1214 réponses à ce sujet

[Dusen]

Going from all that we are given in game, I find it hard to believe that anyone here, if they were in Shepard's place and weren't metagaming, would be able to pick any of the choices. We are talking to the leader of the Reapers who has used trickery, indoctrination, backstabbing, genocide, lies, etc. to accomplish it's goals and yet it has now, at the brink of it's total victory, decided to let us win? I find that very hard to believe and would be very skeptical because it all seems so odd. . . I mean for all we know it could have been some sort of mass-indoctrination device or something even more sinister.

(I'd like to make it clear that this has nothing to do with IT besides the cursery remark involving indoctrination.)

[DirtyPhoenix]

Dusen wrote...

Going from all that we are given in game, I find it hard to believe that anyone here, if they were in Shepard's place and weren't metagaming, would be able to pick any of the choices. We are talking to the leader of the Reapers who has used trickery, indoctrination, backstabbing, genocide, lies, etc. to accomplish it's goals and yet it has now, at the brink of it's total victory, decided to let us win? I find that very hard to believe and would be very skeptical because it all seems so odd. . . I mean for all we know it could have been some sort of mass-indoctrination device or something even more sinister.

(I'd like to make it clear that this has nothing to do with IT besides the cursery remark involving indoctrination.)

Yes you are absolutely right. Its a storytelling failure to be sure. And this trust issue could have easily been solved by having someone neutral give you the option.
*sadface*

Modifié par pirate1802, 13 août 2012 - 03:16 .

[SeptimusMagistos]

Dusen wrote...

Going from all that we are given in game, I find it hard to believe that anyone here, if they were in Shepard's place and weren't metagaming, would be able to pick any of the choices. We are talking to the leader of the Reapers who has used trickery, indoctrination, backstabbing, genocide, lies, etc. to accomplish it's goals and yet it has now, at the brink of it's total victory, decided to let us win? I find that very hard to believe and would be very skeptical because it all seems so odd. . . I mean for all we know it could have been some sort of mass-indoctrination device or something even more sinister.

(I'd like to make it clear that this has nothing to do with IT besides the cursery remark involving indoctrination.)

Well, the alternative is Refuse, so we'd pretty much have to, wouldn't we?

[wizardryforever]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

Dusen wrote...

Going from all that we are given in game, I find it hard to believe that anyone here, if they were in Shepard's place and weren't metagaming, would be able to pick any of the choices. We are talking to the leader of the Reapers who has used trickery, indoctrination, backstabbing, genocide, lies, etc. to accomplish it's goals and yet it has now, at the brink of it's total victory, decided to let us win? I find that very hard to believe and would be very skeptical because it all seems so odd. . . I mean for all we know it could have been some sort of mass-indoctrination device or something even more sinister.

(I'd like to make it clear that this has nothing to do with IT besides the cursery remark involving indoctrination.)

Well, the alternative is Refuse, so we'd pretty much have to, wouldn't we?

Exactly.  If I was in Shepard's place, I would choose one of the options because I would know that it would be the only way to prevent the death of trillions.  It may involve some ruthless calculus and some risks, but there really is no alternative.  Refusing wouldn't even enter my mind.

[DirtyPhoenix]

wizardryforever wrote...

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

Dusen wrote...

Going from all that we are given in game, I find it hard to believe that anyone here, if they were in Shepard's place and weren't metagaming, would be able to pick any of the choices. We are talking to the leader of the Reapers who has used trickery, indoctrination, backstabbing, genocide, lies, etc. to accomplish it's goals and yet it has now, at the brink of it's total victory, decided to let us win? I find that very hard to believe and would be very skeptical because it all seems so odd. . . I mean for all we know it could have been some sort of mass-indoctrination device or something even more sinister.

(I'd like to make it clear that this has nothing to do with IT besides the cursery remark involving indoctrination.)

Well, the alternative is Refuse, so we'd pretty much have to, wouldn't we?

Exactly.  If I was in Shepard's place, I would choose one of the options because I would know that it would be the only way to prevent the death of trillions.  It may involve some ruthless calculus and some risks, but there really is no alternative.  Refusing wouldn't even enter my mind.

Yep. After you spent six months (was it?) building it, using up your every resource, you refuse to use it just because you don't like the way it fires? -__- Should have studied it better then.

