1214 réponses à ce sujet

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Anyone got a satisfying answer for the how the catalyst does not completely invalidate ME1 by creating a major plothole for why Sovereign was needed?

[LiarasShield]

If I was a new player and wasn't attached to the characters then I'd probably be ok with the endings and the catalyst but I'm not a new player I did play the previous mass effects and their are too many issues with the catalyst and the endings themself just to let it slide

[MegaSovereign]

Lizardviking wrote...

Anyone got a satisfying answer for the how the catalyst does not completely invalidate ME1 by creating a major plothole for why Sovereign was needed?

Why is an explanation needed? The Catalyst has very limited physical control over the Citadel. 

Modifié par MegaSovereign, 10 août 2012 - 04:39 .

[wizardryforever]

Lizardviking wrote...

Anyone got a satisfying answer for the how the catalyst does not completely invalidate ME1 by creating a major plothole for why Sovereign was needed?

Simple.  The Catalyst doesn't get involved in the details of the harvest.  He gives the Reapers orders and lets them handle it.  It's also possible that he has no direct control over the Citadel and its systems, and relies on the keepers to keep him functional.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

MegaSovereign wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

Anyone got a satisfying answer for the how the catalyst does not completely invalidate ME1 by creating a major plothole for why Sovereign was needed?

Why is an explanation needed? The Catalyst has very limited physical control over the Citadel. 

The catalyst has control over the elevator right? So why would he not have control over one of the most crucial aspects of his entire operation.

[Mazebook]

Lizardviking wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

Anyone got a satisfying answer for the how the catalyst does not completely invalidate ME1 by creating a major plothole for why Sovereign was needed?

Why is an explanation needed? The Catalyst has very limited physical control over the Citadel. 

The catalyst has control over the elevator right? So why would he not have control over one of the most crucial aspects of his entire operation.

No he does not, there is no piece of evidence that suggest that.
It is far more likely that the crucible activated the lift.
If the Catalyst had control over the Citadel, Shepard would have not been able to open the arms.

Modifié par maaaze, 10 août 2012 - 04:45 .

[LiarasShield]

maaaze wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

Anyone got a satisfying answer for the how the catalyst does not completely invalidate ME1 by creating a major plothole for why Sovereign was needed?

Why is an explanation needed? The Catalyst has very limited physical control over the Citadel. 

The catalyst has control over the elevator right? So why would he not have control over one of the most crucial aspects of his entire operation.

No he does not, there is no piece of evidence that suggest that.
It is far more likely that the crucible activated the lift.
If the Catalyst had control over the Citadel, Shepard would have been able to open the arms.

You do know that the only reason that he or she didn't get to do that was from passing out from blood loss....?

[Seival]

I have some fan-fiction thoughts on the endings you might find interesting
http://social.biowar.../index/13610561

[MegaSovereign]

Lizardviking wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

Anyone got a satisfying answer for the how the catalyst does not completely invalidate ME1 by creating a major plothole for why Sovereign was needed?

Why is an explanation needed? The Catalyst has very limited physical control over the Citadel. 

The catalyst has control over the elevator right? So why would he not have control over one of the most crucial aspects of his entire operation.

Because he's an AI; the embodiment of the Reaper collective. The Reapers are his physical platforms.

Why would control over the elevator lead you to believe that he can single handedly fix the Prothean sabotage?

[wizardryforever]

LiarasShield wrote...

maaaze wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

Anyone got a satisfying answer for the how the catalyst does not completely invalidate ME1 by creating a major plothole for why Sovereign was needed?

Why is an explanation needed? The Catalyst has very limited physical control over the Citadel. 

The catalyst has control over the elevator right? So why would he not have control over one of the most crucial aspects of his entire operation.

No he does not, there is no piece of evidence that suggest that.
It is far more likely that the crucible activated the lift.
If the Catalyst had control over the Citadel, Shepard would have been able to open the arms.

You do know that the only reason that he or she didn't get to do that was from passing out from blood loss....?

What exactly are you talking about?  Shepard opens the arms for the Crucible to dock.  If the Catalyst had full control, he wouldn't have allowed that to happen.

