1214 réponses à ce sujet

[DirtyPhoenix]

Neither of the ending epilogues show any negative consequences honestly. It pisses me off too. But it being Bioware's preferred option never played into my mind when I chose synthesis. Bioware might well have told me refuse was the best and the starchild can rant about it all it wants I'll still choose synthesis.

[I SOLD MY SOUL TO BIOWARE]

JeffZero wrote...

SergeantSnookie wrote...

What I really dug about the (EC) endings was the cinematography of it. The Normandy flying into the distance with one final run of the Mass Effect theme was a gorgeous closing shot for the series.

Gave me epic goosebumps. :3

That is an absolutely breathtaking version of the theme too. That closing shot is easily in my faves list.

Indeed. What made it even better was how reminiscent it was to this.

Modifié par SergeantSnookie, 11 août 2012 - 04:28 .

[Essalor]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

Essalor wrote...

@septimus

You don't look at the solutions from the same angle as I do.

True. The distinction between hard and soft science fiction just doesn't bother me. I can see why you'd find that annoying, though.

But you have to admit that in terms of pure theme having a sudden and unforeseen third option that can be regarded as better than any of the others is pretty much what Mass Effect is all about.

It bugs me and a lot people because it's a different suspesion of disbelief. That's what defines a genre. If you accept the premise of synthesis then you accept fairies and magic too in ME. You can throw out all codex entries and stuff, why waste time on those? Or maybe you always though of ME as magical and saw it as a fantasy. Kind of like True Blood (if you watch that show), they keep piling on Vampires, gods, witches, fairies and other junk and somehow it still makes sense because we accept the premise of magic since episode one. 

Mass Effect was not like that for 99% of the game. 

I don't mind an unforseen option. Hell, I love a twist ending. But this is an ending to franchise and they had to be more careful than that. They had either to find an option that fits the lore or stick to the basics. We resolved all the conflicts already, united the galaxy as we saw fit that last one wasn't necessary to feel fulfilled from the game. 

[edited for grammar]

Modifié par Essalor, 11 août 2012 - 04:37 .

[Essalor]

pirate1802 wrote...

Neither of the ending epilogues show any negative consequences honestly. It pisses me off too. But it being Bioware's preferred option never played into my mind when I chose synthesis. Bioware might well have told me refuse was the best and the starchild can rant about it all it wants I'll still choose synthesis.

Not if you have below 2800 EMS, no you don't! If you have above all endings are sugar-coated. You are a completionist, mate!

[DirtyPhoenix]

Yup. Synthesis and starchild needed more foreshadowing and less space magic.

[wizardryforever]

pirate1802 wrote...

Yup. Synthesis and starchild needed more foreshadowing and less space magic.

Well that's the thing.  There isn't really a decent explanation for how synthesis is possible, in any universe.  So rather than make it look stupid (or stupider, if you think it is already stupid), they simply made it as vague as possible in how it works, choosing instead to focus on the results.  I do feel that someone should have brought up the idea at some point before the end though.

I choose to focus more on the results of synthesis than the how it works.  It seems that people like to fixate on the "how" and then make up stuff to fit their own dark interpretation of synthesis rather than just take what we're shown at face value.  Let's be fair here, destroy isn't adequately explained how it works, neither is control, but people don't complain about those simply because they can be handwaved easier.  The Crucible is "space magic", and all endings are a result of that.  Synthesis is not unique in that regard, and this is the case for many of the arguments against synthesis.

[DirtyPhoenix]

Essalor wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

Neither of the ending epilogues show any negative consequences honestly. It pisses me off too. But it being Bioware's preferred option never played into my mind when I chose synthesis. Bioware might well have told me refuse was the best and the starchild can rant about it all it wants I'll still choose synthesis.

Not if you have below 2800 EMS, no you don't! If you have above all endings are sugar-coated. You are a completionist, mate!