Modifié par pirate1802, 13 août 2012 - 04:04 .

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Dusen wrote...

Going from all that we are given in game, I find it hard to believe that anyone here, if they were in Shepard's place and weren't metagaming, would be able to pick any of the choices. We are talking to the leader of the Reapers who has used trickery, indoctrination, backstabbing, genocide, lies, etc. to accomplish it's goals and yet it has now, at the brink of it's total victory, decided to let us win? I find that very hard to believe and would be very skeptical because it all seems so odd. . . I mean for all we know it could have been some sort of mass-indoctrination device or something even more sinister.

(I'd like to make it clear that this has nothing to do with IT besides the cursery remark involving indoctrination.)

I don't find it hard to believe at all.

I've gone down this road many times only to find the premise of "he's trying to trick you" full of leaps to conclusions, circular logic, assumptions, and outright ignorance of the facts.

It's porous.

[DirtyPhoenix]

Well if I was Shepard, this would be my line to thinking.

*Moves towards the tube*
What a minute.. this thing can read my mind, which is why it looks like that kid from Earth, to appear friendly. So it certainly knows what I wanted to do. If this thing is really trying to trick me, which option is it likely to rig?

So, no Shepard, wait a minute. THINK! It probably has rigged the tube to explode and kill you and do nothing else, since it knows you'll run for that large kill reapers button.

And which option is it least likely to rig? The option you're least likely to take? The option you didn't even know existed before coming up here? That's right.

Modifié par pirate1802, 13 août 2012 - 05:04 .

[Seival]

pirate1802 wrote...

Dusen wrote...

Going from all that we are given in game, I find it hard to believe that anyone here, if they were in Shepard's place and weren't metagaming, would be able to pick any of the choices. We are talking to the leader of the Reapers who has used trickery, indoctrination, backstabbing, genocide, lies, etc. to accomplish it's goals and yet it has now, at the brink of it's total victory, decided to let us win? I find that very hard to believe and would be very skeptical because it all seems so odd. . . I mean for all we know it could have been some sort of mass-indoctrination device or something even more sinister.

(I'd like to make it clear that this has nothing to do with IT besides the cursery remark involving indoctrination.)

Yes you are absolutely right. Its a storytelling failure to be sure. And this trust issue could have easily been solved by having someone neutral give you the option.
*sadface*

Someone neutral? Like EDI?
http://social.biowar.../index/13610561 

[DirtyPhoenix]

Yes that'd work. I was thinking ore on the lines of Victory, the VI of the bunker Javik was in, in Eden Prime.

[Seival]

pirate1802 wrote...

Yes that'd work. I was thinking ore on the lines of Victory, the VI of the bunker Javik was in, in Eden Prime.

Maybe I should make a suggestion based on that fan-fiction?

[DirtyPhoenix]

Seival wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

Yes that'd work. I was thinking ore on the lines of Victory, the VI of the bunker Javik was in, in Eden Prime.

Maybe I should make a suggestion based on that fan-fiction?

I've written something on that, just making the final corrections, but I'd very much like to hear your suggestion.

[Seival]

pirate1802 wrote...

Seival wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

Yes that'd work. I was thinking ore on the lines of Victory, the VI of the bunker Javik was in, in Eden Prime.

Maybe I should make a suggestion based on that fan-fiction?

I've written something on that, just making the final corrections, but I'd very much like to hear your suggestion.

Well, the basics for that suggestion is already in this pro-ending fan-fic: http://social.biowar.../index/13610561

All I need is describe it in more details

[Seival]

...By the way, it will be interesting to read your thoughts on the matter too.

[Seival]

wizardryforever wrote...

Exactly.  If I was in Shepard's place, I would choose one of the options because I would know that it would be the only way to prevent the death of trillions.  It may involve some ruthless calculus and some risks, but there really is no alternative. Refusing wouldn't even enter my mind.

+1

+2 for the underlined part

[LiarasShield]

Well I doubt you'll ever truely understand why some players truely do pick refuse while some will not understand why you pick any of the three choices

[LiarasShield]

Dusen wrote...

Going from all that we are given in game, I find it hard to believe that anyone here, if they were in Shepard's place and weren't metagaming, would be able to pick any of the choices. We are talking to the leader of the Reapers who has used trickery, indoctrination, backstabbing, genocide, lies, etc. to accomplish it's goals and yet it has now, at the brink of it's total victory, decided to let us win? I find that very hard to believe and would be very skeptical because it all seems so odd. . . I mean for all we know it could have been some sort of mass-indoctrination device or something even more sinister.

