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You have hope. More than you think... [The ULTIMATE endings support thread]


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#426
Pitznik

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Fandango9641 wrote...

No, just an indication of how invested Mac and Casey were in defending their original endings. You see, if our not so dynamic duo decided to scribble some different words on the piece of toilet paper that detailed our extended endings, we would have got a different one. What a silly post.

You can't even discuss moral implications of the choice, if you do not acknowledge the reality, in which it is made, the context. If your ME3 is different than mine ME3, our choices have completely different meaning.

Btw, I appreciate that little reflection you added at the end - your post is indeed silly.

#427
Mazebook

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Fandango9641 wrote...

maaaze wrote...

Fandango9641 wrote...

Pitznik wrote...

Fandango9641 wrote...

So, could people confirm which slides do the best job of making a non-refusal Shep feel less like a war criminal?

Is the person who had the ability to stop the mass scale genocide but didn't a war criminal too?


If you're referring to Refuse then absolutely not. One has no way of knowing how that choice will play out without metagaming knowledge. That makes Refuse Shep an (allbeit rather stupid) victim of unfortunate circumstance, not an active participant in the destruction, subversion or suppression of entire species.


what a weak arguement.
You never know how your choises in life play out...

You have no idea if curing the genophage is a good thing or not...if keeping the collector base saves lifes or not...

you always have to make a guess of what the consequences of your actions will be.

saying i do nothing ...so i don´t do the wrong thing is absurd...it is clear that doing nothing will change nothing.
that the cycle will continue.

though choises are though for a reason. 


Absolute garbage, every word. Three solutions require Shep become an active participant in the destruction, subversion or suppression of entire species, the other does not. Whats not to understand?


you seem to think that non action does not bare consequences...which is false...you will have to live with the consequences of taking no action... because you could have prevented this.

...instead of losing something you loose everything for everyone.

Modifié par maaaze, 07 août 2012 - 10:10 .


#428
Guest_Fandango_*

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Pitznik wrote...

Fandango9641 wrote...


Absolute garbage, every word. Three solutions require Shep become an active participant in the destruction, subversion or suppression of entire species, the other does not. Whats not to understand?

That lack of action in certain situations is worse than action, even if that action is strictly evil. Especially if that action is something you personally are responsible for.


No, no one has the moral authority to enjoin slavery, genocide or what basically amounts to space-eugenics. Do you disagree?

#429
DirtyPhoenix

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HYR 2.0 wrote...

Wow. This thread gets more crap than Synthesis Compendium.


The funniest post has to be that guy's who claimed if you liked ME3 endings then you must be lying to yourself.:lol::lol::lol:

#430
DirtyPhoenix

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Fandango9641 wrote...

No, no one has the moral authority to enjoin slavery, genocide or what basically amounts to space-eugenics. Do you disagree?


To stop the reapers? To save ourselves from extinction? Yes I disagree.

Modifié par pirate1802, 07 août 2012 - 10:15 .


#431
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maaaze wrote...

you seem to think that non action does not bare consequences...which is false...you will have to live with the consequences of taking no action... because you could have prevented this.

...instead of losing something you loose everything for everyone.


What are you not getting? Yes every choice has it's consequences, but it's a simple matter of fact that Shep can not know the consequences of any choice prior to making it.

Modifié par Fandango9641, 07 août 2012 - 11:32 .


#432
Dysjong

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I like this Thread, lots of party, some good discussions and a rather positive tone.

I took synthesis in my first playthrough. Control was out of the question, i made TIM shoot himself, because of that. I couldnt destroy the reapers, mostly because of Joker, EDI and Legion. So that left me with synthesis

I didnt like the catalyst, not because of overanalyzed plot thinking or whatever anti ending have as argument. The reason that i hate the catalyst, is because it never, EVER says Shepard, not once. That made the final choice and the forbidden truth even more painful.

Modifié par Dysjong, 07 août 2012 - 10:20 .


#433
MegaSovereign

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:whistle:

Fandango9641 wrote...

Pitznik wrote...

