objective with a Crusader. I can handle every combat situation effectively, at the same encumbrance penalty that you would suffer for equipping yourself to deal with one.

Airscale wrote...

The saber is takes more shots to do the same thing... which adds up to the Crusader being far more effective.

If you could actually read, you would see that they both take the same number of shots to do the same thing in any real in game situation

Airscale wrote...

Now, does it weigh a lot... yes! They could drop it, but then everyone would spam it and they'd end up putting the weight back on it. The weight is there for a reason IMO.

so why are you opposed to a damage buff again?

[Najarati]

I have to admit, I don't like the Crusader; it's heavy, its accuracy is odd (I seem to miss a lot with it as opposed to the Sabre, Valiant, and Carnifex), and its damage doesn't impress me. Even more annoying is the fact I'm up to the Crusader VII now...

Modifié par Najarati, 05 août 2012 - 10:17 .

[Ashen One]

Ziegrif wrote...

Ashen Earth wrote...

I would have to know exactly how all of those bonuses stack, but I believe the headshot multiplier is 250% for all weapons except for the Kishock which gets a 300% multiplier.

A Gold Centurion has 1687.5 shields.

A headshot from a Saber X with an extnded barrel would do 1672.5 damage to a Centurion's shields without any class damage bonus passives.

A headshot from a Crusader X with a high caliber barrel would do 1900 damage to a Centurion's shields, and break the shield gate, (only 10% of 212.5 damage would be inflicted on his health) without any class damage bonus passives.

Assuming you had one point in your class passive, it would take two headshots, or one headshot and 3 body shots to kill said Centurion with either weapon.

Intredasting.
So a Saber would leave a Centurions shield gate intact?
But a Crusader would no doubt demolish it.

Without any points in passives, yes. They will function the same with even one point in their class passive skill, thanks to the shield gate. With no shield gate, the Crusader would have the clear advantage.

Ziegrif wrote...
They're pretty even when you think about it.

And were missing one key element here.
Real time combat.
Saber is lighter so a caster would be better off with one than a crusader and with almost the same brass damage really.
Only difference that theoretically a power should be used to break the shield gate so a 1-shot-kill on the centurion could be achieved?

With points in the passive skill, yes. It would be a OSK with a headshot from either weapon.

Ziegrif wrote...
These 2 guns reallt bear a striking similarity to the Javelin. All 3 are slaves of the shield gate.

Except the Saber suffers to a much smaller degree, due to having an 8 round clip. the Javelin however...

WaffleCrab wrote...


Sabre has no cover
penetration, and you cant make sabre pinpoint accurate without slapping a
scope on(which limits our FoV). Those are what allways make me pick up
crusader instead of the sabre.

The Crusader is more accurate unless the Saber fired from cover, in which case they have about the same accuracy. The Crusader has more recoil.

And like I said earlier, the Saber's lack of AP capabilities are easily mitigated by an AP mod. If you use an AP mod on a Crusader, you'll have better cover penetration, but you would either lose the advantage of damage, to the Saber, or sacrifice a ton of spare ammo, again giving the advantage to the Saber, assuming the Saber is using AP/EB.

Modifié par Ashen Earth, 05 août 2012 - 10:22 .

[WaffleCrab]

Ashen Earth wrote...


If you could actually read, you would see that they both take the same number of shots to do the same thing in any real in game situation.

Your example was only for centurions, try doing the example on something bigger say an atlas or prime, i regularry bring those down faster with my crusader than people using a level or 2 higher sabre.
And numbers alone dont make the gun worthy, in game, using crusader is better for me for many reasons. The cover pen. pinpont accuracy. even right after a shot and out of cover, with sabre you gotta wait for the reticule to retract back for it to be accurate, no such problem with the crusader. I find myself going back to crusader when that elephant rifle power is needed, instead of the sabre, ingame it simply outperforms the sabre.

[TMB903]

Pros: pinpoint accurate, innate AP(not sure how much)

Cons: Extremely heavy, shield gate, high recoil

My verdict: I like it for it's pinpoint accuracy but not much else...Two N7 promo guns are really good and two are really bad...We shouldn't dread getting any N7 weapon but should be excited to get them

[Ogrinash]

It needs to do about 800 damage per shot in comparison to its weight (200 point increase); 200 less than Wraith, but more shots per clip (plus a higher DPS).