(I'd like to make it clear that this has nothing to do with IT besides the cursery remark involving indoctrination.)

Also another key tenet of why I wouldn't pick its choices

[Peranor]

LiarasShield wrote...

Well I doubt you'll ever truely understand why some players truely do pick refuse while some will not understand why you pick any of the three choices

Depending on how you look at it, one reason to pick refuse could be:


...I am among those who believe the ending [to ME3] could never be salvaged. The thematic kidnapping of the Ten Minutes was too blatant, too problematic, too dissociative. The game should've ended at "best seats in the house", and no investigation options would be enough to satisfy. That it didn't prompted me to reevaluate the entirety of the game - and I found it wanting. That damage is done. But until the EC was released, I couldn't let go, not fully, not until I'd made quite sure they didn't pull some miracle from their collective posteriors.
That they chose to retain that horrid divergence was expected. That I would still be less than satisfied with both the ending and the narrative as a whole was also expected. What that fourth option did - that ability to refuse not only on a textual level but a metatextual one - was to allow me to reject the game itself, within the game itself. It was an admission by the creators that, for some, their vision was unacceptable. It was a subtle form of humility, masked though it might be by the distorted, petulant exclamation by the Catalyst at my decision, and it allowed me to act with the finality I desired. I no longer wished to be a part of this story, so twisted and
I was allowed to draw a line. I took them up on their offer.[/b]

Modifié par anorling, 14 août 2012 - 02:02 .

[MegaSovereign]

anorling wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

Well I doubt you'll ever truely understand why some players truely do pick refuse while some will not understand why you pick any of the three choices

Depending on how you look at it, one reason to pick refuse could be:


...I am among those who believe the ending [to ME3] could never be salvaged. The thematic kidnapping of the Ten Minutes was too blatant, too problematic, too dissociative. The game should've ended at "best seats in the house", and no investigation options would be enough to satisfy. That it didn't prompted me to reevaluate the entirety of the game - and I found it wanting. That damage is done. But until the EC was released, I couldn't let go, not fully, not until I'd made quite sure they didn't pull some miracle from their collective posteriors.

That they chose to retain that horrid divergence was expected. That I would still be less than satisfied with both the ending and the narrative as a whole was also expected. What that fourth option did - that ability to refuse not only on a textual level but a metatextual one - was to allow me to reject the game itself, within the game itself. It was an admission by the creators that, for some, their vision was unacceptable. It was a subtle form of humility, masked though it might be by the distorted, petulant exclamation by the Catalyst at my decision, and it allowed me to act with the finality I desired. I no longer wished to be a part of this story, so twisted and

I was allowed to draw a line. I took them up on their offer.

I read your post twice, no,  three times. The most polite response I can come up with is "this post screams hyperbole."

The fact that you took the ending as a personal insult says it all. Ignoring that, I disagree that the final 10 minutes were a "thematic kidnapping" of the story. In fact, the endings echoed multiple themes portrayed throughout not only ME3 but the entire trilogy. Do I think the ending is perfect? No. But I'm tired of reading people's exaggerated rants and baseless accusations about what's wrong with the endings. I mean seriosuly there is a difference between not liking something and claiming that it is objectively repulsive.

[Peranor]

MegaSovereign wrote...

anorling wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

Well I doubt you'll ever truely understand why some players truely do pick refuse while some will not understand why you pick any of the three choices

Depending on how you look at it, one reason to pick refuse could be:


...I am among those who believe the ending [to ME3] could never be salvaged. The thematic kidnapping of the Ten Minutes was too blatant, too problematic, too dissociative. The game should've ended at "best seats in the house", and no investigation options would be enough to satisfy. That it didn't prompted me to reevaluate the entirety of the game - and I found it wanting. That damage is done. But until the EC was released, I couldn't let go, not fully, not until I'd made quite sure they didn't pull some miracle from their collective posteriors.

