142 réponses à ce sujet

[3DandBeyond]

AlanC9 wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...
I am saying it isn't necessarily Prothean but people believe it is-if the Protheans built it it isn't suprising at all.  They could have built it before the reapers came since they were studying relay tech.  Why is it assumed they built it after the reapers arrived?

It is also possible the reapers built it just as they built the citadel.  I should have said the protheans didn't necessarily build the one on the citadel, but they could have built it before the reapers came.  They learned how to cut off the signal and were learning a lot of things.

So the Reapers built one end of the Conduit, but  had no way to use it themselves until the protheans built the other end?

Either the reapers or the protheans built it.  If the reapers built it that doesn't mean they built it as an end to the Ilos relay (conduit), but could have meant it for something else.  ME1 didn't have to explain that part of it and it couldn't because the reaper that might have "discussed" it was killed and so was Saren.  It was known to be a one way relay which may have surprised the prothean scientists that used it (they starved or just died on the citadel) having no way back to Ilos.

It's possible it was meant as the entry for some other thing-the protheans merely created a relay that could connect to it.  The reapers if they built it may have intended to use it for something else (certainly not as a conduit from Ilos).

But again no one that knew why it was made was left to discuss it at the end of ME1.  So it was upt to ME3 to explain that in order to fill the plot hole, but ME3 left a lot dangling. 

The end of a story is responsible for filling all plot holes.  That's in part what is wrong with ME3-it ignores things like that from ME1 and 2.  It doesn't explain if the kid is living on the citadel, then where is he in ME1?  Never a mention, nothing. 

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 06 août 2012 - 03:23 .

[Errant_Geth]

3DandBeyond wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...
I am saying it isn't necessarily Prothean but people believe it is-if the Protheans built it it isn't suprising at all.  They could have built it before the reapers came since they were studying relay tech.  Why is it assumed they built it after the reapers arrived?

It is also possible the reapers built it just as they built the citadel.  I should have said the protheans didn't necessarily build the one on the citadel, but they could have built it before the reapers came.  They learned how to cut off the signal and were learning a lot of things.

So the Reapers built one end of the Conduit, but  had no way to use it themselves until the protheans built the other end?

Either the reapers or the protheans built it.  If the reapers built it that doesn't mean they built it as an end to the Ilos relay (conduit), but could have meant it for something else.  ME1 didn't have to explain that part of it and it couldn't because the reaper that might have "discussed" it was killed and so was Saren.  It was known to be a one way relay which may have surprised the prothean scientists that used it (they starved apparently on the citadel) having no way back to Ilos.

It's possible it was meant as the entry for some other thing-the protheans merely created a relay that could connect to it.  The reapers if they built it may have intended to use it for something else (certainly not as a conduit from Ilos).

But again no one that knew why it was made was left to discuss it at the end of ME1.  So it was upt to ME3 to explain that in order to fill the plot hole, but ME3 left a lot dangling. 

Perhaps it was a receiving relay that was built there when the Protheans began working on creating their own. Maybe they only understood the science of the "destination relay" at that stage. It exits directly at the base of the Presidium Tower, probably because they had multiple teams working on different worlds aross the galaxy attempting to link their own relays into it, and the prestigious moment when one of the teams succeeded would be observed directly by the Prothean "Council."

Then the surprise attack occurred, and all those other relay projects were wiped out, except for the Ilos team, who completed their work on the "transmission relay" after the Reapers retreated back into Dark Space.

[MegaSovereign]

Shepard Cmdr wrote...

Slipzman wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

Lalalalalal ME1 doesn't have plotholes its the perfect game lalalalalalalalalala

Claiming that the conduit in the citadel is a plot hole does not make sense, It was built there before the reapers arrived.

just ignore him, he has been posting on every thread that has been about the endings arguing that they were good.

Oh man you've exposed me!

What does the ME3 endings have to do with the OP?

[phagus]

3DandBeyond wrote...

phagus wrote...

If the Citadel monument is Prothean then why wasn't it destroyed when the Reapers took the Citadel during the previous cycle? Like all the Prothean and earlier monuments that were presumably built, or would the Reapers leave the present Krogan monument untouched for the next cycle to find?