[kr3g]

I like it. For me currently here is only 1 drawback - it's harder to lvl-up than a saber And, well, a scope would be nice as well.

[GroverA125]

It's basically a Valiant with an extra 25% power in each shot, an extra shot in the mag, no scope and enough recoil to put you off target on even the largest targets at mid-range. While I admit it could do with a buff somewhere, it's not entirely useless, in the right hands, it's deadly.

[Ziegrif]

Najarati wrote...

I have to admit, I don't like the Crusader; it's heavy, its accuracy is odd (I seem to miss a lot with it as opposed to the Sabre, Valiant, and Carnifex), and its damage doesn't impress me. Even more annoying is the fact I'm up to the Crusader VII now...

I'd trade my Hurricane and Valiant For those 7 levels XD.

Ashen Earth wrote...
Except the Saber suffers to a much smaller degree, due to having an 8 round clip. the Javelin however...

I love the Javelin unconditionally. But I do understand that it needs a bit more something to break into a stride.

What would it take to put 2 shots into a Javelins reload cycle?
Will it be possible with the gear we have and destroyer?

If I remember right the Crusader had 4 bullets in it's reload cycle so the Saber does outclass it aswell. It's also harder to aim the Crusader than the Saber. Sabers even got a scope option. Only thing is The saber is not in the shotgun tab.

Also I'm more of a buff everything, deal with nerfs kind of guy. So no matter what I post I advocate buffs.
So bring on more damage and lesss weight for the crusader.

Also, when someone posts IMO or in their personal opinion arguing with said point will result in nothing good. And I know this is hypocritical of me, but it's nice to remind myself of that fact every once in a while I guess.

[WaffleCrab]

Ashen Earth wrote...

The Crusader is more accurate unless fired from cover, in which case they have about the same accuracy. The Crusader has more recoil.

And like I said earlier, the Saber's lack of AP capabilities are easily mitigated by an AP mod. If you use an AP mod on a Crusader, you'll have better cover penetration, but you would either lose the advantage of damage, to the Saber, or sacrifice a ton of spare ammo, again giving the advantage to the Saber.

Yet when fired from cover you still need to wait for a while for the sabres reticule to retract. and if you use ap mod on sabre, you sacrifice something else. Slap on a choke 5 and barrel 5 on crusader and it is a beast. sabre will have a hard time keeping up with it. less ammo or not. i never find myself running from ammo box to ammo box all the time, i find the ammo somewhat plentifull as i dont tend to **** up my shots. Also if you put on a AP mod on the sabre, you will lose the extra damage from the barrel when shooting through cover, no such thing with the innate cover penetration with crusader, it penetrates the cover with full damage, same as BW and Widow.

And going back to accuracy, no they dont have anywhere close to the same accuracy, i am saying with choke it is pinpoint accurate and w/o pretty damn close. And in and out of cover it is more accurate than sabre, even if you slap on a scope on the sabre, you cant touch crusader in terms of accuracy. and if you do slap the scope on it, you in turn end up sacrificing something with the sabre, penetration or barrel being the most likely ones.

[WaffleCrab]

Ziegrif wrote...

Najarati wrote...

I have to admit, I don't like the Crusader; it's heavy, its accuracy is odd (I seem to miss a lot with it as opposed to the Sabre, Valiant, and Carnifex), and its damage doesn't impress me. Even more annoying is the fact I'm up to the Crusader VII now...

I'd trade my Hurricane and Valiant For those 7 levels XD.

Ashen Earth wrote...
Except the Saber suffers to a much smaller degree, due to having an 8 round clip. the Javelin however...

I love the Javelin unconditionally. But I do understand that it needs a bit more something to break into a stride.

What would it take to put 2 shots into a Javelins reload cycle?
Will it be possible with the gear we have and destroyer?

If I remember right the Crusader had 4 bullets in it's reload cycle so the Saber does outclass it aswell. It's also harder to aim the Crusader than the Saber. Sabers even got a scope option. Only thing is The saber is not in the shotgun tab.

Also I'm more of a buff everything, deal with nerfs kind of guy. So no matter what I post I advocate buffs.
So bring on more damage and lesss weight for the crusader.

