91 réponses à ce sujet

[Maria Caliban]

Allan Schumacher wrote...
This did lead to hilarious imports that had the Dwarven Elf Hermaphrodite Wizard Rogue that both killed and spared Loghain while entering into a polygamous marriage with Alistair and Anora, that opted to let most of Amaranthine and Vigil's Keep burn to the ground!

I'd play that game.

[Beerfish]

There is great playability in almost all BioWare games. The reason? Well fleshed out companions that react to each other and have personal story archs. DA2 had it's failings but as usual BioWare had a strong set of companions that could you could elicit feelings towards, good or bad.

[AbsoluteApril]

Allan Schumacher wrote...
Any issues that DA2 have with replayability, in my opinion, is on us to provide better replayability within the game itself.

Maybe a better question would be - why do people replay games? What about the game makes someone want to do multiple playthroughs? Specifically RPG games?

**
I replay to:
1) see different outcomes within a game(story) based on different choices (morality choices, dialogues, quests)
2) see how different choices change outcome of future games
3) try the different relationships
4) last on my list would be the simple fact of it being a fun/enjoyable game and/or fun combat

(edit to add - my DAO PTs are mostly for 1 and 2, my DA2 PTs are mostly for 3)

**
I'm also a fan of the 'genesis' list of options at the start of a sequel in order to select the choices from prior games as a way to get around import bugs.

Modifié par AbsoluteApril, 10 août 2012 - 03:35 .

[brushyourteeth]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Amid all the criticism directed at DA2, on that stood out the most for me was the lack of replayability. This was largely because the imported desisions were so sparce.

I don't think importing is much of a factor affecting replayability. It can be, but it's difficult if that's going to be a key cog in how a game focuses on its replayability.

Games like Fallout 1, Alpha Protocol, and DAO are very replayable, and since they're the first game in a series obviously there's no element of import.

Any issues that DA2 have with replayability, in my opinion, is on us to provide better replayability within the game itself. In theory we could completely ignore any form of import and I don't think that provides any sort of barrier to replayability in any future DA titles.

That we aren't ignoring it just allows us to add a bit of extra gravy for those that have played the earlier games and made those decisions

Agree!

[Melca36]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

This.

I'm discovering that game imports seem to restrict games far more than they expand them.

I'd rather have choices I make have tangible outcomes in the game they're made than just be some minor shoutout ina later game.

If some previous decision is important to a future game, I'd rather see a simple checklist at the beginning that we can select

Dark Ritual Done? y/n

Anders alive? y/n

Hawke a mage? y/n?

Just as an interesting fact, from a QA perspective I like this idea because it makes testing soooooooooooooo much easier.

On DA2 we had to have people go back and playthrough Origins (on each platform!) to ensure we had valid imports.


Though even then I still remember writing a simple app that generated the plot files for import based on randomly assigning true/false to the flags we were checking. This did lead to hilarious imports that had the Dwarven Elf Hermaphrodite Wizard Rogue that both killed and spared Loghain while entering into a polygamous marriage with Alistair and Anora, that opted to let most of Amaranthine and Vigil's Keep burn to the ground!

But hey, at least the right values were being imported

(This was just a system test to make sure the import system was properly reading the correct flags and assigning them the correct value in DA2. )

How about a comic-dlc  like the one Mass Effect 2 had?  


Also the decision regarding whether Hawke was male or female needs to be in there as well.

Modifié par Melca36, 10 août 2012 - 04:34 .

[bioelectronicsam]

I have replayed DA2 several times, even though I had hoped for the imported game saves to have more effect it did not effect my decision to replay the game.

[Iosev]

Beyond differences in plot decisions, another major reason why I replay Bioware games is to try out the different classes/archetypes. In DA2, for example, I made sure to replay the game at least once with each archetype (i.e., warrior, rogue, and mage), which I found to be a lot easier than DA:O in this regard, as there was much more class distinction between the three archetypes (DA:O had too much overlap between classes, especially between the warrior and rogue).

