1214 réponses à ce sujet

[Seival]

pirate1802 wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

Two of the endings have you defeat the Reapers. One of them (synthesis) lets you have a compromise with them to secure peace.

Living Reapers doesn't change the fact that they were still defeated.

And remember the reapers in synthesis are synthesized reapers. They are.. sort-of reverse indoctrinated if you may.. They are no longer the genocidal machines they were before (yes yes hurr durr indoctrination), they are freed from the catalyst's control.

How I see it:
Destroy: Reapers obliterated
Control: Reapers seized control of.
Synthesis: Reapers freed and made peace with.
Refusal: Reapers defeated in next cycle.

So all the endings lead to the defeat of the Old Machines.

I really doubt that next Cycle (or any subsequent Cycle) will be able to win after Refuse. Most likely the original Catalist will make sure noone will be able to use Crucible or anything similar. But more importantly, the original Catalist will be sure that organics can only fight to Refuse in the end, so it will never show indulgence to anyone again (even if they managed to use something like Crucible, the Catalist will not allow it's explosion to have any effect on the Reapers)...

...Also, I think that in case of Destroy the Reapers will not be destroyed completely. Their legacy will remain, and I believe they will be resurrected sooner or later (I think rather later than sooner).

[DirtyPhoenix]

But the catalyst seems quite intent of letting us use the crucible. Which is why he appears to be pissed when we don't use it.

And I think the post-destroy galaxy would be a dangerous one, but in a good way. Lots of factions trying to get their hands on reaper-tech. Infighting, groupism..
Exciting!

[Seival]

pirate1802 wrote...

But the catalyst seems quite intent of letting us use the crucible. Which is why he appears to be pissed when we don't use it.

And I think the post-destroy galaxy would be a dangerous one, but in a good way. Lots of factions trying to get their hands on reaper-tech. Infighting, groupism..
Exciting!

Indeed.

[Taboo]

Destroy isn't so much dangerous, as it is...open.

The Synthetic issue IS still there, at least hypothetically. However, as evidenced by the Epilouge slides, the Galaxy is going to be okay, and depending on what you did, it could even be prosperous.

I cured the Genophage for example with Wrex and Eve in charge, I get an adorable slide with Krogan mothers and their children. They are not going to war, they live in peace.

That alone tells me that even the once violent Krogan are capable of peace.

The Reapers are dead. Nothing will bring them back, and as again evidenced by their now defunct forms, they aren't really a risk.

[DistantUtopia]

So taking aside the ending debacle, each ending is really negative in it's own way from what I can interpret from it:

Control:
Reapers taken control of. Galaxy now has Reaper police force as well as a group to rebuild what was destroyed
Con: Regengade shep may be more controller-ish than protecting. Doesn't remove the fact that you will still have people that are bitter over the deaths caused by the Reapers.

Destroy:
Reaper threat removed completely (if understanding of the beam is true, i.e. galaxy spanning and not just in systems with relays).
Con: Rogue Synthetic race threat still exists. Geth (as individuals) and EDI are no longer around. Rebuilding takes longer

Synthesis:
Purpose for Reapers is removed (i.e. no more distinction between synthetics and organics?). Reapers are "free".
Con: "pure" Synthetic or "pure" Organic can still occur. Catalyst possibly still exists and is an unknown factor.

In all scenarios, given there are common slides to all, seem to imply there IS galactic peace at least within the first few decades. Past that, it's all an unknown.

[SeptimusMagistos]

Seival wrote...

I really doubt that next Cycle (or any subsequent Cycle) will be able to win after Refuse. Most likely the original Catalist will make sure noone will be able to use Crucible or anything similar. But more importantly, the original Catalist will be sure that organics can only fight to Refuse in the end, so it will never show indulgence to anyone again (even if they managed to use something like Crucible, the Catalist will not allow it's explosion to have any effect on the Reapers)...

I think it's meant to imply that the next cycle is able to win conventionally. Liara's VIs are presumably filled with comments like 'This is the Thanix cannon. You'll want these on your ships. And these are dark energy missiles.' or 'This is how to make geth. Link enough of them together and they'll become intelligent and very helpful. Don't attack them.'

[DirtyPhoenix]

About refusal, does the next cycle end up using the crucible anyway? I heard someone on twitter confirmed it. I know Liara states the crucible didn't work, but she still includes the crucible plan in the capsule. Regardless, when I saw the ending first time; I caught these lines of the stargazeress:
"they fought a terrible war, so that we don't have to".
So no war = no conventional victory = crucible victory? If that's the case then isn't refusal even more pointless? The next cycle used the crucible anyway so I didn't do anything but shift the burden.
Thoughts?