Lol, you can say that. I scan every planet and do every side mission almost out of habit, as much as I hate those fetch quests, I do those too. It doesn't feel right to me to have anything left behind before making the final push.

Yep the endings are sugar-coated. If it was me I'd have included some deactivated Geth lying around on Rannoch in destroy, show some reapers fighting among each other, or some people who are not happy with the changes in synthesis maybe.. and Shepard-catalyst putting down some offender with his/her reapers in control.

[DirtyPhoenix]

wizardryforever wrote...
I choose to focus more on the results of synthesis than the how it works.  It seems that people like to fixate on the "how" and then make up stuff to fit their own dark interpretation of synthesis rather than just take what we're shown at face value.  Let's be fair here, destroy isn't adequately explained how it works, neither is control, but people don't complain about those simply because they can be handwaved easier.  The Crucible is "space magic", and all endings are a result of that.  Synthesis is not unique in that regard, and this is the case for many of the arguments against synthesis.

I choose to do that too, because honestly there is not much "how" unless I'm willing to headcanon. Don't get me wrong, I like synthesis the most among the endings, like the underlying message, but it is badly executed. So I choose to focus on the message and effects rather than the mechanism of how it is achieved. Because there isn't much sense to be made there..
Synthesis required the most exposition due to its nature, more than the other choices. The other choices are magicky too, but synthesis is the most.
Last night I was thinking how just a few more lines of dialog would have made synthesis seem less space magicky.

[DirtyPhoenix]

For example, Genophage virus spreads from a single point and affects every living cell of every Krogan on an entire planet. Something like that on a bigger scale?

[Essalor]

wizardryforever wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

Yup. Synthesis and starchild needed more foreshadowing and less space magic.

Well that's the thing.  There isn't really a decent explanation for how synthesis is possible, in any universe.  So rather than make it look stupid (or stupider, if you think it is already stupid), they simply made it as vague as possible in how it works, choosing instead to focus on the results.  I do feel that someone should have brought up the idea at some point before the end though.

I choose to focus more on the results of synthesis than the how it works.  It seems that people like to fixate on the "how" and then make up stuff to fit their own dark interpretation of synthesis rather than just take what we're shown at face value.  Let's be fair here, destroy isn't adequately explained how it works, neither is control, but people don't complain about those simply because they can be handwaved easier.  The Crucible is "space magic", and all endings are a result of that.  Synthesis is not unique in that regard, and this is the case for many of the arguments against synthesis.

You can do that. But for those people who care about how, ME always had a solid explanation or at least some foundation for one. Say Genophage: particles spread through atmosphere... you know.. this is possible. Control and Destroy: Reaper control signals like in a computer... makes sense... Project Lazarus: tissue cloning and implants in a lab... still possible even if those elements are poorly explained.

I can't fathom radiation that affects organics and synthetics simultaneously and gives ones sould and others implants no matter how hard I try. It doesn't make sense on the level of Primary School biology class. I guess you can fixate just on the results but that doesn't work if you are invested in the Codex and basic foundations of the universe. This is why it's a fantasy: like in Star Wars you only care about relationships and not how ships work. ME is not Star Wars because it's not a fantasy in it's core.

[Jassu1979]

I agree that it's pretty much impossible to render synthesis less space-magicy.

The thing is: synthesis might even be the best and most viable solution to the problem of a tech singularity. But the problem is how they implemented it in the game.

Basically, the galaxy was *already moving in that very direction*: EDI modifying her program to be more "organic" in her way of thinking and feeling; the geth and the quarians living in a state of symbiosis (with the geth inhabiting the suits and improving the immune systems of the organics).

No green space magic or instant transformation was necessary. The galaxy had already demonstrated that organics and synthetics were not only NOT at war by default, but also that they were developing in a direction that would eventually integrate the two concepts.