I personally thought that there was a lot of replay value in DA2. In addition to the different archetypes, I enjoyed the differences in dialogue depending on which sibling survived (e.g., conversations between the siblings, party banter, random quest remarks, etc.). I've replayed both DA:O and DA2 quite heavily, but I think I've replayed DA2 more, at least in terms of complete playthroughs (I'm excluding the playthroughs where I just tried out an origin).

[Renmiri1]

Same here, replaying DA2 a lot more. The dialogs change not only with your class but  also if you pick the top, medium or bottom dialog wheel options, even the "canned dialogs" get more direct, humorous or paragon depending on how you chose the majority of your dialog. Most of my Hawkes are sarcastic jokers but I have a playthrough with "Saint Hawke" and "Rude Hawke" too, just for giggles. Also loved Carver, he is a lot more spunky than Bethany. Was fun to be able to experience both.

PS: A suggestion for Bioware - Please give us a import flag editor like "gibbed" or like the Origins comic for ME2. A lot of us would like to change some in game decisions from DAO or DA2 without having to play through the 2 games again! Will also help new players experiment with different beginings 

Modifié par Renmiri1, 10 août 2012 - 06:06 .

[jillabender]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I don't think importing is much of a factor affecting replayability. It can be, but it's difficult if that's going to be a key cog in how a game focuses on its replayability.

Games like Fallout 1, Alpha Protocol, and DAO are very replayable, and since they're the first game in a series obviously there's no element of import.

Any issues that DA2 have with replayability, in my opinion, is on us to provide better replayability within the game itself. In theory we could completely ignore any form of import and I don't think that provides any sort of barrier to replayability in any future DA titles.

That we aren't ignoring it just allows us to add a bit of extra gravy for those that have played the earlier games and made those decisions

Well said – that's how I see it as well. Having references to events in previous games is neat when it's appropriate, but I don't see it as having a huge impact either way when it comes to replayability.

Modifié par jillabender, 12 août 2012 - 01:59 .

[They call me a SpaceCowboy]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Amid all the criticism directed at DA2, on that stood out the most for me was the lack of replayability. This was largely because the imported desisions were so sparce.

I don't think importing is much of a factor affecting replayability. It can be, but it's difficult if that's going to be a key cog in how a game focuses on its replayability.

Games like Fallout 1, Alpha Protocol, and DAO are very replayable, and since they're the first game in a series obviously there's no element of import.

Any issues that DA2 have with replayability, in my opinion, is on us to provide better replayability within the game itself. In theory we could completely ignore any form of import and I don't think that provides any sort of barrier to replayability in any future DA titles.

That we aren't ignoring it just allows us to add a bit of extra gravy for those that have played the earlier games and made those decisions

I see your point. More replayable content in the game itelf is more important than importing.

It's just that I had 6 imports from DAO ready to go, with different choices and different origins, only to find that most of the import choices had little to no impact. This killed the desire to replay using different saves for me.

[1Nosphorus1]

Shinian2 wrote...It's just that I had 6 imports from DAO ready to go, with different choices and different origins, only to find that most of the import choices had little to no impact. This killed the desire to replay using different saves for me.

I had around 4 solid imports, but had completed it around 8 times and had restarted and got to different lengths of the game 20+ times. (I suffer from re-roller syndrome)

DA:O is one of my most played RPG's, it gave me that sense of trying out new things and seeing what the rewards would be, the Origins themselves, crafted excellently. I've only completed DA2 once, I started another playthrough as a Rogue but gave up about a 1/3 of the way through, it gave me no sense of awe/exploration/control/immersion.

I'd really like Bioware to go back to their roots for the third in the trilogy, the import decisions should be editable via flags, or hell just make it the major decisions. Something I'd like to see would be for the game to have the option of importing the DA:O save and selecting decisions from a list in DA2.

[Winged Silver]

I don't think importing really had a huge difference on the game's level of entertainment overall (after all, I was somewhat more upset after seeing what they did to Alistair, Zevran, and Teagan)

I actually was able to do two complete playthroughs of DA2, and get through half the 3rd one.