Fandango9641 wrote...


Absolute garbage, every word. Three solutions require Shep become an active participant in the destruction, subversion or suppression of entire species, the other does not. Whats not to understand?

That lack of action in certain situations is worse than action, even if that action is strictly evil. Especially if that action is something you personally are responsible for.


No, no one has the moral authority to enjoin slavery, genocide or what basically amounts to space-eugenics. Do you disagree?


Or you can look at it from a practical standpoint, like a sane person.

Using the Crucible will save more lives than going at it conventionally --this is a fact. Even if conventional victory was possible, would you sacrifice millions of lives on principle/morals alone?

#434
Mazebook

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Fandango9641 wrote...

maaaze wrote...

you seem to think that non action does not bare consequences...which is false...you will have to live with the consequences of taking no action... because you could have prevented this.

...instead of losing something you loose everything for everyone.


What are you not getting? Yes every choice has it's consequences, but it's a simple matter of fact that Shep does not know the consequences of any.


other than refusal...the consequences are clear...they were established at the beginning of the game.

#435
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MegaSovereign wrote...

:whistle:

Fandango9641 wrote...

Pitznik wrote...

Fandango9641 wrote...


Absolute garbage, every word. Three solutions require Shep become an active participant in the destruction, subversion or suppression of entire species, the other does not. Whats not to understand?

That lack of action in certain situations is worse than action, even if that action is strictly evil. Especially if that action is something you personally are responsible for.


No, no one has the moral authority to enjoin slavery, genocide or what basically amounts to space-eugenics. Do you disagree?


Or you can look at it from a practical standpoint, like a sane person.

Using the Crucible will save more lives than going at it conventionally --this is a fact. Even if conventional victory was possible, would you sacrifice millions of lives on principle/morals alone?


So you do disagree? To answer your question (and within the context of ME3) I would absolutely choose to take the fight to the Reapers. That the game gives me the finger for doing so is on Mac and Casey, nothing more.

#436
Mazebook

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Dysjong wrote...

I like this Thread, lots of party, some good discussions and a rather positive tone.

I took synthesis in my first playthrough. Control was out of the question, i made TIM shoot himself, because of. I couldnt destroy the reapers, mostly because of Joker, EDI and Legion. So that left me synthesis.

I didnt like the catalyst, not because of overanalyzed plot thinking or whatever anti ending have as argument. The reason that i hate the catalyst, is because it nevet EVER says Shepard, not once. That made the final choice and the forbidden truth even more painful.


:happy:you are right...harbinger at least had manners...he knew peoples names.:D

#437
Pitznik

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Fandango9641 wrote...

Pitznik wrote...

Fandango9641 wrote...


Absolute garbage, every word. Three solutions require Shep become an active participant in the destruction, subversion or suppression of entire species, the other does not. Whats not to understand?

That lack of action in certain situations is worse than action, even if that action is strictly evil. Especially if that action is something you personally are responsible for.


No, no one has the moral authority to enjoin slavery, genocide or what basically amounts to space-eugenics. Do you disagree?

I disagree, because I don't see those actions as genocide or as slavery (wtf this come from?). What I see is collateral damage, innocent civilians dying when you drop bombs on military installation of your enemy. Terrorists dying along the hostages in one building, to save the whole city.

#438
Mazebook

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Fandango9641 wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

:whistle:

Fandango9641 wrote...

Pitznik wrote...

Fandango9641 wrote...


Absolute garbage, every word. Three solutions require Shep become an active participant in the destruction, subversion or suppression of entire species, the other does not. Whats not to understand?

That lack of action in certain situations is worse than action, even if that action is strictly evil. Especially if that action is something you personally are responsible for.


No, no one has the moral authority to enjoin slavery, genocide or what basically amounts to space-eugenics. Do you disagree?


Or you can look at it from a practical standpoint, like a sane person.

Using the Crucible will save more lives than going at it conventionally --this is a fact. Even if conventional victory was possible, would you sacrifice millions of lives on principle/morals alone?