If it is Reaper built then the only explanations I can think of are they used it like the London conduit to dump bodies on the Presidium or perhaps its a kind of Reaper Husk transport service which means there must be a network of these smaller relays across the galaxy. Neither of which explain why it's function was hidden. If it was a Reaper back door then that makes even less sense within the plot of ME1.

Or a simpler explanation its a plothole..

Since it is a relay it's destruction would also destroy the Citadel which perhaps they didn't want to have happen because that would take time to rebuild and not everything that was prothean made was destroyed---like the ruins on Mars and all those beacons everywhere.  They weren't buried nor were all those other prothean things left laying around. 

If the mini relay was reaper built, it's not the fault of ME1 that the meaning of it was never explained when reapers all actually showed up in ME3-that's ME3's failure.  How would anyone in ME1 ever find out why they built it since the only reaper encountered was destroyed?  But the talkative kid never has anything to say about events of ME1 or 2.

Except that the Reapers wouldn't know it was anything but a monument as it's function is hidden. Even if they did they created the mass relays, are you saying they cannot dismantle an inferior Prothean one without blowing it up?

You mean the buried Prothean base on Mars and the buried beacons? Would they have survived if they weren't underground and hidden? Would the beacon on Thessia have survived if it wasn't concealed within a statue on a world of primitive Asari? 

The Reapers do seem to lose quite a few IQ points from ME1-ME2-ME3, with all that tech left all over the galaxy and the Catalyst...

In conclusion the simplest reason is a failure in storytelling. I think that BW didn't plan the story arc for the trilogy but made it up as they went along leaving some plotholes along the way. Sad but true IMO.

[3DandBeyond]

Errant_Geth wrote...

Perhaps it was a receiving relay that was built there when the Protheans began working on creating their own. Maybe they only understood the science of the "destination relay" at that stage. It exits directly at the base of the Presidium Tower, probably because they had multiple teams working on different worlds aross the galaxy attempting to link their own relays into it, and the prestigious moment when one of the teams succeeded would be observed directly by the Prothean "Council."

Then the surprise attack occurred, and all those other relay projects were wiped out, except for the Ilos team, who completed their work on the "transmission relay" after the Reapers retreated back into Dark Space.

Exactly.  It isn't that big of a mystery really-either the protheans built it before the reapers came as one prototype and then realized that it could be used to get to the citadel to stop the signal by connecting another relay to it. 

Or the reapers created it for some unknown reason (that would have best been explained when reapers actually were around say in ME3) and the protheans built a prototype that linked to it from Ilos.

[Sajuro]

phagus wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

phagus wrote...

If the Citadel monument is Prothean then why wasn't it destroyed when the Reapers took the Citadel during the previous cycle? Like all the Prothean and earlier monuments that were presumably built, or would the Reapers leave the present Krogan monument untouched for the next cycle to find?

If it is Reaper built then the only explanations I can think of are they used it like the London conduit to dump bodies on the Presidium or perhaps its a kind of Reaper Husk transport service which means there must be a network of these smaller relays across the galaxy. Neither of which explain why it's function was hidden. If it was a Reaper back door then that makes even less sense within the plot of ME1.

Or a simpler explanation its a plothole..

Since it is a relay it's destruction would also destroy the Citadel which perhaps they didn't want to have happen because that would take time to rebuild and not everything that was prothean made was destroyed---like the ruins on Mars and all those beacons everywhere.  They weren't buried nor were all those other prothean things left laying around. 

If the mini relay was reaper built, it's not the fault of ME1 that the meaning of it was never explained when reapers all actually showed up in ME3-that's ME3's failure.  How would anyone in ME1 ever find out why they built it since the only reaper encountered was destroyed?  But the talkative kid never has anything to say about events of ME1 or 2.

Except that the Reapers wouldn't know it was anything but a monument as it's function is hidden. Even if they did they created the mass relays, are you saying they cannot dismantle an inferior Prothean one without blowing it up?