[DirtyPhoenix]

Its possible to render it less space magicky but the writers didn't do it for unknown reasons. Being chased by the rEApers, maybe didn't have time. Or for some weird reason thought it is better to let it be vague and magic-like. Or they were going too hard for symbolism. Either way its shoddy work.

And yes what you are saying that the galaxy was already moving there is true. My thinking was, left on their own, the galaxy will eventually reach synthesis. Maybe in a few hundred years, maybe in a thousand years. Organics will use implants more and more, and synthetics will modify their codes to make themselves more and more organic-like. The Geth already did a sort of mini-Synthesis on Rannoch, upgrading themselves with reaper codes. So I thought if its a good thing and its going to happen eventually, might as well make it happen now and save the time. Yup I do it without everyone's consent and yep I know Mordin's discussion about civilizations not being "ready" but that's the bargain.

[Seival]

Essalor wrote...

I think you just demonstrated the typical attitude of a player, who got used to simple and typical standard endings: "They tell me the Destroy is the only option through the entire game, but then they tell me that the TIM was right about control possibility, and gave me one more option which noone even told about before! WTF? I came here to kill da Reapers, embrace LI and watch the beautiful sunset with titles! Why should I choose anything?! Just give me da imba-anti-reapers-thanix-rocket-launcher!"...

...That's silly. Personally, I'm completely tired of the type of endings most whiners want for ME Trilogy. You can find such thing in any standard game out there. If you don't want phylosophical and instructive story, then maybe sci-fi genre is just not for you? Try some action or comedy.

...No offence.

Well first of all, the Control and Destroy endings are both fine thematically as they were developed and have proponents through the game. However, in the way they are presented they don't make sense and feel detached, mainly because of the new character. I'd rather he presented completely different options not related to any previous character rather than repeating them + one extra. That's the whole point of shoving him into the game?

If we were to follow the narrative then, yes, Destroy is the ending we were most promised and in the eyes of the Alliance, all races and Anderson this is the victory. Control is something TIM said we could do, only we can never agree with him and have to kill him in the last scene before the Star Child appears and tells me it's an option now... The sad part is when we see our options we see the faces of TIM and Anderson supporting their own endings, but we just had a scene with them 5 minutes ago(!)

In any case, the endings don't suck because they are bleak. they suck because they don't fit the narrative, don't represent our choices within the game. All other conflicts were resolved through numerous hours of fight, choices and solutions/results which reflect those choices.

P.S. Synthesis is BS. No offense, this ending sucks, it sucks whether you choose it or not, just its presence in game is revolting. It ruins the narrative, introduces magic into science fiction and therefore ignores Writing 101. The guy who came up with it have not played or understood the core tenets and foundations of ME series. So yeah, I will complain all I want about that one.

I think that the endings fit the narrative just perfectly. And all those "sudden events and explanations in last minutes of the game" are actually the brilliant story trick. The endings are absolutely unpredictable, stunning, and instructive. The final choice is really tough, and it's really interesting to make that choice according to your own way of thinking. And then discuss your decision with people with the same or other ways of thinking.

[Seival]

...And the endings definitely represent our choices within the game. You should play the game with EC installed I suppose

[Seival]

pirate1802 wrote...

Essalor wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

Neither of the ending epilogues show any negative consequences honestly. It pisses me off too. But it being Bioware's preferred option never played into my mind when I chose synthesis. Bioware might well have told me refuse was the best and the starchild can rant about it all it wants I'll still choose synthesis.

Not if you have below 2800 EMS, no you don't! If you have above all endings are sugar-coated. You are a completionist, mate!

Lol, you can say that. I scan every planet and do every side mission almost out of habit, as much as I hate those fetch quests, I do those too. It doesn't feel right to me to have anything left behind before making the final push.

Yep the endings are sugar-coated. If it was me I'd have included some deactivated Geth lying around on Rannoch in destroy, show some reapers fighting among each other, or some people who are not happy with the changes in synthesis maybe.. and Shepard-catalyst putting down some offender with his/her reapers in control.

