91 réponses à ce sujet

[Fast Jimmy]

^
To quote Batman Begins "You're just one man?"

"Now we're two."

[jillabender]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

^
To quote Batman Begins "You're just one man?"

"Now we're two."

*high-fives*

[Fast Jimmy]

One aspect of the imports that's never really discussed is the fact that it becomes a larger and larger task to test and QA over time. As many flags as there was in DA:O and DA:A, these would all need to be carried over and tested, the choices from DA2, as well as all of the DLCs from both Origins and DA2, there will be a slew more after DA3 to test for DA4. Especially if Gaider and company are serious about making meaningful choice that affects the outcome of the story for DA3.

With each new iteration and sequel, it doesn't only make it harder to make the choices matter within the story, but it's going to take a larger and larger effort to prevent these choices from breaking the game Looking at Allen's example of a hermaphrodite elf/dwarf is a perfect example of how broken and... weird... the bugs can get of the flags start acting wonky. And, just like anything else, the more of them there are, the more risk there is that they will break.

[1Nosphorus1]

Importing sounds like it needs to be canned.

What they need to do is make each game a seperate iteration of a story, with the choices you make reflected in the ending and expanded on via DLC concerning characters relevant to the story.
The next game should then give you a small selection of major choices to which impact your experience, ala "Backgrounds" to the story and setting.

[Fast Jimmy]

1Nosphorus1 wrote...

Importing sounds like it needs to be canned.

What they need to do is make each game a seperate iteration of a story, with the choices you make reflected in the ending and expanded on via DLC concerning characters relevant to the story.
The next game should then give you a small selection of major choices to which impact your experience, ala "Backgrounds" to the story and setting.

Yet even this is a ridiculous amount of work. Because there would be a lot of 'background' options to manage for currently. 

The king/queen of Ferelden, the king of Orzamaar, the fate of the Anvil of the Void, the fate of fhe Ashes of Andraste, if the Architect was killed, If Morrigan had the OGB,which keeps burned in the final battle of Awakening, and more. 

Not to mention the countless characters who could be alive or dead and the myriad of minor voices that would still have to be decided for. 

Point is, if the player gets to choose different world states the game starts out in, that remove import flag issues, but still results in them having to make multiple versions of the game. 

For instance, after DA3, if the Mages win, that is one world choice that I assume you would want to 'choose' during the beginning of DA4. As would if the Templars win. But that would require too different games - one where mages are still locked in Towers and another where they roam free... how would Bioware reconcile those two realities without making two very different games? 

The answer is to remove carried over choices from game to game, period. Have each game offer choices during it and it's DLC, but then hit the reset button between each true sequel. 

[1Nosphorus1]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

1Nosphorus1 wrote...

Importing sounds like it needs to be canned.

What they need to do is make each game a seperate iteration of a story, with the choices you make reflected in the ending and expanded on via DLC concerning characters relevant to the story.
The next game should then give you a small selection of major choices to which impact your experience, ala "Backgrounds" to the story and setting.

Yet even this is a ridiculous amount of work. Because there would be a lot of 'background' options to manage for currently. 

The king/queen of Ferelden, the king of Orzamaar, the fate of the Anvil of the Void, the fate of fhe Ashes of Andraste, if the Architect was killed, If Morrigan had the OGB,which keeps burned in the final battle of Awakening, and more. 

Not to mention the countless characters who could be alive or dead and the myriad of minor voices that would still have to be decided for. 

Point is, if the player gets to choose different world states the game starts out in, that remove import flag issues, but still results in them having to make multiple versions of the game. 

For instance, after DA3, if the Mages win, that is one world choice that I assume you would want to 'choose' during the beginning of DA4. As would if the Templars win. But that would require too different games - one where mages are still locked in Towers and another where they roam free... how would Bioware reconcile those two realities without making two very different games? 

The answer is to remove carried over choices from game to game, period. Have each game offer choices during it and it's DLC, but then hit the reset button between each true sequel. 

You're reiterating my point, and those choices can literally be chalked up to "Mages circle free Y/N" etc, all of the other things like "Alistair Crowned Y/N" wouldn't need to be mentioned due to enough time passing (but still have a slim background canon) between the story of the games.

It'd be the same with all the cameos and minor characters, they wouldn't be around to appear in the sequel, this annihilates all problems concerning import decisions.

Don't you think it's about time that Bioware did some more work on their games rather than streamline them? Look at the Witcher 2, choices literally send you down a complete different path and experience, it was like playing two seperate games for a while to be rejoined up for the finale while still witnesssing my own choices/consequences.