[Mazebook]

LiarasShield wrote...

maaaze wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

Anyone got a satisfying answer for the how the catalyst does not completely invalidate ME1 by creating a major plothole for why Sovereign was needed?

Why is an explanation needed? The Catalyst has very limited physical control over the Citadel. 

The catalyst has control over the elevator right? So why would he not have control over one of the most crucial aspects of his entire operation.

No he does not, there is no piece of evidence that suggest that.
It is far more likely that the crucible activated the lift.
If the Catalyst had control over the Citadel, Shepard would have been able to open the arms.

You do know that the only reason that he or she didn't get to do that was from passing out from blood loss....?

What do you mean? Shaperd did open the arms of the citadel and then sat down to talk with Anderson.

[DirtyPhoenix]

LiarasShield wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...
Also Pitznik The Reapers Are Synthetic and Catalyst is A Virtual intelligence U_u

Reapers are organic-synthetic hybrids, and the catalyst is an artificial intelligence. Also, what drastic alteration of plot are we talking about?

Their was np hint to the catalyst or any reaper collective virtual intelligence in either me1 or me2 the reapers as we saw were powerful intelligent unifed machines willing to wipe us out also they didn't really need a explaination for why they did things

But in me3 we still know nothing of the catalyst until the last 5 or 10 minutes he effectively becomes the new main antagonist or effectilve alters mass effect 1 or 2 in the last ten minutes you don't alter the plot you don't introduce a new main character that completely alters the story or the reapers in the final minutes of a story that just isn't acceptable.

Well like I said earlier, the ending is not exactly an example of watertight ending. What weirdness is there, I can stomach that, but this varies between individuals. As long as something doesn't break my suspension of disbelief I don't go nitpicking. There are plot holes, sure, but nothing my SoD can't handle. There are places where it breaks, like that Normandy evac scene, but mostly it holds. And its not like ME3 is the only game to have plot holes (that term is used to describe everything that people don't understand nowadays). After seeing Shepard survive and the Lazarus project in ME2 I guess I'm ready for anything.

About the catalyst and reaper's motives: Yes, in ME1 and 2 the reapers seemed free and individualistic. But we have seen indoctrinated beings. saren, TIM, both believed they were free and had complete control over their actions when infact they had none. The reapers are being controlled by the catalyst, its possible they themselves are indoctrinated and behave like indoctrinated beings, believing they are free and each a nation..free from weakness bla bla bla, while doing the catalyst's bidding. Also, there was a bit of foreshadowing of the reapers having a controller on Thessia.

About the reapers not needing any explanations, I disagree. I would have wanted an explanation. I don't find bad guys who are evil just for the sake of it, very interesting. It's a personal thing, and I can't say I'm thrilled with the explanation I got eventually, but nonetheless I'd have been equally disappointed if they ended the trilogy without telling us of the reaper's origins.

[AresKeith]

maaaze wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

Anyone got a satisfying answer for the how the catalyst does not completely invalidate ME1 by creating a major plothole for why Sovereign was needed?

Why is an explanation needed? The Catalyst has very limited physical control over the Citadel. 

The catalyst has control over the elevator right? So why would he not have control over one of the most crucial aspects of his entire operation.

No he does not, there is no piece of evidence that suggest that.
It is far more likely that the crucible activated the lift.
If the Catalyst had control over the Citadel, Shepard would have not been able to open the arms.

the Crucible doesn't do aything but power the "choices" your givin

[Pitznik]

We don't know much about Catalyst. We don't know, if he is even there, able to manifest, without the Crucible. The fact "space magic interface" seems to be part of the Citadel, and not of the Crucible, suggests that Crucible was originally part of the Citadel.

[LiarasShield]

pirate1802 wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...
Also Pitznik The Reapers Are Synthetic and Catalyst is A Virtual intelligence U_u

Reapers are organic-synthetic hybrids, and the catalyst is an artificial intelligence. Also, what drastic alteration of plot are we talking about?