That they chose to retain that horrid divergence was expected. That I would still be less than satisfied with both the ending and the narrative as a whole was also expected. What that fourth option did - that ability to refuse not only on a textual level but a metatextual one - was to allow me to reject the game itself, within the game itself. It was an admission by the creators that, for some, their vision was unacceptable. It was a subtle form of humility, masked though it might be by the distorted, petulant exclamation by the Catalyst at my decision, and it allowed me to act with the finality I desired. I no longer wished to be a part of this story, so twisted and 

I was allowed to draw a line. I took them up on their offer.

I read your post twice, no,  three times. The most polite response I can come up with is "this post screams hyperbole."

The fact that you took the ending as a personal insult says it all. Ignoring that, I disagree that the final 10 minutes were a "thematic kidnapping" of the story. In fact, the endings echoed multiple themes portrayed throughout not only ME3 but the entire trilogy. Do I think the ending is perfect? No. But I'm tired of reading people's exaggerated rants and baseless accusations about what's wrong with the endings. I mean seriosuly there is a difference between not liking something and claiming that it is objectively repulsive.

Personal insult? I've never said that. I know some people see the refuse ending as a middle finger from Bioware, but I don't.

My post was merely intended to present another way to look at the refuse/reject ending instead of just seeing it as a middle fingers from Bioware.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

MegaSovereign wrote...

In fact, the endings echoed multiple themes portrayed throughout not only ME3 but the entire trilogy.

Q.
F.
T.

To be sure, I'd say that many of the themes have changed. In ME3, you have to sacrifice, compromise, and take risks.

It actually reminds me of this exchange before Grunt's rite-of-passage:
Grunt: "What will happen?"
Shaman: "Who knows! You must adapt. You must thrive, no matter the situation. Any true krogan would."

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 14 août 2012 - 02:26 .

[DirtyPhoenix]

LiarasShield wrote...

Dusen wrote...

Going from all that we are given in game, I find it hard to believe that anyone here, if they were in Shepard's place and weren't metagaming, would be able to pick any of the choices. We are talking to the leader of the Reapers who has used trickery, indoctrination, backstabbing, genocide, lies, etc. to accomplish it's goals and yet it has now, at the brink of it's total victory, decided to let us win? I find that very hard to believe and would be very skeptical because it all seems so odd. . . I mean for all we know it could have been some sort of mass-indoctrination device or something even more sinister.

(I'd like to make it clear that this has nothing to do with IT besides the cursery remark involving indoctrination.)

Also another key tenet of why I wouldn't pick its choices

But but but.. On one side you have a catalyst who may be lying. On the other hand you have certain death. I'd take my chances. And apparantly, my gamble paid off.

HYR 2.0 wrote...
Grunt: "What will happen?"
Shaman: "Who knows! You must adapt. You must thrive, no matter the situation. Any true krogan would."

QFT x 2

[MegaSovereign]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

In fact, the endings echoed multiple themes portrayed throughout not only ME3 but the entire trilogy.

Q.
F.
T.

To be sure, I'd say that many of the themes have changed. In ME3, you have to sacrifice, compromise, and take risks.

It actually reminds me of this exchange before Grunt's rite-of-passage:
Grunt: "What will happen?"
Shaman: "Who knows! You must adapt. You must thrive, no matter the situation. Any true krogan would."

Ruthless Calculus of War

Victory at any Cost

Organic/Synthetic relations

Pragmatism vs Principle.

Chaos and Order

Change vs tradition

War is Hell

Chalk tons of religious references


-------------

Just to name a few.

The endings were morally gray. They made me uncomfortable, but in a good way. Before I'd make decisions depending on whether my character was paragon/renegade. But for the first time, I've actually had to think before I made my ending choice.

Introducing a perfect ending scenario would have rendered the choices pointless.

Modifié par MegaSovereign, 14 août 2012 - 02:51 .

[Seival]

LiarasShield wrote...

Well I doubt you'll ever truely understand why some players truely do pick refuse while some will not understand why you pick any of the three choices

Yes, I can't understand why some people choose Refusal. And I never will understand that. This choice is too alien for me. My Shepard's goal was to stop the Reapers, not to allow them to continue the harvests.

[Oransel]

Bioware did bad job and all of the endings are horrible, even with EC.

[Mazebook]

Oransel wrote...

Bioware did bad job and all of the endings are horrible, even with EC.

Also you are making terrible waffels...and your cookies taste like garbage...

Seriously nobody asked your opinion. You know hat support means?

Modifié par maaaze, 14 août 2012 - 11:19 .