[Seival]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

Seival wrote...

I really doubt that next Cycle (or any subsequent Cycle) will be able to win after Refuse. Most likely the original Catalist will make sure noone will be able to use Crucible or anything similar. But more importantly, the original Catalist will be sure that organics can only fight to Refuse in the end, so it will never show indulgence to anyone again (even if they managed to use something like Crucible, the Catalist will not allow it's explosion to have any effect on the Reapers)...

I think it's meant to imply that the next cycle is able to win conventionally. Liara's VIs are presumably filled with comments like 'This is the Thanix cannon. You'll want these on your ships. And these are dark energy missiles.' or 'This is how to make geth. Link enough of them together and they'll become intelligent and very helpful. Don't attack them.'

I think that the entire ME Trilogy was built around several main ideas, and one of them is the fact that The Reapers can't be defeated conventionally.

[Seival]

pirate1802 wrote...

About refusal, does the next cycle end up using the crucible anyway? I heard someone on twitter confirmed it. I know Liara states the crucible didn't work, but she still includes the crucible plan in the capsule. Regardless, when I saw the ending first time; I caught these lines of the stargazeress:
"they fought a terrible war, so that we don't have to".
So no war = no conventional victory = crucible victory? If that's the case then isn't refusal even more pointless? The next cycle used the crucible anyway so I didn't do anything but shift the burden.
Thoughts?

Very grim thoughts actually:

I really doubt that next Cycle (or any subsequent Cycle) will be able to win after Refuse. Most likely the original Catalist will make sure noone will be able to use Crucible or anything similar. But more importantly, the original Catalist will be sure that organics can only fight to Refuse in the end, so it will never show indulgence to anyone again (even if they managed to use something like Crucible, the Catalist will not allow it's explosion to have any effect on the Reapers)...

...Even if some subsequent Cycle will be able to convince the original Catalist, the "New-Shepard" will be given the same choices. What will this "New-Shepard" choose? Refuse? That will be "very funny".

[DistantUtopia]

pirate1802 wrote...

About refusal, does the next cycle end up using the crucible anyway? I heard someone on twitter confirmed it. I know Liara states the crucible didn't work, but she still includes the crucible plan in the capsule. Regardless, when I saw the ending first time; I caught these lines of the stargazeress:
"they fought a terrible war, so that we don't have to".
So no war = no conventional victory = crucible victory? If that's the case then isn't refusal even more pointless? The next cycle used the crucible anyway so I didn't do anything but shift the burden.
Thoughts?

It depends what you consider canon.

The tweet came from Mike Gamble's twitter account and for some, they consider that as his own "head canon".  Personally, I'm with that camp that ignores Gamble's tweet unless it is confirmed via in-game sources.

But yes, if the next cycle (or whenever) still uses the Crucible anyway, the refusal ending does come off to some as "Don't like our endings? Well too bad.  Next cycle uses it anyway."

[DirtyPhoenix]

Heh, and then the next Shepard gets to choose and he shifts the blame on the next one.

Shepards:


The Catalyst:

[Seival]

pirate1802 wrote...

Heh, and then the next Shepard gets to choose and he shifts the blame on the next one.

Shepards:


The Catalyst:

...By the way. Maybe Crucible was already built and used before? Maybe there were refusers in previous Cycles? The original Catalyst just didn't tell Shepard about that to avoid one more face-palm... And after Shepard's refusal the original Catalist became REALLY angry.

[SeptimusMagistos]

Seival wrote...

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

Seival wrote...

I really doubt that next Cycle (or any subsequent Cycle) will be able to win after Refuse. Most likely the original Catalist will make sure noone will be able to use Crucible or anything similar. But more importantly, the original Catalist will be sure that organics can only fight to Refuse in the end, so it will never show indulgence to anyone again (even if they managed to use something like Crucible, the Catalist will not allow it's explosion to have any effect on the Reapers)...

I think it's meant to imply that the next cycle is able to win conventionally. Liara's VIs are presumably filled with comments like 'This is the Thanix cannon. You'll want these on your ships. And these are dark energy missiles.' or 'This is how to make geth. Link enough of them together and they'll become intelligent and very helpful. Don't attack them.'

I think that the entire ME Trilogy was built around several main ideas, and one of them is the fact that The Reapers can't be defeated conventionally.

They can't be defeated conventionally because three years of intermittently getting things together doesn't outweigh fifty thousand years of wrong technological development. Getting a message out early enough in the next cycle could very well change all that.

[Mazebook]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

Seival wrote...

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

Seival wrote...

