91 réponses à ce sujet

[They call me a SpaceCowboy]

Amid all the criticism directed at DA2, on that stood out the most for me was the lack of replayability. This was largely because the imported desisions were so sparce.

There was next to no mention of the warden at all, with the slight exception of the Dalish origin and Amell mage. Import any other origin and noone, not even Anders, talks about him/her. Not even a passing comment about them being a Human, Dwarf, Elf etc.

Bhelen as king got one quest added. Harrowmont as king got nothing.

Brief cameos were added for various companions, but even these didn't reflect the epilogues that appeared for them at the end of DAO/Awakening, with the exception of Alistairs fate.

I expect even less from DA3. If you import a DA2 game, there isn't much from DA2 to be imported. Maybe Ander's fate, but nothing else that happened was even player choice, so will appear as canon in DA3.

I don't see there being much point in even providing an import feature in DA3. Just choose a set background like you could in DA2.

EDIT:

In DA2 itself many choices were railroaded tin the same ending result. There were some differences you could get during play but they ended up the same by the end of the game.

Due to all this, there is not much replayability in DA2 for me.

Modifié par Shinian2, 05 août 2012 - 07:41 .

[andar91]

Nothing's been announced yet, but in this panel (), Mike Laidlaw mentions that they want to keep importing saved games (around 4:40).

In my opinion, it isn't that big a deal because this isn't Mass Effect. I think decisions within the game should have a big impact (an area that needs improvement based on 2), but cross-games, I don't think it always makes sense to have a huge amount of tie-ins. Some, for sure, but we'll probably be going to completely different countries in DA3. Alistair being king probably doesn't matter that much in Par Vollen (just as an example).

As far as replayability goes, though, I agree. They're saying they want to make our decisions matter-hopefully they can deliver on that promise. We'll just have to wait and see.

[They call me a SpaceCowboy]

I see what yuo mean. I played Origins 6 times, one for each origin, and was disappointed that there wasn't much point in importing them all into DA2. I could barely play DA2 twice since there is so little variety.

Internal to DA2 there was also not much replayability either

[Kileyan]

I'm fine with Bioware not being perfectly faithful to everyones save games. Way too many times I have heard a Bioware dev say they were going to include this or that, do this, add have this party member, then say they can't do it because the budget and bean counters frown upon spending too much time on content that a lot of people won't see, due to years old save game files.

I just want a good game and a good story with a sense that I am playing the same character(if I am playing the same character). It really isn't important to me if every single choice I make is reflected in sequels. If fact, quite a few of the choices they felt like they had to throw into the games were jarring and annoying, obviously thrown in with little work, just so they could tout X number of choices are carried over between games. (mostly talking about Mass Effect here)

Regardless of how they handle carrying over saves games, I still hope I never see another ending like DA2. It was just too lazy, to have the exact same battle no matter who you sided with. It is fine to have the exact same ending battles in games that have a big bad boss as the goal and the end. DA2's ending was just silly.

[andar91]

Kileyan wrote...

I'm fine with Bioware not being perfectly faithful to everyones save games. Way too many times I have heard a Bioware dev say they were going to include this or that, do this, add have this party member, then say they can't do it because the budget and bean counters frown upon spending too much time on content that a lot of people won't see, due to years old save game files.

I just want a good game and a good story with a sense that I am playing the same character(if I am playing the same character). It really isn't important to me if every single choice I make is reflected in sequels. If fact, quite a few of the choices they felt like they had to throw into the games were jarring and annoying, obviously thrown in with little work, just so they could tout X number of choices are carried over between games. (mostly talking about Mass Effect here)

Regardless of how they handle carrying over saves games, I still hope I never see another ending like DA2. It was just too lazy, to have the exact same battle no matter who you sided with. It is fine to have the exact same ending battles in games that have a big bad boss as the goal and the end. DA2's ending was just silly.

I agree with everything you said. 

I think that within an individual game we need to have choices that make an impact, but I'm not so picky about game to game. Especially if they change stuff for good reasons relating to the story. For instance, I didn't do the Dark Ritual in Origins because it didn't fit my character, but I would WANT them to override that decision if it ties in to the story. I realize this is a bit unusual on here (I think), but there you go.

[They call me a SpaceCowboy]

Replayability is a way bigger issue than importing for me anyway, so I agree with you on that ^

[Fredward]

No.

[They call me a SpaceCowboy]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

No.

Really? What in DA2 makes you want to replay it?

[Sylvius the Mad]

The devs were actually pretty clear during DA2's development that replayability wasn't something with which they were at all concerned. They had a bunch of data from DAO that said the vast majority of players never even finished the game once, and thus replayability wasn't important.


Now, I think they misinterpreted that data. It doesn't matter how many times the game was finished; it matters how many times the game was started. Replayability involves being able to create and play different characters within the game, regardless of whether you ever reach the end of the game with those characters. Several of my DAO characters never saw the end of the game despite my having finished my playthrough with them (they either died along the way or were otherwise removed from the quest to stop the Blight). In fact, by the time DA2 was released I had only actually slain the archdemon once - so by BioWare's reasoning I never replayed the game, even though I had created and played with 14 different characters.