Mostly because with the first two I played as a rogue w/ Anders, and then a Mage w/ Fenris (a blood mage too and he didn't even say anything <_<)

I think the replayability comes with seeing what each companion has to offer, and to see what special moves each class now has.

However, if one disliked the story in the first place, it's unlikely one could really find much reason to play more than once. I myself was ok with the unusual method. It's certainly not DAO and saving the world, but it does talk about the everyday which is a bracing change of pace.

[nightscrawl]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

This.

I'm discovering that game imports seem to restrict games far more than they expand them.

I'd rather have choices I make have tangible outcomes in the game they're made than just be some minor shoutout ina later game.

If some previous decision is important to a future game, I'd rather see a simple checklist at the beginning that we can select

Dark Ritual Done? y/n

Anders alive? y/n

Hawke a mage? y/n?

Just as an interesting fact, from a QA perspective I like this idea because it makes testing soooooooooooooo much easier.

On DA2 we had to have people go back and playthrough Origins (on each platform!) to ensure we had valid imports.


Though even then I still remember writing a simple app that generated the plot files for import based on randomly assigning true/false to the flags we were checking. This did lead to hilarious imports that had the Dwarven Elf Hermaphrodite Wizard Rogue that both killed and spared Loghain while entering into a polygamous marriage with Alistair and Anora, that opted to let most of Amaranthine and Vigil's Keep burn to the ground!

But hey, at least the right values were being imported

(This was just a system test to make sure the import system was properly reading the correct flags and assigning them the correct value in DA2. )

Rofl...

And ok... sorry, I just have to say it... no one did a Zevran romance play, huh? =/

[Fast Jimmy]

The problem with the imported choices in DA2 was not that they were not reported correctly (they were) but rather that the scope of the choices were not at all reflected in game.

In DA:O we had some major choices that could impact the entire world. And for those who say 'those choices wouldn't impact life in Kirkwall, that's how they can be ignored and result in the exact same outcome either way', I disagree.

If the Warden was granted the boon to give elves their own homeland, why would Merril's clan, the clan (possibly) of the Warden who gave that promise, leave Ferelden altogether and not migrate to this new homeland? If the Mage boon was given, why would Hawke's family leave Ferelden, where Bethany could go to the Tower in Ferelde and live without Templar interference, rather than to to Kirkwall, home of the the criminally insane Circle? And why would Anders, for that matter? If the Warden chose Bhelen as king, who opens up surface trade and gives special consideration to topsiders, then why would Varric and his brother be in Kirkwall, instead of outside Orzammar, wheeling and dealing for more fortunes? If the Ashes of Andraste were truly discovered and released to the world by the Warden, why would the Qun have so many converts, while the Chantry is unable to use this proof to gain more supporters to their side? If the Dwarves were able to recover the Anvil and able to make golems again, why don't we see Dwarves running away to avoid being turned against golems against their will, or see golems in the Deep Roads fighting back Darkspawn?

The answer to all of these questions is 'because the story of DA2 does not let it be so', essentially. And to try and accommodate all of these permutations is truly impossible.

So why does Bioware even want to try and keep up the pretense? Why not just get rid of all of the imports, period? I would rather be able to choose between the Dalish and the Wolves in a game and have that reflected in the ending, then have all future games set a canon and ignore any other choices than have things be like DA2, where you are either given no choice, or have any choice you make invariably result in the exact same outcome.

Nerfing in game choice so that imports become manageable is weak. In game choice should trump import issues, every time. I would much rather have a diverse, complex and replayable game that ditches imported choices than a game that offers less and less choice and still only offers lip service to previous game choices.

[LobselVith8]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

If the Warden was granted the boon to give elves their own homeland, why would Merril's clan, the clan (possibly) of the Warden who gave that promise, leave Ferelden altogether and not migrate to this new homeland? If the Mage boon was given, why would Hawke's family leave Ferelden, where Bethany could go to the Tower in Ferelde and live without Templar interference, rather than to to Kirkwall, home of the the criminally insane Circle? And why would Anders, for that matter?

The developers changed the outcomes for the Dalish and Magi boon; with the rectons they are, essentially, meaningless now.