Their was np hint to the catalyst or any reaper collective virtual intelligence in either me1 or me2 the reapers as we saw were powerful intelligent unifed machines willing to wipe us out also they didn't really need a explaination for why they did things

But in me3 we still know nothing of the catalyst until the last 5 or 10 minutes he effectively becomes the new main antagonist or effectilve alters mass effect 1 or 2 in the last ten minutes you don't alter the plot you don't introduce a new main character that completely alters the story or the reapers in the final minutes of a story that just isn't acceptable.

Well like I said earlier, the ending is not exactly an example of watertight ending. What weirdness is there, I can stomach that, but this varies between individuals. As long as something doesn't break my suspension of disbelief I don't go nitpicking. There are plot holes, sure, but nothing my SoD can't handle. There are places where it breaks, like that Normandy evac scene, but mostly it holds. And its not like ME3 is the only game to have plot holes (that term is used to describe everything that people don't understand nowadays). After seeing Shepard survive and the Lazarus project in ME2 I guess I'm ready for anything.

About the catalyst and reaper's motives: Yes, in ME1 and 2 the reapers seemed free and individualistic. But we have seen indoctrinated beings. saren, TIM, both believed they were free and had complete control over their actions when infact they had none. The reapers are being controlled by the catalyst, its possible they themselves are indoctrinated and behave like indoctrinated beings, believing they are free and each a nation..free from weakness bla bla bla, while doing the catalyst's bidding. Also, there was a bit of foreshadowing of the reapers having a controller on Thessia.

About the reapers not needing any explanations, I disagree. I would have wanted an explanation. I don't find bad guys who are evil just for the sake of it, very interesting. It's a personal thing, and I can't say I'm thrilled with the explanation I got eventually, but nonetheless I'd have been equally disappointed if they ended the trilogy without telling us of the reaper's origins.

Well in this case they didn't need a explaination and they were fine being individualistc but not only did they alter the story or give a new antagonist in the last 5 or 10 minutes they tryed to justify his means by saying


My synthetic reapers are here to kill you so that you won't make other synthetics that will kill you his claims before the extended was that he was trying to save us from synthetics and yet infected the geth network and used the geth against as he tried to claim that they were trying to protect us from synthetics RAWRRR.

[Applepie_Svk]

Pitznik wrote...

We don't know much about Catalyst. We don't know, if he is even there, able to manifest, without the Crucible. The fact "space magic interface" seems to be part of the Citadel, and not of the Crucible, suggests that Crucible was originally part of the Citadel.

You shouldn´t say that in presence of Maaaze ... 

[DirtyPhoenix]

Lizardviking wrote...
The catalyst has control over the elevator right? So why would he not have control over one of the most crucial aspects of his entire operation.

Are you sure? because in the low-EMS situation the catalyst is surprised (and annoyed) to find Shepard there. You'd think he'd not be surprised if he himself brought him there.

[SeptimusMagistos]

LiarasShield wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...
Also Pitznik The Reapers Are Synthetic and Catalyst is A Virtual intelligence U_u

Reapers are organic-synthetic hybrids, and the catalyst is an artificial intelligence. Also, what drastic alteration of plot are we talking about?

Their was np hint to the catalyst or any reaper collective virtual intelligence in either me1 or me2 the reapers as we saw were powerful intelligent unifed machines willing to wipe us out also they didn't really need a explaination for why they did things

But in me3 we still know nothing of the catalyst until the last 5 or 10 minutes he effectively becomes the new main antagonist or effectilve alters mass effect 1 or 2 in the last ten minutes you don't alter the plot you don't introduce a new main character that completely alters the story or the reapers in the final minutes of a story that just isn't acceptable.

Well like I said earlier, the ending is not exactly an example of watertight ending. What weirdness is there, I can stomach that, but this varies between individuals. As long as something doesn't break my suspension of disbelief I don't go nitpicking. There are plot holes, sure, but nothing my SoD can't handle. There are places where it breaks, like that Normandy evac scene, but mostly it holds. And its not like ME3 is the only game to have plot holes (that term is used to describe everything that people don't understand nowadays). After seeing Shepard survive and the Lazarus project in ME2 I guess I'm ready for anything.