So you do disagree? To answer your question (and within the context of ME3) I would absolutely choose to take the fight to the Reapers. That the game gives me the finger for doing so is on Mac and Casey, nothing more.


you can do that by using the crucible...it is established that the reapers are otherwise too powerfull to beat them.

#439
Pitznik

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Fandango9641 wrote...


So you do disagree? To answer your question (and within the context of ME3) I would absolutely choose to take the fight to the Reapers. That the game gives me the finger for doing so is on Mac and Casey, nothing more.

How are Mac and Casey within the context of ME3 again? You're confusing me.

#440
Guest_Fandango_*

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maaaze wrote...

Fandango9641 wrote...

maaaze wrote...

you seem to think that non action does not bare consequences...which is false...you will have to live with the consequences of taking no action... because you could have prevented this.

...instead of losing something you loose everything for everyone.


What are you not getting? Yes every choice has it's consequences, but it's a simple matter of fact that Shep does not know the consequences of any.


other than refusal...the consequences are clear...they were established at the beginning of the game.


Again no - the Catalyst could easily have been a weapon designed to tip the fight with the Reapers rather than some giant, metaphysical paintbrush.

#441
Guest_Fandango_*

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Pitznik wrote...

Fandango9641 wrote...


So you do disagree? To answer your question (and within the context of ME3) I would absolutely choose to take the fight to the Reapers. That the game gives me the finger for doing so is on Mac and Casey, nothing more.

How are Mac and Casey within the context of ME3 again? You're confusing me.


Mac and Casey wrote our endings Pitznik, didn't you know?

#442
Mazebook

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Fandango9641 wrote...

maaaze wrote...

Fandango9641 wrote...

maaaze wrote...

you seem to think that non action does not bare consequences...which is false...you will have to live with the consequences of taking no action... because you could have prevented this.

...instead of losing something you loose everything for everyone.


What are you not getting? Yes every choice has it's consequences, but it's a simple matter of fact that Shep does not know the consequences of any.


other than refusal...the consequences are clear...they were established at the beginning of the game.


Again no - the Catalyst could easily have been a weapon designed to tip the fight with the Reapers rather than some giant, metaphysical paintbrush.


well if you bringing your own fanfiction into this than there is no point in argueing anymore...

by the way : this is a ending support thread...you may discuss the ending as they are and not how you would have changed the enitre narrative of ME 3.

#443
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pirate1802 wrote...

Fandango9641 wrote...

No, no one has the moral authority to enjoin slavery, genocide or what basically amounts to space-eugenics. Do you disagree?


To stop the reapers? To save ourselves from extinction? Yes I disagree.


And now I get it - all the pro-enders been role-playing Mystic Meg.

#444
Pitznik

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Fandango9641 wrote...


Again no - the Catalyst could easily have been a weapon designed to tip the fight with the Reapers rather than some giant, metaphysical paintbrush.

Decision to make the Crucible versus conventional warfare.

unknown versus certain defeat - Shepard and everyone else sticks to and swears by unknown

Decision to use the Crucible versus conventional warfare (which now is even lower, because you managed to use your resources and military strength to build and deploy Crucible)

still unknown versus slightly more certain defeat

So now you changed your mind? Maybe you should do it in the beginning?

#445
MegaSovereign

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Fandango9641 wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

:whistle:

Fandango9641 wrote...

Pitznik wrote...

Fandango9641 wrote...


Absolute garbage, every word. Three solutions require Shep become an active participant in the destruction, subversion or suppression of entire species, the other does not. Whats not to understand?

That lack of action in certain situations is worse than action, even if that action is strictly evil. Especially if that action is something you personally are responsible for.


No, no one has the moral authority to enjoin slavery, genocide or what basically amounts to space-eugenics. Do you disagree?


Or you can look at it from a practical standpoint, like a sane person.

Using the Crucible will save more lives than going at it conventionally --this is a fact. Even if conventional victory was possible, would you sacrifice millions of lives on principle/morals alone?