Destroy means not "deactivated", but dead Geth (and EDI as well). What was "deactivated" can be "reactivated", but we are unable to resurrect the Geth and EDI in case of Destroy most likely. And more importantly, noone will ever want to bring them back I suppose.

I believe the most spread issue in few months after the Synthesis will be a lot of calls to the clinics and hospitals with people saying "Doctor, my skin and eyes are glowing! Can you help me?!". After that... A lot of unknown...

I think that Catalist-Shepard really can put down some offenders, if the offenders really deserved that. I see no problem in that. But Paragon and Renegade variants of Shepard-Catalyst will use different methods of "putting down the offenders".

Modifié par Seival, 11 août 2012 - 01:14 .

[Seival]

@pirate1802

...By the way. Do you remember our discussion about an idea of post-ending DLC with LI as a protagonist? I think it's a really nice way to show short-term consequences of each ending. Maybe I should create a new topic about the idea?

[LiarasShield]

Pitznik wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

Well pitznik and pirate you guys probably supported the endings before extended even came out so you can't understand where I'm coming from but that is fine


And Whose to say I didn't pick refuse it is the only ending I like lol

I'd rather win, than lose, but to each his own.

Well If I have to win or lose I'd rather do it on my own terms then my enemies or the catalyst choices and I believe for freedom and that everyone in the universe has the right to make their own choices in this world or universe refuse is the best option out of extended for me

[Applepie_Svk]

LiarasShield wrote...



Well If I have to win or lose I'd rather do it on my own terms then my enemies or the catalyst choices and I believe for freedom and that everyone in the universe has the right to make their own choices in this world or universe refuse is the best option out of extended for me

It was always point of victory, a conqueror dicate a terms and not the supposed vanquisher. Well, but in ME3 it´s otherwise because we are not the one which winning and with Refuse option it´s just proven right.

Modifié par Applepie_Svk, 11 août 2012 - 02:24 .

[Seival]

LiarasShield wrote...

Pitznik wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

Well pitznik and pirate you guys probably supported the endings before extended even came out so you can't understand where I'm coming from but that is fine


And Whose to say I didn't pick refuse it is the only ending I like lol

I'd rather win, than lose, but to each his own.

Well If I have to win or lose I'd rather do it on my own terms then my enemies or the catalyst choices and I believe for freedom and that everyone in the universe has the right to make their own choices in this world or universe refuse is the best option out of extended for me

You can't lose on your own terms. Only victory or a draw are accomplished on your own terms.

[Pitznik]

LiarasShield wrote...

Well If I have to win or lose I'd rather do it on my own terms then my enemies or the catalyst choices and I believe for freedom and that everyone in the universe has the right to make their own choices in this world or universe refuse is the best option out of extended for me

I don't consider "being harvested, processed into organic goo, and made into a giant space metal cuttlefish" to be exactly my own terms. There is no freedom, as long as the Reapers are part of the picture.

[Seival]

By the way. I think, if someone wants victory in Shepard's and Shepard's only terms, then Control is the best way for such person. Most of other choices' "consumers" don't really care about Shepard's opinion much. They will choose their own way, and can easily repeat all possible mistakes, which led to creation of the original Catalyst long long ago.

Modifié par Seival, 11 août 2012 - 04:36 .

[Essalor]

Maybe after several DLC like Leviathan we'll finally have enough EMS to refuse and win without the Catalyst.

[Mazebook]

Essalor wrote...

Maybe after several DLC like Leviathan we'll finally have enough EMS to refuse and win without the Catalyst.

I hope not...that would be the biggest mistake bioware could do...I don´t think they are that stupid.

Modifié par maaaze, 11 août 2012 - 07:17 .

[PsyrenY]

Signed. Great job provoking so much discussion Bioware, you are still the kings of video game writing!

[Seival]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Signed. Great job provoking so much discussion Bioware, you are still the kings of video game writing!

+1