About the catalyst and reaper's motives: Yes, in ME1 and 2 the reapers seemed free and individualistic. But we have seen indoctrinated beings. saren, TIM, both believed they were free and had complete control over their actions when infact they had none. The reapers are being controlled by the catalyst, its possible they themselves are indoctrinated and behave like indoctrinated beings, believing they are free and each a nation..free from weakness bla bla bla, while doing the catalyst's bidding. Also, there was a bit of foreshadowing of the reapers having a controller on Thessia.

About the reapers not needing any explanations, I disagree. I would have wanted an explanation. I don't find bad guys who are evil just for the sake of it, very interesting. It's a personal thing, and I can't say I'm thrilled with the explanation I got eventually, but nonetheless I'd have been equally disappointed if they ended the trilogy without telling us of the reaper's origins.

Well in this case they didn't need a explaination and they were fine being individualistc but not only did they alter the story or give a new antagonist in the last 5 or 10 minutes they tryed to justify his means by saying


My synthetic reapers are here to kill you so that you won't make other synthetics that will kill you his claims before the extended was that he was trying to save us from synthetics and yet infected the geth network and used the geth against as he tried to claim that they were trying to protect us from synthetics RAWRRR.

You're not meant to agree with him.

That's why when he explains his motives every single dialogue option has you arguing with him.

Also what's your problem with plot twists during the last ten minutes? That happens all the time.

[Pitznik]

LiarasShield wrote...

My synthetic reapers are here to kill you so that you won't make other synthetics that will kill you his claims before the extended was that he was trying to save us from synthetics and yet infected the geth network and used the geth against as he tried to claim that they were trying to protect us from synthetics RAWRRR.

Every genocide in history was motivated by logic that we currently find ridiculous, unbelievable and horrible. Isn't it fitting?

Applepie_Svk : Why?

[Mazebook]

AresKeith wrote...

maaaze wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

Anyone got a satisfying answer for the how the catalyst does not completely invalidate ME1 by creating a major plothole for why Sovereign was needed?

Why is an explanation needed? The Catalyst has very limited physical control over the Citadel. 

The catalyst has control over the elevator right? So why would he not have control over one of the most crucial aspects of his entire operation.

No he does not, there is no piece of evidence that suggest that.
It is far more likely that the crucible activated the lift.
If the Catalyst had control over the Citadel, Shepard would have not been able to open the arms.

the Crucible doesn't do aything but power the "choices" your givin

before the lift takes off there you can hear a sound that suggest something was turned on...we know the Curcible was designed to power things on and that it is adaptive. So everything points to the crucible being the source of the lift taking off.

It makes no sense that the Catalyst would power up the lift because it would contradict other statements he made.

"the fact that you are standing here...the first organic." for example...he clearly states that he did not expect you being at place from where you could activate the crucible.

[LiarasShield]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...
Also Pitznik The Reapers Are Synthetic and Catalyst is A Virtual intelligence U_u

Reapers are organic-synthetic hybrids, and the catalyst is an artificial intelligence. Also, what drastic alteration of plot are we talking about?

Their was np hint to the catalyst or any reaper collective virtual intelligence in either me1 or me2 the reapers as we saw were powerful intelligent unifed machines willing to wipe us out also they didn't really need a explaination for why they did things

But in me3 we still know nothing of the catalyst until the last 5 or 10 minutes he effectively becomes the new main antagonist or effectilve alters mass effect 1 or 2 in the last ten minutes you don't alter the plot you don't introduce a new main character that completely alters the story or the reapers in the final minutes of a story that just isn't acceptable.

Well like I said earlier, the ending is not exactly an example of watertight ending. What weirdness is there, I can stomach that, but this varies between individuals. As long as something doesn't break my suspension of disbelief I don't go nitpicking. There are plot holes, sure, but nothing my SoD can't handle. There are places where it breaks, like that Normandy evac scene, but mostly it holds. And its not like ME3 is the only game to have plot holes (that term is used to describe everything that people don't understand nowadays). After seeing Shepard survive and the Lazarus project in ME2 I guess I'm ready for anything.

About the catalyst and reaper's motives: Yes, in ME1 and 2 the reapers seemed free and individualistic. But we have seen indoctrinated beings. saren, TIM, both believed they were free and had complete control over their actions when infact they had none. The reapers are being controlled by the catalyst, its possible they themselves are indoctrinated and behave like indoctrinated beings, believing they are free and each a nation..free from weakness bla bla bla, while doing the catalyst's bidding. Also, there was a bit of foreshadowing of the reapers having a controller on Thessia.