[TEWR]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

If the Warden was granted the boon to give elves their own homeland, why would Merril's clan, the clan (possibly) of the Warden who gave that promise, leave Ferelden altogether and not migrate to this new homeland?

By the time the boon was requested and granted, the clan's halla had been dead for a while. So they were stranded there with no way of contacting another clan. 

Short of scrounging up enough coin to book passage on a ship -- which would be pretty tough for a clan of Elves -- they were stuck there. I imagine they only had enough coin to send Ashalle back there to act as a sort of diplomat/emissary/envoy/whatever-other-word-means-the-same-thing-essentially.

If the Mage boon was given, why would Hawke's family leave Ferelden, where Bethany could go to the Tower in Ferelde and live without Templar interference, rather than to to Kirkwall, home of the the criminally insane Circle?

The choice was changed a bit to better adhere to the lore of the Circles. So while originally the decision led to a freed Circle, that was actually a bit of a lore-breaker because the Circles fall under the jurisdiction of the Chantry.

It's something I welcome, personally. Alistair and more then likely Anora are still fighting for it, which paves the way for conflict. 

Also, the family had no home. Bethany may have been safe, but the family would've had a tough time living anywhere else. With an estate and money, they could've had both. Bethany would've been safe from the Templars and the family could live comfortably.

Also, you're going to have to sacrifice some things for a plot of a game. But it certainly would've been nice to bring these things up to the family, if only to have them acknowledged and then given reasons why it wasn't an option -- like say... Meredith is keeping all ships with refugees onboard from leaving due to thinking apostates are using it as a cover to escape.

And why would Anders, for that matter? If the Warden chose Bhelen as king, who opens up surface trade and gives special consideration to topsiders, then why would Varric and his brother be in Kirkwall, instead of outside Orzammar, wheeling and dealing for more fortunes?

Who's to say Bartrand and Varric weren't using some of their contacts to do so? Given that Varric keeps the family estate thriving after Bartrand's disappearance without ever attending the Guild meetings themselves, I'd imagine Bartrand and Varric may have tried similar ventures.

 

If the Ashes of Andraste were truly discovered and released to the world by the Warden, why would the Qun have so many converts, while the Chantry is unable to use this proof to gain more supporters to their side?

This one I can't argue against. 

If the Dwarves were able to recover the Anvil and able to make golems again, why don't we see Dwarves running away to avoid being turned against golems against their will, or see golems in the Deep Roads fighting back Darkspawn?

The former would've been good to see if Bhelen was on the throne, but the latter I can't really see happening because Kirkwall is a great deal away from Orzammar, and they would have to work on clearing out Ferelden of Darkspawn first.

And for all we know, there was never a passage from Ferelden to Kirkwall in the Deep Roads.

The answer to all of these questions is 'because the story of DA2 does not let it be so', essentially. And to try and accommodate all of these permutations is truly impossible.

I blame a rushed game really.

[TEWR]

This.

I'm discovering that game imports seem to restrict games far more than they expand them.

I'd rather have choices I make have tangible outcomes in the game they're made than just be some minor shoutout ina later game.

If some previous decision is important to a future game, I'd rather see a simple checklist at the beginning that we can select

Dark Ritual Done? y/n

Anders alive? y/n

Hawke a mage? y/n?

I've argued for these things in the past. Game-changing choices instead of world-changing ones -- which DAII could've done -- and a checklist for the world-changing ones. Or keeping the world-changing ones to a minimum, and thus are easier to account for.

[LobselVith8]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

If the Warden was granted the boon to give elves their own homeland, why would Merril's clan, the clan (possibly) of the Warden who gave that promise, leave Ferelden altogether and not migrate to this new homeland?

By the time the boon was requested and granted, the clan's halla had been dead for a while. So they were stranded there with no way of contacting another clan. 

Short of scrounging up enough coin to book passage on a ship -- which would be pretty tough for a clan of Elves -- they were stuck there. I imagine they only had enough coin to send Ashalle back there to act as a sort of diplomat/emissary/envoy/whatever-other-word-means-the-same-thing-essentially.

Marethari shows up for the US ending.