I really doubt that next Cycle (or any subsequent Cycle) will be able to win after Refuse. Most likely the original Catalist will make sure noone will be able to use Crucible or anything similar. But more importantly, the original Catalist will be sure that organics can only fight to Refuse in the end, so it will never show indulgence to anyone again (even if they managed to use something like Crucible, the Catalist will not allow it's explosion to have any effect on the Reapers)...

I think it's meant to imply that the next cycle is able to win conventionally. Liara's VIs are presumably filled with comments like 'This is the Thanix cannon. You'll want these on your ships. And these are dark energy missiles.' or 'This is how to make geth. Link enough of them together and they'll become intelligent and very helpful. Don't attack them.'

I think that the entire ME Trilogy was built around several main ideas, and one of them is the fact that The Reapers can't be defeated conventionally.

They can't be defeated conventionally because three years of intermittently getting things together doesn't outweigh fifty thousand years of wrong technological development. Getting a message out early enough in the next cycle could very well change all that.

I think it would be possible.

If the next cycle founded a new religion based an Liaras capsule...which forbids the use of Mass Relays and the Citadel and encourages new technological paths...which would develop in a way the Reapers could not counter.

So they could have an unique advantage.

[Seival]

maaaze wrote...

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

Seival wrote...

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

Seival wrote...

I really doubt that next Cycle (or any subsequent Cycle) will be able to win after Refuse. Most likely the original Catalist will make sure noone will be able to use Crucible or anything similar. But more importantly, the original Catalist will be sure that organics can only fight to Refuse in the end, so it will never show indulgence to anyone again (even if they managed to use something like Crucible, the Catalist will not allow it's explosion to have any effect on the Reapers)...

I think it's meant to imply that the next cycle is able to win conventionally. Liara's VIs are presumably filled with comments like 'This is the Thanix cannon. You'll want these on your ships. And these are dark energy missiles.' or 'This is how to make geth. Link enough of them together and they'll become intelligent and very helpful. Don't attack them.'

I think that the entire ME Trilogy was built around several main ideas, and one of them is the fact that The Reapers can't be defeated conventionally.

They can't be defeated conventionally because three years of intermittently getting things together doesn't outweigh fifty thousand years of wrong technological development. Getting a message out early enough in the next cycle could very well change all that.

I think it would be possible.

If the next cycle founded a new religion based an Liaras capsule...which forbids the use of Mass Relays and the Citadel and encourages new technological paths...which would develop in a way the Reapers could not counter.

So they could have an unique advantage.

The Reapers spent trillions of years adapting to any unique advantages of their victims. Each Civilization harvested is the new knowlege and new advantage. Fighting the Reapers is like fighting millions of Galactic Civilizations which are like 1000 times more advanced than you...

...We don't even know Reapers real numbers. What if "our numbers will darken the sky of every world" is just a 0.001% of their total quantity? I strongly believe that Reapers can't be defeated conventionally.

Modifié par Seival, 09 août 2012 - 11:50 .

[Seival]

Also, I think that in ME Universe any technological advancement will lead to mass effect, mass relays (and so on), eventually. Even without researching the tech left by Reapers as a "trap". I believe this is the only possible path, and the Reapers walked through it for far too longer than anyone else.

[Mazebook]

Seival wrote...

Also, I think that in ME Universe any technological advancement will lead to mass effect, mass relays (and so on), eventually. Even without researching the tech left by Reapers as a "trap". I believe this is the only possible path, and the Reapers walked through it for far too longer than anyone else.

I don´t remember the exact lines but did not  Legion say something that would suggest otherwise? (In ME 2) 

I don´t say it would be likely that the Reapers would be beatable using a different technological path.
I just think it would be possible.

[DirtyPhoenix]

Hmm yes.. I think if warned at the earliest, and provided they don't spend time bickering and dismissing claims like we did.. they maybe able to defeat the reapers conventionally. Well they'll have a fighting chance atleast, unlike now. Had the council heeded Shepard's first warning after Eden Prime and prepared.. who knows.

Modifié par pirate1802, 10 août 2012 - 02:45 .

[DirtyPhoenix]

Anyone knows what that thing in the distance is? I can't make anything out.. City? Ship?

[Seival]

maaaze wrote...

Seival wrote...

Also, I think that in ME Universe any technological advancement will lead to mass effect, mass relays (and so on), eventually. Even without researching the tech left by Reapers as a "trap". I believe this is the only possible path, and the Reapers walked through it for far too longer than anyone else.

I don´t remember the exact lines but did not  Legion say something that would suggest otherwise? (In ME 2) 

I don´t say it would be likely that the Reapers would be beatable using a different technological path.
I just think it would be possible.