About the reapers not needing any explanations, I disagree. I would have wanted an explanation. I don't find bad guys who are evil just for the sake of it, very interesting. It's a personal thing, and I can't say I'm thrilled with the explanation I got eventually, but nonetheless I'd have been equally disappointed if they ended the trilogy without telling us of the reaper's origins.

Well in this case they didn't need a explaination and they were fine being individualistc but not only did they alter the story or give a new antagonist in the last 5 or 10 minutes they tryed to justify his means by saying


My synthetic reapers are here to kill you so that you won't make other synthetics that will kill you his claims before the extended was that he was trying to save us from synthetics and yet infected the geth network and used the geth against as he tried to claim that they were trying to protect us from synthetics RAWRRR.

You're not meant to agree with him.

That's why when he explains his motives every single dialogue option has you arguing with him.

Also what's your problem with plot twists during the last ten minutes? That happens all the time.

Well it isn't acceptable and I think you're lieing or overexaggerating a lot their hasn't been too many severe plots twists that altered a triliogy or undid what the other games or movies did in a series

At least not that I have seen in my twenty years of life

Modifié par LiarasShield, 10 août 2012 - 04:57 .

[Applepie_Svk]

Pitznik wrote...

Applepie_Svk : Why?

Because he doesn´t like when someone´s rational headcannon about Catalyst intercept with his own ...

Modifié par Applepie_Svk, 10 août 2012 - 05:00 .

[Mazebook]

Pitznik wrote...

We don't know much about Catalyst. We don't know, if he is even there, able to manifest, without the Crucible. The fact "space magic interface" seems to be part of the Citadel, and not of the Crucible, suggests that Crucible was originally part of the Citadel.

Yes we know very little about the origins of the Crucible. We know that the designs have changed many times...and that each cycle added their knowlege into the design.
So I can´t see how the crucible could be a original part of the citadel if it has changed so many times and it in its early stages it was not even designed with the citadel in mind. 

We know that it is adaptive and design with a purpose in mind.
The Crucible is one piece ...the citadel another. Combined they are something new, that can change the Universe.

[Mazebook]

Applepie_Svk wrote...

Pitznik wrote...

Applepie_Svk : Why?

Because he doesn´t like when someone´s rational headcannon about Catalyst intercept with his own ...

I wouldn´t take anything Applepie says seriously..he likes to troll...here and there...and brings things up out of context.

But to the original discussion....I have facts to back this up...listen to the dialoge with the prothean A.I. on the cerberus base and you will find out that the crucible was not designed at first to be combined with the citadel...so it could not be a part of it originally.

Modifié par maaaze, 10 août 2012 - 05:07 .

[DirtyPhoenix]

Liarasshield wrote...Well in this case they didn't need a explaination and they were fine being individualistc but not only did they alter the story or give a new antagonist in the last 5 or 10 minutes they tryed to justify his means by saying


My synthetic reapers are here to kill you so that you won't make other synthetics that will kill you his claims before the extended was that he was trying to save us from synthetics and yet infected the geth network and used the geth against as he tried to claim that they were trying to protect us from synthetics RAWRRR.

1. Giving an explanation to something =/= Altering the story. I showed how the reapers can be "independent" yet controlled by the reapers. And wanting an explanation or not is a personal thing. You didn't want an explanation, I did, so it's good for me I guess.

2. Its a rogue AI, what do you expect? If all villains had perfectly sane logic and behaved normally they'll not be villains in the first place. The villains of Assassin's Creed operate on similar frakked up logic, they believe all of humanity must be mind controlled or they will kill each other in conflict. In Asimov's I' Robot, the AI V.I.K.I believes humanity must be dominated to save it from itself. There are many examples villains with frakked up logic. People don't try to make sense of them because they aren't supposed to. If the catalyst behaved logically it wouldn't be reaping. It would have been mediating peace, yet it went cuckoo and ended up here. there is no sense in its logic because there isn't supposed to be any.