[SirGladiator]

There needs to be a combination of personal imported information, and collective imported information. The really big stuff, the kind you can't really write two separate things for, like whether a major character like Leliana is alive or dead, they did that just right, obviously she's alive in the VAST majority of players games, so she's alive in DA2. Or if, hypotheticly, you have that Templar and Mage war, the majority of players choose one side or the other to win the war, that side won it for the next game going forward. But for small to medium sized choices, choices such as who your character romanced, whether you saved or didnt save a particular minor character or town, whether you located a certain rare object, etc. things types of things can and should remain as part of individual importing, and it shouldn't be all that hard to reference them in the game and even let that information play some small role in the game itself. The ability to have both personal, and collective, thats the best way to go. And maybe they could even announce some of it in advance, make it clear that certain choices we make as the community collectively, will help shape the next game, like that mages vs templars thing, or maybe whether Flemeth lives or dies, big stuff like that. Obviously you can't write her as both alive AND dead in DA4, without making her presence too minor to really matter, so that would be another good example of something that we as a whole should decide, by whatever a majority of players selects. However they end up doing it, importing decisions, and their impact on the game, is a unique Bioware advantage, whether its Mass Effect or Dragon Age, its something that should only be build on and expanded, never scaled back or eliminated.

[Lord Gremlin]

See, the problem is is that for Bioware games and specifically Dragon Age choice is the selling point. There are games that do everything better. Except story and choices. Leliana thing was pretty bad. I've expected at least more detailed explanation how her head got reattached. Holy ashes are fine and good, only they were defiled.
Now, DA2 in general made me feel like an idiot, like my character was an idiot. It just felt like they deliberately limited you choices to the point where it's all just nonexistent. Now compare it to Dragon's Dogma. Same thing really, only better gameplay, better graphics, better.. Everything. take away choices and imports and you're left with the game that is just worse than any other RPG around.

[QueenPurpleScrap]

I have played Origins to completion about 20 times. I'm on my 8th playthrough with DA2, and I see no reason to start another at this point. One of the reasons I've played DA2 this many times is to see the effects of some of my Origins decisions in DA2: the 3 Alistair versions for instance. Other reasons are to get the achievements, to see if they made me play differently (not so much) and the DLC (so much better than the DA2 game itself). If I didn't have Origins, I would not have replayed DA2 as much as I have. If any quest mods are made for DA2 I might reconsider another playthrough.

I reread books and rewatch movies I like, so it never really occurred to me not to play any of my DAO games all the way through to the end. I started on console and then switched to PC. I like the many achievements set up in DAO, especially for the PC, because I was forced to play different styles as well as different origins which really made replayability much more interesting. (side note, I don't see why they had so many fewer achievements for the console). If it weren't for the modding community I might not have so many playthroughs, but the difference between the 2 games is that I like replaying DAO even though I have all but 1 achievement, and can definitely see myself playing again after I am achievement saturated. DA2, no. I can't very my character enough, or make enough meaningful decisions to make a DA2 replay interesting on its own.

Importing decisions, I think the importance of that and the way in which it is handled should depend on the timeline between games as well as the locations. I don't need a lot of cameos from previous games, they should only be there if they add to the game. Teagan and Isolde in MotA were completely unnecessary in my opinion. King/Warden Alistair made more sense both as part of the game and as a way of acknowledging my choices in Origins (which had the same starting point, timewise, as DA2).
Ex. 1: DA3 occurs around the time of the DA2 ending but in the Anderfels. Probably more important whether HoF is alive and decision re: Architect than who sits on throne. Alistair/Anora - simple codex entry would be sufficient. Acknowledgment of werewolves, Branka decisions possible, but again codex entry probably more than enough. Cameos unlikely.
Ex. 2: DA3 right at beginning to Mage/Templar war. Leliana to reappear-most likely. Alistair/Anora cameo or codex depending on proximity to Ferelden. Mage Circle boon (if applicable) and Hawke's decision important to history, people can make references to those decisions, or books/codex entries can expound upon them.
If DA4 then occurs, say 50 years after DA3 ends, however it ended up at that point would be incorporated into a history which would explain how it got from ending of DA3 to beginning of DA4. There would obviously be different histories depending on the import.

[BubbleDncr]

Shinian2 wrote...

Amid all the criticism directed at DA2, on that stood out the most for me was the lack of replayability. This was largely because the imported desisions were so sparce.

