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You have hope. More than you think... [The ULTIMATE endings support thread]


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#1001
DirtyPhoenix

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LiarasShield wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

I knew this would draw you in. ;D


Shepard took to much damage from the destroy ending wether you count the synthetic implants or not he or she took way too much damage for it to be believeable


That was meant for Taboo, but I'd give you this. There is no way i can think of, that Shepard can fall through to Earth. He has to be on the Citadel. But the rubble looks very much like from London. One guy at the IT thread even did a detailed check. The stone slabs around Shepard seem to be exactly the ones used in previus scenes from London. I remember I used to consider this a pretty strong IT evidence back then. :unsure:

#1002
Taboo

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LiarasShield wrote...

um no dear friend hackett believes they can repair the mass relays it is much different then saying we can and it isn't shown on any of the slides


You make an inference ma'am. He says it can be done.

You are shown people getting out on Tuchanka and Rannoch.

They had to rebuild the relays. It would take too long otherwise.

Not only that, but your LI knows you aren't dead. Even Miranda does.

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 22 août 2012 - 01:41 .


#1003
Ieldra

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@LiarasShield:
I won't let the cutscene designers' love of explosions and re-use of resources spoil the narrative aspect. We have the breath scene, we have the post-Destroy romance slides, we have the memorial wall scene. Again, to me it is totally clear what this says. Even in the original endings, I've never had the slightest bit of doubt that Shepard survives high-EMS Destroy. As for how exactly, that's for our imagination to determine.

Also, in the face of something like the Lazarus Project, where Shepard was brain-dead and came back, this problem is strictly small fry.

#1004
LiarasShield

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Ieldra2 wrote...

@LiarasShield:
I won't let the cutscene designers' love of explosions and re-use of resources spoil the narrative aspect. We have the breath scene, we have the post-Destroy romance slides, we have the memorial wall scene. Again, to me it is totally clear what this says. Even in the original endings, I've never had the slightest bit of doubt that Shepard survives high-EMS Destroy. As for how exactly, that's for our imagination to determine.

Also, in the face of something like the Lazarus Project, where Shepard was brain-dead and came back, this problem is strictly small fry.


How destroy happend to me makes it seem like no their is no way shepard could've survived to me it comes off as hopeless delusional stuff to believe that he or she could've survived earths reentry and the explosion to shepards body I'm sorry to me he or she did not survive and its a damn shame

#1005
Seival

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Ieldra2 wrote...

Seival wrote...
...Also I strongly believe that nothing in the end could be done without the original Catalyst's approval. So we didn't "beat the Reapers", but convinced the original Catalyst it was wrong with its "Cycles-Solution".

Convinced....or reprogrammed? What's the role of the Crucible? Or is it just Shepard's being there that made the Catalyst accept that its solutions won't work anymore?

Also, what's the "original Catalyst"? Do you mean the entity originally created, before it expanded its consciousness by adding Reapers to itself?


I think you can't reprogram anything (especially alien and super-advanced AI) using a battery. Crucible is just a source of power, and it turns the Citadel and all Mass Relays into a "smart-bombs". But only the Catalyst can trigger explosion, and allow it to have a proper effect... This is how I see it. So, I believe that:

 - Control changes only the Catalyst on atomic level.
 - Synthesis changes everyone on atomic level.
 - Destroy damages some particular synthetic elements on atomic level.

...And making a choice is actually showing the original Catalyst which explosion it must trigger (or not trigger them at all in case of Refusal).

Modifié par Seival, 22 août 2012 - 09:08 .


#1006
Seival

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...I don't really understand why some people still think that Crucible "reprogrammed" the Catalyst.

#1007
M Hedonist

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Seival wrote...

...I don't really understand why some people still think that Crucible "reprogrammed" the Catalyst.

"The crucible changed me." - Catalyst
You're welcome :lol:

#1008
Seival

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Sauruz wrote...

Seival wrote...

...I don't really understand why some people still think that Crucible "reprogrammed" the Catalyst.