Well, I don't remember that too, but if true, then I should say even Legion could be wrong about that.

I believe there can be only one technological path. Just like there can be only one variant of mathematics and physics laws. Considering the fact that Reapers walk this path for far too longer than anyone (and keep walking), noone can become as advanced as the Reapers (at least in our galaxy).

Modifié par Seival, 10 août 2012 - 11:22 .

[Seival]

pirate1802 wrote...

Anyone knows what that thing in the distance is? I can't make anything out.. City? Ship?

Looks more like a ship I think.

[Mazebook]

Seival wrote...

maaaze wrote...

Seival wrote...

Also, I think that in ME Universe any technological advancement will lead to mass effect, mass relays (and so on), eventually. Even without researching the tech left by Reapers as a "trap". I believe this is the only possible path, and the Reapers walked through it for far too longer than anyone else.

I don´t remember the exact lines but did not  Legion say something that would suggest otherwise? (In ME 2) 

I don´t say it would be likely that the Reapers would be beatable using a different technological path.
I just think it would be possible.

Well, I don't remember that too, but if true, then I should say even Legion could be wrong about that.

I believe there can be only one technological path. Just like there can be only one variant of mathematics and physics laws. Considering the fact that Reapers walk this path for far too longer than anyone (and keep walking), noone can become as advanced as the Reapers (at least in our galaxy).

I found it. We are both right in the eyes of Legion.

Legion : " Technology is not a straight line. There are many Paths to the same end. Accepting anothers path blinds you to other alternatives. Soverign said this itself."

Source

The question is if the Mass Relays an the Citadel are the end of a Technological path.

[Seival]

maaaze wrote...

Seival wrote...

maaaze wrote...

Seival wrote...

Also, I think that in ME Universe any technological advancement will lead to mass effect, mass relays (and so on), eventually. Even without researching the tech left by Reapers as a "trap". I believe this is the only possible path, and the Reapers walked through it for far too longer than anyone else.

I don´t remember the exact lines but did not  Legion say something that would suggest otherwise? (In ME 2) 

I don´t say it would be likely that the Reapers would be beatable using a different technological path.
I just think it would be possible.

Well, I don't remember that too, but if true, then I should say even Legion could be wrong about that.

I believe there can be only one technological path. Just like there can be only one variant of mathematics and physics laws. Considering the fact that Reapers walk this path for far too longer than anyone (and keep walking), noone can become as advanced as the Reapers (at least in our galaxy).

I found it. We are both right in the eyes of Legion.

Legion : " Technology is not a straight line. There are many Paths to the same end. Accepting anothers path blinds you to other alternatives. Soverign said this itself."

Source

The question is if the Mass Relays an the Citadel are the end of a Technological path.

I believe that mass effect, mass relays and the rest of the Reaper tech are indeed the end of technological path. And all subsequent development is just an improvement of the Final Tech (which also has its limits).

[LiarasShield]

Heres my issues with all the endings


In pretty much every ending the reapers live


In Control we have a new catalyst that may continue the cycle or cause the reapers to destroy organics again in the future

Synthesis forces everybody to be part synthetic or organic against their will and suggests that everybody has to be the same or think the same for peace to even exist

Even in destroy we don't really beat the reapers the catalyst talks about the peace won't last and that the reapers and synthetics will be rebuilt by future generations

And it doesn't matter if you have a bunch dead reapers or reaper tech everywhere without the reapers knowledge of how to rebuild the relays they still can't rebuilds the relays in the destroy ending you can't rebuild something if you don't have the knowledge to build it in the first place.

Otherwise you may cause more destruction then you would want

Modifié par LiarasShield, 10 août 2012 - 01:43 .

[Seival]

LiarasShield wrote...

Heres my issues with all the endings


In pretty much every ending the reapers live


In Control we have a new catalyst that may continue the cycle or cause the reapers to destroy organics again in the future

Synthesis forces everybody to be part synthetic or organic against their will and suggests that everybody has to be the same or think the same for peace to even exist

Even in destroy we don't really beat the reapers the catalyst talks about the peace won't last and that the reapers and synthetics will be rebuilt by future generations

And it doesn't matter if you have a bunch dead reapers or reaper tech everywhere without the reapers knowledge of how to rebuild the relays they still can't rebuilds the relays in the destroy ending you can't rebuild something if you don't have the knowledge to build it in the first place.

Otherwise you may cause more destruction then you would want

Did you expect that the final choice in The Trilogy will be easy?

...That's silly. No offence

Modifié par Seival, 10 août 2012 - 01:53 .