Also, Hawke has money in Act II.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

If the Mage boon was given, why would Hawke's family leave Ferelden, where Bethany could go to the Tower in Ferelde and live without Templar interference, rather than to to Kirkwall, home of the the criminally insane Circle?

The choice was changed a bit to better adhere to the lore of the Circles. So while originally the decision led to a freed Circle, that was actually a bit of a lore-breaker because the Circles fall under the jurisdiction of the Chantry.

In the US ending, Greagoir acquiesced to the ruler's demand to free the Circle. The developers changed this for the Dragon Age II plot.

[TEWR]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Marethari shows up for the US ending.

Does she really? I figured Ashalle would show up then and there too.

Also, Hawke has money in Act II.

Hawke's a human. The Dalish Elves won't even admit that they need help dealing with some Darkspawn -- in both DAO and DAII -- so I can't imagine Hawke handing them money to leave would be met well.

Elven superiority complex and all that. I mean, remember how Sarel treated the Human Noble when the Human Noble earnestly wanted to help?

Same thing here. Plus they'd have to move all of their aravels by hand, which would really be energy-consuming if they tried to move them all to a port -- and detrimental to their safety, given all the horrors the Kirkwall area has.

Moving them away from the mountain though... that should've been done.

In the US ending, Greagoir acquiesced to the ruler's demand to free the Circle. The developers changed this for the Dragon Age II plot.

Yes, I remember you showed me that clip. It was certainly interesting seeing Gregoir's reaction to it. 

But that doesn't change how the Circles themselves fall under the jurisdiction of the Chantry -- as established in DAO. Gregoir is a Templar -- part of the Chantry, but not anyone with any authority on the autonomy aspect.

In DAII, we should've heard how he was arguing in conjunction with King Alistair for the boon to be granted, given that he's somewhat open to the concept -- albeit begrudgingly.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 11 août 2012 - 02:52 .

[Fast Jimmy]

I'm not saying these facts couldn't be explained, but DA2 made no attempt to do so if you made these choices. And people were expecting that.

So... the answer for why certain choices were ignored? They were retconned, they were explained outside of the game or they were out-and-out ignored. I dot have a real problem with that - but why even have imported choices if they are all going to be either retconned, not explained, ignored or have it result, at best, in a side quest? That's incredibly lame.

Just scrap them. Do you realize how awesome of a story they could tell if Anora was locked in prison and Allistair was king, as pure canon? DA3 could involve her wheeling and dealing with the Chantry/Circle to bust her out and usurp Allistair. Or if the dwarves had the Anvil and fought for both the Templars and the Mages, as they soight fit, to keep both of their lyrium buyers demands higher? Or, the old stand by, Morrigan and the DR? Or the Dalish homeland?

I mean, any of these plot ideas are perfect for future games as major sources of intrigue and conflict. But NONE of them will get their proper due because Bioware has to worry about choices players made back in 2008. How insane is that? Does no one see the utter waste this is creating?

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 11 août 2012 - 02:54 .

[TEWR]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Just scrap them. Do you realize how awesome of a story they could tell if Anora was locked in prison and Allistair was king, as pure canon? DA3 could involve her wheeling and dealing with the Chantry/Circle to bust her out and usurp Allistair. Or if the dwarves had the Anvil and fought for both the Templars and the Mages, as they soight fit, to keep both of their lyrium buyers demands higher? Or, the old stand by, Morrigan and the DR? Or the Dalish homeland?

To the bolded: By the Ancestors do I want this to happen, as it's the same thing -- more or less, though they'd only supply the Templars with lyrium and not actually fight with them. But they'd also shelter the Mages in exchange for fighting the Darkspawn or healing soldiers or whatnot -- I've thought as well.

To the point of the post: Yes, I agree that if Bioware can't handle the imported choices appropriately -- either through explanation, recognition, or whathaveyou -- then they shouldn't really focus on them at all.

[LobselVith8]

The Ethereal Writer wrote...

Does she really?