"The crucible changed me." - Catalyst
You're welcome :lol:


I think the meaning of the phrase was not "the crucible reprogrammed me, and I obey all your orders". The meaning was explained in the next phrase about "creating new possibilities". I believe the original Catalist had situation completely under its control. And it helped Shepard willingly.

#1009
Rick Lewis

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Just dropping by to thank whomever for making this useful hub thread. You have my thanks! Also DIRECT CONTROL IS NECESSARY

#1010
Pitznik

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Seival wrote...

...I don't really understand why some people still think that Crucible "reprogrammed" the Catalyst.

It had to. In other case Catalyst wouldn't accept Destroy or Control as viable solutions.

#1011
Seival

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Pitznik wrote...

Seival wrote...

...I don't really understand why some people still think that Crucible "reprogrammed" the Catalyst.

It had to. In other case Catalyst wouldn't accept Destroy or Control as viable solutions.


Shepard can easily sacrifice herself for a greater good, so why the Catalyst can't? AIs don't even have a fear. They just do what they think will be preferrable.

...Well, and you can't reprogram anything using a giant battery.

#1012
Pitznik

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Seival wrote...

Pitznik wrote...

Seival wrote...

...I don't really understand why some people still think that Crucible "reprogrammed" the Catalyst.

It had to. In other case Catalyst wouldn't accept Destroy or Control as viable solutions.


Shepard can easily sacrifice herself for a greater good, so why the Catalyst can't? AIs don't even have a fear. They just do what they think will be preferrable.

...Well, and you can't reprogram anything using a giant battery.

Of course he can, as long as the presented outcome is superior to his own solution. But it isn't. Only synthesis is.

#1013
M Hedonist

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Seival wrote...

Pitznik wrote...

Seival wrote...

...I don't really understand why some people still think that Crucible "reprogrammed" the Catalyst.

It had to. In other case Catalyst wouldn't accept Destroy or Control as viable solutions.


Shepard can easily sacrifice herself for a greater good, so why the Catalyst can't? AIs don't even have a fear. They just do what they think will be preferrable.

...Well, and you can't reprogram anything using a giant battery.

So, how is Destroy preferable to the Catalyst's current solution? It just destroys all current synthetics. It is no long-term solution. The Catalyst even acknowledges that.
Hell, if the Catalyst wanted, he could've just destroyed all synthetics at one point to get the same result. No space magic needed.

#1014
MegaSovereign

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Sauruz wrote...

Seival wrote...

Pitznik wrote...

Seival wrote...

...I don't really understand why some people still think that Crucible "reprogrammed" the Catalyst.

It had to. In other case Catalyst wouldn't accept Destroy or Control as viable solutions.


Shepard can easily sacrifice herself for a greater good, so why the Catalyst can't? AIs don't even have a fear. They just do what they think will be preferrable.

...Well, and you can't reprogram anything using a giant battery.

So, how is Destroy preferable to the Catalyst's current solution? It just destroys all current synthetics. It is no long-term solution. The Catalyst even acknowledges that.
Hell, if the Catalyst wanted, he could've just destroyed all synthetics at one point to get the same result. No space magic needed.


Because now the Catalyst knows that organics can simply build the Crucible again if conflict occurs with new synthetics.

Modifié par MegaSovereign, 22 août 2012 - 10:56 .


#1015
Pitznik

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MegaSovereign wrote...

Sauruz wrote...

Seival wrote...

Pitznik wrote...

Seival wrote...

...I don't really understand why some people still think that Crucible "reprogrammed" the Catalyst.

It had to. In other case Catalyst wouldn't accept Destroy or Control as viable solutions.


Shepard can easily sacrifice herself for a greater good, so why the Catalyst can't? AIs don't even have a fear. They just do what they think will be preferrable.

...Well, and you can't reprogram anything using a giant battery.