The telemetry BioWare collects is only valuable if they don't misinterpret it.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 06 août 2012 - 01:10 .

[caradoc2000]

I don't know about the lack of replayability. I've completed DAO about a dozen times, and DA2 nine times thus far.

[andar91]

caradoc2000 wrote...

I don't know about the lack of replayability. I've completed DAO about a dozen times, and DA2 nine times thus far.

I think Origins is much more replayable because of the variability in the plot, but I still play DA2 as well (more for the gameplay than the plot). I just think it's less replayable when compared to the original.

[They call me a SpaceCowboy]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

The devs were actually pretty clear during DA2's development that replayability wasn't something with which they were at all concerned. They had a bunch of data from DAO that said the vast majority of players never even finished the game once, and thus replayability wasn't important.


Now, I think they misinterpreted that data. It doesn't matter how many times the game was finished; it matters how many times the game was started. Replayability involves being able to create and play different characters within the game, regardless of whether you ever reach the end of the game with those characters. Several of my DAO characters never saw the end of the game despite my having finished my playthrough with them (they either died along the way or were otherwise removed from the quest to stop the Blight). In fact, by the time DA2 was released I had only actually slain the archdemon once - so by BioWare's reasoning I never replayed the game, even though I had created and played with 14 different characters.

The telemetry BioWare collects is only valuable if they don't misinterpret it.

I didn't know about that. I'm not surprised. Its the same reasoning as saying most people didnt play past Ostagar. Was it that or did people play each origin to ostagar to see what it's like, and then play a full game?

Abandoning replayability is fine. Games like Skyrim don't ahve much replayability. The difference is that they have tons of content to make up for it, which DA2 doesn't.

[jillabender]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

The devs were actually pretty clear during DA2's development that replayability wasn't something with which they were at all concerned. They had a bunch of data from DAO that said the vast majority of players never even finished the game once, and thus replayability wasn't important.


Now, I think they misinterpreted that data. It doesn't matter how many times the game was finished; it matters how many times the game was started. Replayability involves being able to create and play different characters within the game, regardless of whether you ever reach the end of the game with those characters. Several of my DAO characters never saw the end of the game despite my having finished my playthrough with them (they either died along the way or were otherwise removed from the quest to stop the Blight). In fact, by the time DA2 was released I had only actually slain the archdemon once - so by BioWare's reasoning I never replayed the game, even though I had created and played with 14 different characters.

The telemetry BioWare collects is only valuable if they don't misinterpret it.

I have to wonder, too, whether they might have misinterpreted that data – I'd be curious to hear how exactly they collected the data, and how they arrived at that conclusion.

As far as importing decisions goes, I like the idea of there being references to events in the previous game when it's appropriate, but it's not a huge issue for me.

Modifié par jillabender, 06 août 2012 - 02:57 .

[LobselVith8]

I agree, OP. I think importing our decisions has been abandoned, for the most part. The Magi boon and the Dalish boon were changed to accommodate the current direction of the franchise, dead characters are brought back to life, the ramifications of a mage holding political power are entirely ignored, and Dragon Age II railroaded the protagonist down certain paths so we had very little in the way of choice (as we see with the inevitability of a Grey Warden becoming possessed in Legacy, and Tallis leaving with the list in Mark of the Assassin).

[Arthur Cousland]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

The devs were actually pretty clear during DA2's development that replayability wasn't something with which they were at all concerned. They had a bunch of data from DAO that said the vast majority of players never even finished the game once, and thus replayability wasn't important.


Now, I think they misinterpreted that data. It doesn't matter how many times the game was finished; it matters how many times the game was started. Replayability involves being able to create and play different characters within the game, regardless of whether you ever reach the end of the game with those characters. Several of my DAO characters never saw the end of the game despite my having finished my playthrough with them (they either died along the way or were otherwise removed from the quest to stop the Blight). In fact, by the time DA2 was released I had only actually slain the archdemon once - so by BioWare's reasoning I never replayed the game, even though I had created and played with 14 different characters.

The telemetry BioWare collects is only valuable if they don't misinterpret it.

I agree.

I have started many playthroughs in Origins, with several not lasting through Ostagar because I just didn't like the way my character looked and decided to re-roll.  That doesn't mean that people bought the game and didn't play it ever again after Ostagar, that probably meant that they just didn't like their character and wanted to try another.

I also created around a dozen characters before I finally finished Origins for the first time, but after that, I stuck with most of my characters.  In all, I've completed Origins around 10 times or so, but that also includes the many restarts.  If Origins had something similar to the Mirror of Transformation in DA2, I'm sure that many of peoples' created characters would have lasted far beyond Ostagar, and maybe would have finished the game.

The Bioware staff need to stop reading so much into their "data".

[wsandista]

Yes.

[Merlex]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

The devs were actually pretty clear during DA2's development that replayability wasn't something with which they were at all concerned. They had a bunch of data from DAO that said the vast majority of players never even finished the game once, and thus replayability wasn't important.