So you do disagree? To answer your question (and within the context of ME3) I would absolutely choose to take the fight to the Reapers. That the game gives me the finger for doing so is on Mac and Casey, nothing more.


This is the problem with philosphical thinkers, they don't think practically.

If they gave us the choice of winning the war conventionally...just...think about it for a second. Let's say the sword fleet retakes Earth....They lose a bunch of men doing so, but whatever.

Then what? They go and liberate each system individually. Liberating the galaxy would take days if not weeks. On each home world, Reapers slaughter a couple million per day. By the time you destroy the last Reaper, dozens of millions of people would be dead.

No, you didn't directly cause their deaths, but your hands are still pretty ****ing dirty.

Modifié par MegaSovereign, 07 août 2012 - 10:34 .


#446
Pitznik

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Fandango9641 wrote...

Pitznik wrote...

Fandango9641 wrote...


So you do disagree? To answer your question (and within the context of ME3) I would absolutely choose to take the fight to the Reapers. That the game gives me the finger for doing so is on Mac and Casey, nothing more.

How are Mac and Casey within the context of ME3 again? You're confusing me.


Mac and Casey wrote our endings Pitznik, didn't you know?

I'm afraid you don't know what "within the context of ME3" means. You are Shepard, you don't know what could be, you have reality as presented by the game, and you have the information presented in game. You have the make your choice based on that, and that alone. There is no Mac and Casey within ME3.

#447
Dysjong

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The games gives you want, to finish the fight on your terms.

You refuse, fair enough, go for it.

And here is the consequence, the cycle continiued.

I don't see it as middle finger. It was a choice.

As Jarlaxle once told Dinin Do'Urden when he was giving a choice, between staying with the house or a place in Bregan D'aerthe.

Dinin: do i have a choice?

Jarlaxle: Of course, there always choices. Yours just don't happen to be very good at the moment

Modifié par Dysjong, 07 août 2012 - 10:38 .


#448
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Pitznik wrote...

Fandango9641 wrote...

Pitznik wrote...

Fandango9641 wrote...


So you do disagree? To answer your question (and within the context of ME3) I would absolutely choose to take the fight to the Reapers. That the game gives me the finger for doing so is on Mac and Casey, nothing more.

How are Mac and Casey within the context of ME3 again? You're confusing me.


Mac and Casey wrote our endings Pitznik, didn't you know?

I'm afraid you don't know what "within the context of ME3" means. You are Shepard, you don't know what could be, you have reality as presented by the game, and you have the information presented in game. You have the make your choice based on that, and that alone. There is no Mac and Casey within ME3.


Perhaps you should only respond to the posts of people you do understand eh?

#449
Bill Casey

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tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GodzillaThreshold

Godzilla Threshold

There are situations so bad that anything that would end them is justified. Anything.

There is wisdom in facing a threat with a proportionate response. Sure, There Is No Kill Like Overkill, but it'll likely cause a lot of avoidable collateral damage, and it'll guarantee that tomorrow the next threat is stronger. But there are times when the threat is so great and things have gone so horribly wrong that there is no appropriate response. The situation is so dire that it justifies the use of any and every thing that might solve it, no matter how crazy, nonsensical, or horrific, regardless of cost or collateral damage.

Things are at the point where even summoning Godzilla, king of monsters and patron saint of collateral damage, could not possibly make the crisis any worse. The situation has crossed the Godzilla Threshold.

Once the Threshold is crossed, ANY plan, with even the smallest possibility of success, no matter how ludicrous,
impossible, dangerous or abhorrent, suddenly becomes a valid option. This serves both narrative and authorial purposes. Suppose the heroes have an awesome weapon that nonetheless causes a lot of property damage, like a Kill Sat, or a captured or dormant monster. Or one knows a Dangerous Forbidden Technique that will put his life at risk. They have to use it, but it can't be done lightly without portraying them as either careless or cruel.
So the author contrives to make the situation call for its use in such clear terms the audience understands this was done as a last resort — and, if it's handled properly, the audience doesn't even notice.