I have to disagree.

I replayed DA2 3 times so far - the only reason I stopped was because I only had 4 DA:O imports, and wanted to save one so that I could get a refresher closer to when DA3 came out, or so I have a game I can try and make decisions in based on what I knows happens in DA3, after it comes out.

To me, DA2 is more replayable than Origins, for 2 reasons:

1) Companion relationships. After 3 playthroughs, I've only romanced 3 of the 5 romances (if you include Sebastian), and they've all been friendship romances. I would like to do some rivalry romances, but there's also some characters I haven't even seen the rivalry path for. 

2) There's no parts of the game I hate. I loved DA:O, but the more I play it, the more I hate The Fade and Orzammar. I don't think I'll ever play through all of Origins again, even though I know there's still more for me to seee in that game, just because I dread having to play through those parts again.

Modifié par BubbleDncr, 16 août 2012 - 04:45 .

[Jerrybnsn]

BubbleDncr wrote...

........... the more I play it, the more I hate The Fade and Orzammar. I don't think I'll ever play through all of Origins again, even though I know there's still more for me to seee in that game, just because I dread having to play through those parts again.

How can you stand Legacy in DA2 then?  That's almost three hours long.

[BubbleDncr]

Jerrybnsn wrote...

BubbleDncr wrote...

........... the more I play it, the more I hate The Fade and Orzammar. I don't think I'll ever play through all of Origins again, even though I know there's still more for me to seee in that game, just because I dread having to play through those parts again.

How can you stand Legacy in DA2 then?  That's almost three hours long.

Legacy is DLC, so it isn't required for me to beat the game?

[Jerrybnsn]

BubbleDncr wrote...

Jerrybnsn wrote...

BubbleDncr wrote...

........... the more I play it, the more I hate The Fade and Orzammar. I don't think I'll ever play through all of Origins again, even though I know there's still more for me to seee in that game, just because I dread having to play through those parts again.

How can you stand Legacy in DA2 then?  That's almost three hours long.

Legacy is DLC, so it isn't required for me to beat the game?

So you avoid playing it when you play DA2?

[BubbleDncr]

Jerrybnsn wrote...

BubbleDncr wrote...

Jerrybnsn wrote...

BubbleDncr wrote...

........... the more I play it, the more I hate The Fade and Orzammar. I don't think I'll ever play through all of Origins again, even though I know there's still more for me to seee in that game, just because I dread having to play through those parts again.

How can you stand Legacy in DA2 then?  That's almost three hours long.

Legacy is DLC, so it isn't required for me to beat the game?

So you avoid playing it when you play DA2?

If I feel like playing it, I play it. If I don't, I don't. But I don't really consider it when I talk about DA2's replayability, since I had already completed 2 out of the 3 playthroughs I've done and was halfway through my 3rd before it came out. So far, I played it with my 1st two Hawkes, but it was so far serparated from my original playthroughs that it hardly felt like it was part of the same playthrough. Whether or not I play it on my future playthroughs will depends on if I feel like it. But since I'm never required to play it to get through the game, like I am for the Fade and Orzammar in DA:O, I will never dread replaying DA2 because of it.

[Fast Jimmy]

I feel like the Fade was a really cool concept in DA:O and I loved playing it. But I feel like if the different areas were framed better (it took me forever to even understand there WERE different themes until I looked at the map names), then it could have been cooler. Maybe if when you first entered an area, the demon who controlled that map were to appear and have a discussion with you, giving you a glimpse into the concept of that area, then disappear, leaving you to chase them down.

As it was, the boss demons there had no impact at all, aside from being named.

The Deep Roads I felt was broken up pretty well, with conversations with people/groups like Hespith, or the Legion of the Dead commander (can't think of name). Through in the cool lore items you found, the random quests that happened, characters like Ruck (I think that was his name...) and it overall gave a really good story. But, again, I could see how people think that was a huge issue that was boring to tears.

Although - the description above states "Orzammar" and not the Deep Roads... if that was truly the case, then I couldn't disagree more. The Dwarves were the best story/area of the entire game, for me. It was dark and not very pleasing to the eye, sure... but its an underground city. The intrigue, story and morality choices there were some of the best in DA:O.

Nothing in DA2 takes longer than thirty minutes to get through (DLC aside). And that is, in no way, a good thing.

[Ozzy]

I wouldn't mind if there was a just a check list we could tick off at the start of the game.