Now, I think they misinterpreted that data. It doesn't matter how many times the game was finished; it matters how many times the game was started. Replayability involves being able to create and play different characters within the game, regardless of whether you ever reach the end of the game with those characters. Several of my DAO characters never saw the end of the game despite my having finished my playthrough with them (they either died along the way or were otherwise removed from the quest to stop the Blight). In fact, by the time DA2 was released I had only actually slain the archdemon once - so by BioWare's reasoning I never replayed the game, even though I had created and played with 14 different characters.

The telemetry BioWare collects is only valuable if they don't misinterpret it.

I agree. I've started about 20 games in DA2. I only finished 1. Most only got as far as Kirkwall, then i restarted. Only 6 made it past the Deep Roads. My first playthrough only went to the beginning of Act 3, then i stopped playing for 3 months. I never finished that game.

The only reason i can keep playing, is because of all the mods on Nexus. Face morphs, better AI, more talents, companion armor, item packs, and additional companions (robotic though); is the only reason i can still play. If Bioware had released an updated toolset we could of had new adventures and extra voiced companions. That would have added a lot of replayability.

I hope that they release a toolset for DA3, but i doubt it. They want people to buy it, play it, then move on and buy their next product. I only buy Bioware RPGs and the occasional TBS game like the Civilization Franchise. Times are tough. If Bioware has stopped caring about replayability, i'll have to look somewhere else. Which is sad, because i've been with Bioware since my first computer.

[nightscrawl]

Shinian2 wrote...

Amid all the criticism directed at DA2, on that stood out the most for me was the lack of replayability. This was largely because the imported desisions were so sparce.

There was next to no mention of the warden at all, with the slight exception of the Dalish origin and Amell mage. Import any other origin and noone, not even Anders, talks about him/her. Not even a passing comment about them being a Human, Dwarf, Elf etc.

Bhelen as king got one quest added. Harrowmont as king got nothing.

Brief cameos were added for various companions, but even these didn't reflect the epilogues that appeared for them at the end of DAO/Awakening, with the exception of Alistairs fate.

I expect even less from DA3. If you import a DA2 game, there isn't much from DA2 to be imported. Maybe Ander's fate, but nothing else that happened was even player choice, so will appear as canon in DA3.

I don't see there being much point in even providing an import feature in DA3. Just choose a set background like you could in DA2.

I've played DA2 a dozen times, so... This is mainly due to the fact that it's half as long as DAO. For me, deciding on a new DAO play takes more of a commitment than DA2 does.

You can see all of the imported decisions and their results here.

I don't know about other origins, since my main DA2 import is as an Amell mage, which is mentioned in passing with some Bethany dialogue, and again by Anders during an argument "The Hero of Ferelden was a mage!"

Modifié par nightscrawl, 06 août 2012 - 11:09 .

[Darth Death]

Apparently. Among many other things.

[Sanunes]

The problem with Dragon Age 2 with importing data from Dragon Age: Origins is the import itself was broken and not fully tested.

As far as "major impacts" on the game from a previous title I believe that will never happen, BioWare has shown they aren't going to restrict content based on actions or decisions you have made in other games for they want to keep the game open to new people playing and don't want them to be frustrated by unavailable content. If their actions in the game itself is going to have major ramifications I believe they are going to need a longer development time and to stop listening to all the demands we as a community are putting on them. I firmly believe some of the worst concepts that were included in Mass Effect 3 were directly tied to what people were saying what they had to see in the game and it watered down the game experience for me.

[andar91]

PurebredCorn wrote...

andar91 wrote...

caradoc2000 wrote...

I don't know about the lack of replayability. I've completed DAO about a dozen times, and DA2 nine times thus far.

I think Origins is much more replayable because of the variability in the plot, but I still play DA2 as well (more for the gameplay than the plot). I just think it's less replayable when compared to the original.

Yeah, I agree with you on this. Origins had more variety in how each area could play out (Redcliffe, Brecilian Forest, Orzammar, not to mention the Origins themselves) than DA2 did, and that is what adds replayability for me. Whether the choices I made were reflected in detail doesn't really matter to me. I could easily just choose the major decisions from a list at the begining of the game and be quite content with that.

I, too, would be fine with just choosing the major decisions as opposed to importing everything.

[MichaelStuart]

I played Dragon Age 2 more than once.
The replayability came mostly from trying out character combinations. (which made no difference)

I wish they would drop the import feature.

[Arthur Cousland]

Especially since we were no longer playing as the Warden, there was little reason to import. DA2 didn't continue the Warden's journey; it was a completely different game with a new protagonist. There were a few references to an Amell or Dalish warden, and then the Alistair, Leliana and Zevran cameos, but there was nothing that really impacted the game.

If the option to import is there, I will use it, but it's not a feature that needs a lot of attention, unless the next game is a true sequel that actually picks up where the previous game left off.

DA2 got around 5 playthroughs from me, mainly because I like the combat and the companions.  Unfortunately, after 2 playthroughs, to side with mages and templars, there is nothing left to see.  I've finished Origins ~10 times and I still play it.

Modifié par Arthur Cousland, 07 août 2012 - 02:18 .

[hussey 92]

Since DA2 reuses locations, i felt like i had already done multiple playthroughs by the end of act 2.

Modifié par hussey 92, 07 août 2012 - 02:37 .