Often, the threshold is engineered. If done wrong, it can cause some serious Fridge Logic. This is usually the case when the heroes' actions or failures to act cause the situation to cross the threshold. Usually, there's an Idiot Ball (or Idiot Plot), a General Ripper, or Poor Communication Kills to thank for that.

Some plots center around avoiding the Godzilla Threshold and keeping the trigger happy person in charge of the "failsafe" from pushing the button. Sometimes, they even succeed.

The Godzilla Threshold is what happens just before the Willfully Weak character gives the "World of Cardboard" Speech and turns the Power Limiter off, uses the Forbidden Chekhov's Gun, uses lethal powers, turns to the Nuclear Option, or casts Summon Bigger Fish. When begged, the All-Powerful Bystander may even be willing to lend a hand. In video games, this is the time to use items that are Too Awesome to Use.

Contrast The Unfettered, who lives and acts as though the situation is always past the Threshold, even when there's no good reason to do so. Compare the Tyson Zone.


blog.bioware.com/2012/07/31/operation-overwatch-success/

From: Admiral Steven Hackett
Re: Operation OVERWATCH
Confidentiality classification: XB-PRIME
Distribution: N7 Forces Only
Soldiers of the Milky Way –

By now you have probably heard that Operation OVERWATCH succeeded on many fronts. Frankly, I would not be surprised if this message goes unread until tomorrow due to excessive celebrating. You have struck the Reapers where they are strongest and lived to tell the tale. Credit goes to you, to those shuttle pilots who retrieved your teams, and to the many personnel who supported and planned the missions.

But I also want to speak to some of what you may be seeing in the media soon. Eventually, it will be public knowledge that we had operations on Earth, retrieving data and personnel necessary for the military and economic well-being of the galaxy.

This success will bring hope to billions of people. It will also enrage some of them. Be prepared for the tough questions – when are we starting our full-scale assault? Why retrieve this helium-3 magnate but not another one, or save my loved ones? Who are you to play God? There are no good answers to these questions. The reality is, the Reapers have almost every conceivable advantage — numbers, firepower, technology – and we make do with what we have. We strike and retreat because facing the foe head-on would be a disaster. Nowhere is this truer than at Earth.

We have started to give them a death by a thousand cuts. Take heart in this, celebrate, and relax tonight. Tomorrow morning, we will get down to business, because there’s nine hundred and ninety left to go.

–Admiral Hackett


Modifié par Bill Casey, 07 août 2012 - 10:42 .


#450
Guest_Fandango_*

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MegaSovereign wrote...

Fandango9641 wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

:whistle:

Fandango9641 wrote...

Pitznik wrote...

Fandango9641 wrote...


Absolute garbage, every word. Three solutions require Shep become an active participant in the destruction, subversion or suppression of entire species, the other does not. Whats not to understand?

That lack of action in certain situations is worse than action, even if that action is strictly evil. Especially if that action is something you personally are responsible for.


No, no one has the moral authority to enjoin slavery, genocide or what basically amounts to space-eugenics. Do you disagree?


Or you can look at it from a practical standpoint, like a sane person.

Using the Crucible will save more lives than going at it conventionally --this is a fact. Even if conventional victory was possible, would you sacrifice millions of lives on principle/morals alone?


So you do disagree? To answer your question (and within the context of ME3) I would absolutely choose to take the fight to the Reapers. That the game gives me the finger for doing so is on Mac and Casey, nothing more.


This is the problem with philosphical thinkers, they don't think practically.

If they gave us the choice of winning the war conventionally...just...think about it for a second. Let's say the sword fleet retakes Earth....They lose a bunch of men doing so, but whatever.

Then what? They go and liberate each system individually. Liberating the galaxy would take days if not weeks. On each home world, Reapers slaughter a couple million per day. By the time you destroy the last Reaper, dozens of millions of people would be dead.

No, you didn't directly cause their deaths, but your hands are still pretty ****ing dirty.


No doubt, but let's just remember for a second that each choice carries with it its own set of horrible consequences. Honestly, what a wretched conclusion.