Also, when someone posts IMO or in their personal opinion arguing with said point will result in nothing good. And I know this is hypocritical of me, but it's nice to remind myself of that fact every once in a while I guess.

i tried with the gear and destroyer using claymore and widow, no increase of ammo for reload cycles. they stayed at 1 each :S

[Ashen One]

WaffleCrab wrote...

Ashen Earth wrote...


If you could actually read, you would see that they both take the same number of shots to do the same thing in any real in game situation.

Your example was only for centurions, try doing the example on something bigger say an atlas or prime, i regularry bring those down faster with my crusader than people using a level or 2 higher sabre.

My comparision was for a level X Saber, and a level X Crusader. With the lack of a headshot multiplier, the Crusader's advantage of increased damage becomes even more diminished. Look at the DPS calculations in the chart I posted earlier, to see the extent of the Crusader's DPS advantage over the Saber.

Then consider that no one has a level X Crusader.

WaffleCrab wrote...

And numbers alone dont make the gun worthy, in game, using crusader is better for me for many reasons. The cover pen. pinpont accuracy. even right after a shot and out of cover, with sabre you gotta wait for the reticule to retract back for it to be accurate, no such problem with the crusader.

The Saber can penetrate cover with an AP mod. The Crusader has innate cover penetration, which is why I did not select the shredder mod for the Crusader in the chart I posted. Instead, I selected the spare ammo mod. With those mods selected, both of the weapons function very similarly, yet the Saber has a greater range of weapon mods available to it.

The Saber also has a very important in game advantage that you overlooked: It staggers enemies. It's been awhile since I've used the Crusader, It would be nice if someone could clarify if the Crusader is capable of that without headshots...

WaffleCrab wrote...

I find myself going back to crusader when that elephant rifle power is needed, instead of the sabre, ingame it simply outperforms the sabre.

It outperforms the Saber at rank X by 100 damage per shot, which is hardly enough to justify the absurd weight, and how hard it is to level the Crusader as opposed to the Saber.

Modifié par Ashen Earth, 05 août 2012 - 10:36 .

[Ashen One]

WaffleCrab wrote...

Ashen Earth wrote...

The Crusader is more accurate unless fired from cover, in which case they have about the same accuracy. The Crusader has more recoil.

And like I said earlier, the Saber's lack of AP capabilities are easily mitigated by an AP mod. If you use an AP mod on a Crusader, you'll have better cover penetration, but you would either lose the advantage of damage, to the Saber, or sacrifice a ton of spare ammo, again giving the advantage to the Saber.

Yet when fired from cover you still need to wait for a while for the sabres reticule to retract. and if you use ap mod on sabre, you sacrifice something else. Slap on a choke 5 and barrel 5 on crusader and it is a beast.

Lost all credibility.

Carry on.

[Rokayt]

Why not split it into two, half to 60% damage shots?

Then it would bypass shield gate.

[Carnagedude504]

It's mediocre on the lower difficulties if you realize that the Crusader is more akin to a marksman's weapon like the Mattock and that you should stay at medium range while aiming for headshots, but that mediocrity diminishes on the higher difficulties, as enemies can survive headshots and you would probably be using powers more frequently.

[Ziegrif]

Ashen Earth wrote...

WaffleCrab wrote...

Ashen Earth wrote...

The Crusader is more accurate unless fired from cover, in which case they have about the same accuracy. The Crusader has more recoil.

And like I said earlier, the Saber's lack of AP capabilities are easily mitigated by an AP mod. If you use an AP mod on a Crusader, you'll have better cover penetration, but you would either lose the advantage of damage, to the Saber, or sacrifice a ton of spare ammo, again giving the advantage to the Saber.

Yet when fired from cover you still need to wait for a while for the sabres reticule to retract. and if you use ap mod on sabre, you sacrifice something else. Slap on a choke 5 and barrel 5 on crusader and it is a beast.

Lost all credibility.

Carry on.

Just out of curiosity how much does the Choke 5 affect accuracy on the Crusader.
If I saw that pic right it was something like 5 so 2.5?
And what would that drop off even mean?
I could shoot a microbe from 500 yards?

Modifié par Ziegrif, 05 août 2012 - 10:43 .