So, how is Destroy preferable to the Catalyst's current solution? It just destroys all current synthetics. It is no long-term solution. The Catalyst even acknowledges that.
Hell, if the Catalyst wanted, he could've just destroyed all synthetics at one point to get the same result. No space magic needed.


Because now the Catalyst knows that organics can simply build the Crucible again if conflict occurs with new synthetics.

He can destroy the synthetics anyway, using the reapers, and stay in control too. There are no benefits for the catalyst to replace harvesting with destroy.

Also, destroy destroys his precious preserved organics.

#1016
MegaSovereign

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Pitznik wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

Sauruz wrote...

Seival wrote...

Pitznik wrote...

Seival wrote...

...I don't really understand why some people still think that Crucible "reprogrammed" the Catalyst.

It had to. In other case Catalyst wouldn't accept Destroy or Control as viable solutions.


Shepard can easily sacrifice herself for a greater good, so why the Catalyst can't? AIs don't even have a fear. They just do what they think will be preferrable.

...Well, and you can't reprogram anything using a giant battery.

So, how is Destroy preferable to the Catalyst's current solution? It just destroys all current synthetics. It is no long-term solution. The Catalyst even acknowledges that.
Hell, if the Catalyst wanted, he could've just destroyed all synthetics at one point to get the same result. No space magic needed.


Because now the Catalyst knows that organics can simply build the Crucible again if conflict occurs with new synthetics.

He can destroy the synthetics anyway, using the reapers, and stay in control too. There are no benefits for the catalyst to replace harvesting with destroy.

Also, destroy destroys his precious preserved organics.


How would the Catalyst replenish his numbers without harvesting organics?

#1017
Pitznik

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MegaSovereign wrote...

Pitznik wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

Sauruz wrote...

Seival wrote...

Pitznik wrote...

Seival wrote...

...I don't really understand why some people still think that Crucible "reprogrammed" the Catalyst.

It had to. In other case Catalyst wouldn't accept Destroy or Control as viable solutions.


Shepard can easily sacrifice herself for a greater good, so why the Catalyst can't? AIs don't even have a fear. They just do what they think will be preferrable.

...Well, and you can't reprogram anything using a giant battery.

So, how is Destroy preferable to the Catalyst's current solution? It just destroys all current synthetics. It is no long-term solution. The Catalyst even acknowledges that.
Hell, if the Catalyst wanted, he could've just destroyed all synthetics at one point to get the same result. No space magic needed.


Because now the Catalyst knows that organics can simply build the Crucible again if conflict occurs with new synthetics.

He can destroy the synthetics anyway, using the reapers, and stay in control too. There are no benefits for the catalyst to replace harvesting with destroy.

Also, destroy destroys his precious preserved organics.


How would the Catalyst replenish his numbers without harvesting organics?

Assuming he would receive casualties he still has the option to revert to harvesting organics. He is still in control without destroy.

#1018
Hudathan

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pirate1802 wrote...

Oh yes, the EC still leaves large gaps in places like, as you said, the trust issue. Its the biggest issue, no 10 minute conversation can convince you that the reaper-king's words are as true as they come. I agree fully there. Better just remove the kid and replace it with something neutral, that'll take care of the trust problem.

I was very interested in having a conversation regarding the exact motivation of the Reapers straight from the horse's mouth. The fact that I can't believe everything it says as well as be sure whether the Crucible would even fufill all three functions properly was definitely on my mind as I made my decision. It was a big part of why I chose Destroy. So it was an interesting conversation and it made the final decision more nuanced, I don't see how that's worse than a no-brainer ending since Mass Effect has always been about being uneasy.

Modifié par Hudathan, 23 août 2012 - 08:36 .


#1019
DirtyPhoenix

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here are my views:
I think the crucible didn't physically reprogrammed the catalyst, it made it reassess its priorities, as it said, it "changed the variables". The reapers were the catalyst's "imperfect" solution to its problem. Its ultimate goal was something similar to synthesis. But it was unable to achieve that, for whatever reasons. So, in the meantime he just harvested, which was its plan B.