Yes, which makes it all the more odd that Marethari's clan is in Sundermount when the King or Queen tells her that he is giving her people their own homeland - the Hinterlands, up to and including the ruins of Ostagar.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Hawke's a human.

You make some good points. However, would Hawke's race bother the Keeper, who is the one governing the clan?

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Yes, I remember you showed me that clip. it was certainly interesting seeing Greagoir's reaction to it.

But that doesn't change how the Circles themselves fall under the jurisdiction of the Chantry -- as established in DAO.

It also doesn't change that the ending established that the Magi boon happened - First Enchanter Irving takes it as a given, the ruler makes no indication that they need to request the Chantry for permission, the independent Circle of Orzammar isn't formed as a consequence of this royal boon, Cullen goes insane as a result, and the US ending makes it more explicit as I indicated.

The developers never even bothered to explain the ramifications of a mage becoming the new Warden-Commander and Arl of Amaranthine. If the developers handwave our choices, what's the point?

[jackofalltrades456]

Yeah, they really do need to decide on imports in the next game. I couldn't stand how Anders was in the Grey Wardens and possessed by the spirit of Justice even though I handed the former over to the Chantry and killed the latter. If they're going to give a set canon in the first place, what's the point of doing imports? It's one thing to handwave a choice. But it's another when you say it didn't happen....

[Fast Jimmy]

Agreed. Although the Dwarf idea ONLY works if you have golems. I could see the Dwarves scheming about lyrium trade,but if they are fighting the always losing battle against the Darkspawn, then they wouldn't spare troops for profit alone. But, if they had golems and could not only hold back the Darkspawn, but earn some breathing room? THEN I could see them scheming to play both sides with the use of troops. But back to topic...

If Bioware was fine with creating tons of custom content for the different choices, I wouldn't complain. But they can't. You can't make, essentially, the content for two or even three different games each sequel you make. As it only grows exponentially without extreme railroading. Importing and remaining economical as a game maker at the same time is incredibly difficult and Bioware has shown that they have found no way to resolve this.

I need only look at ME3, which had developers stating all throughout development that they were working on making the game reflect previous choices in a truly impressive way, since ME3 would be the last in the trilogy and they did not have to worry about following them up in later games. That they were free to make custom content, or break and destroy things as they saw fit. And, despite this vision and opportunity, it had the most railroaded outcomes of any ME game to date, with the only consolation being a deluge of lip service to small choices (or diminishing big choices to a one-line-of-dialogue difference).

If it could not be done in ME3, which was the culmination and end of a set character series, then it cannot be done by Bioware, period. Not to any level of satisfaction to the majority of fans. So why tie their hands, why restrict their stories, why limit themselves to things that cannot be? Scrap imports altogether. Let them tell the story they want, with the outcomes that best help tell a good story. Not to merc every aspect of the lore and game just to prevent stepping on toes from previous games.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 11 août 2012 - 03:47 .

[jillabender]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

If Bioware was fine with creating tons of custom content for the different choices, I wouldn't complain. But they can't. You can't make, essentially, the content for two or even three different games each sequel you make. As it only grows exponentially without extreme railroading. Importing and remaining economical as a game maker at the same time is incredibly difficult and Bioware has shown that they have found no way to resolve this.

[…]

So why tie their hands, why restrict their stories, why limit themselves to things that cannot be? Scrap imports altogether. Let them tell the story they want, with the outcomes that best help tell a good story. Not to merc every aspect of the lore and game just to prevent stepping on toes from previous games.

I'm inclined to agree. I appreciate that Bioware tried with the imports in DA2 to add something extra for fans who played through DA:O, but in practice, the way they did it didn't really feel satisfying.

I don't need for my choices in the previous game to be reflected in the sequel, but when some of those choices are referred to in passing, and other choices that one would expect to have wide-ranging ramifications, like the Mage boon and the Dalish boon, are ignored, it makes the game feel disjointed.

Although I appreciate that some people feel differently, I would prefer for Bioware to choose one possible series of events from the previous game and explore the consequences of those events in depth, if the alternative is trying to account for many possible series of events and doing so in a superficial way.

Modifié par jillabender, 11 août 2012 - 03:59 .