It (the catalyst) has been seeing this superweapon time and again, for the last few cycles. Each time, the device is improved a little from the last them, and each time the reapers are able to stop the thing before its too late. Now, for the first time the thing is completed and is docked into its ass. It sees the inevitable, the writing on the wall. It realizes its old solutions (reapers) would no longer work. It says this much. Even if they stopped the crucible from firing, it was (for the first time ever) in a finished state. The next cycle may well build it again and reach this state. So, it sets out to find a new solution, which are the three ways in the crucible can be used.

Destroy: Initially it may look like total opposite to what the catalyst has been trying to achieve. But if the catalyst decides to destroy the crucible it achieves nothing the next cycle will just rebuild it. If it decides to play good boi and destroy all synthetics then that solution will be identical to destroy solution, except the reapers live, and the crucible is intact. The organics are unlikely to let them go because the reapers destroyed some synthetics, they will likely use the crucible. So, as far as the catalyst is considered, its either destroy now via the crucible, or destroy a few cycles later.

Destroy is similar to resetting the clock. Start fresh, reapers dead, synthetics dead, and organics in possession of plans for a superweapons that can destroy all synthetics if need arises.

Control: The status quo. You become the new catalyst, the old-catalyst hopes you would find a better solution, succeed where he failed.

Synthesis: self-explanatory. Similar to the catalyst's original goal all along, so he supports it whole-heartedly.

This is also the reason the catalyst seems pissed if Shepard refuses. It has been shown its old solution doesn't work, it is intent on finding a new one. But since Shepard refused, it has to go back to its old, inefficient solutions.

Also, I believe the real victory was achieved when you docked the crucible into the citadel. It made the catalyst realize its solution is failing and made it reassess the situation. The rest is just you choosing how the aftermath plays out.

#1020
Seival

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MegaSovereign wrote...

Pitznik wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

Sauruz wrote...

Seival wrote...

Pitznik wrote...

Seival wrote...

...I don't really understand why some people still think that Crucible "reprogrammed" the Catalyst.

It had to. In other case Catalyst wouldn't accept Destroy or Control as viable solutions.


Shepard can easily sacrifice herself for a greater good, so why the Catalyst can't? AIs don't even have a fear. They just do what they think will be preferrable.

...Well, and you can't reprogram anything using a giant battery.

So, how is Destroy preferable to the Catalyst's current solution? It just destroys all current synthetics. It is no long-term solution. The Catalyst even acknowledges that.
Hell, if the Catalyst wanted, he could've just destroyed all synthetics at one point to get the same result. No space magic needed.


Because now the Catalyst knows that organics can simply build the Crucible again if conflict occurs with new synthetics.

He can destroy the synthetics anyway, using the reapers, and stay in control too. There are no benefits for the catalyst to replace harvesting with destroy.

Also, destroy destroys his precious preserved organics.


How would the Catalyst replenish his numbers without harvesting organics?


It could ask people to give the dead of natural causes to it, instead of putting them into the ground. It could be something like a "rebirth ritual" instead of "funeral".

Modifié par Seival, 23 août 2012 - 11:13 .


#1021
DirtyPhoenix

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Dead people can't be turned into reapers I think.. I mean those dead before the reaperizing process. That's why they were kept alive in concentration camp-like facilities.

#1022
Seival

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pirate1802 wrote...

Dead people can't be turned into reapers I think.. I mean those dead before the reaperizing process. That's why they were kept alive in concentration camp-like facilities.


I think dead people can be turned into the Reapers or hasks, but only if it will be done soon after the death.

#1023
Oransel

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bad game is bad

#1024
Pitznik

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Oransel wrote...

bad game is bad

And good game is good. Flawed in few important ways, yes, but still good overall.

#1025
Oransel

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Pitznik wrote...

Oransel wrote...

bad game is bad

And good game is good. Flawed in few important ways, yes, but still good overall.


Yeah agree about ME2 on that part. ME3 is bad, though.