You mean the buried Prothean base on Mars and the buried beacons? Would they have survived if they weren't underground and hidden? Would the beacon on Thessia have survived if it wasn't concealed within a statue on a world of primitive Asari? 

The Reapers do seem to lose quite a few IQ points from ME1-ME2-ME3, with all that tech left all over the galaxy and the Catalyst...

In conclusion the simplest reason is a failure in storytelling. I think that BW didn't plan the story arc for the trilogy but made it up as they went along leaving some plotholes along the way. Sad but true IMO.

you seem to forget the metric ****load of prothean data discs in ME1 hidden in pyramids on planets and that data cache chilling in the middle of a field.

[Errant_Geth]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Exactly.  It isn't that big of a mystery really-either the protheans built it before the reapers came as one prototype and then realized that it could be used to get to the citadel to stop the signal by connecting another relay to it. 

Or the reapers created it for some unknown reason (that would have best been explained when reapers actually were around say in ME3) and the protheans built a prototype that linked to it from Ilos.

It would also explain why Ilos remained hidden from the Reapers as revealed by Vigil in ME1.

They might have been the only team working still at the time of the attack, and at the last minute some nameless Prothean erased all data on Ilos from the Citadel archives (like that goofy plot line from Attack of the Clones.)

[3DandBeyond]

phagus wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

phagus wrote...

If the Citadel monument is Prothean then why wasn't it destroyed when the Reapers took the Citadel during the previous cycle? Like all the Prothean and earlier monuments that were presumably built, or would the Reapers leave the present Krogan monument untouched for the next cycle to find?

If it is Reaper built then the only explanations I can think of are they used it like the London conduit to dump bodies on the Presidium or perhaps its a kind of Reaper Husk transport service which means there must be a network of these smaller relays across the galaxy. Neither of which explain why it's function was hidden. If it was a Reaper back door then that makes even less sense within the plot of ME1.

Or a simpler explanation its a plothole..

Since it is a relay it's destruction would also destroy the Citadel which perhaps they didn't want to have happen because that would take time to rebuild and not everything that was prothean made was destroyed---like the ruins on Mars and all those beacons everywhere.  They weren't buried nor were all those other prothean things left laying around. 

If the mini relay was reaper built, it's not the fault of ME1 that the meaning of it was never explained when reapers all actually showed up in ME3-that's ME3's failure.  How would anyone in ME1 ever find out why they built it since the only reaper encountered was destroyed?  But the talkative kid never has anything to say about events of ME1 or 2.

Except that the Reapers wouldn't know it was anything but a monument as it's function is hidden. Even if they did they created the mass relays, are you saying they cannot dismantle an inferior Prothean one without blowing it up?

You mean the buried Prothean base on Mars and the buried beacons? Would they have survived if they weren't underground and hidden? Would the beacon on Thessia have survived if it wasn't concealed within a statue on a world of primitive Asari? 

The Reapers do seem to lose quite a few IQ points from ME1-ME2-ME3, with all that tech left all over the galaxy and the Catalyst...

In conclusion the simplest reason is a failure in storytelling. I think that BW didn't plan the story arc for the trilogy but made it up as they went along leaving some plotholes along the way. Sad but true IMO.

We don't know if its function is hidden-if so, then that would explain why the reapers didn't remove it.  Because it is small, they may have overlooked it even.  If they left it and it was Prothean it makes as much sense as all the other stuff the protheans made that was left lying around. 

Those ruins are only buried because the events took place like 50k years ago.  Civilizations get buried.  Those things were likely on the surface.

I will still say-any plothole left over from ME1 and 2 that couldn't be filled in them, should have been filled in ME3. 

[shepdog77]

Christ people. Plot hole this, plot hole that... Just shut up already! Both sides!

Maybe I'm weird, but plot holes, even big ones, don't seem to bother me. Hell, I grew up watching Dragon Ball Z, that whole series is just one giant plot hole, but I still love it.

[3DandBeyond]

shepdog77 wrote...

Christ people. Plot hole this, plot hole that... Just shut up already! Both sides!

Maybe I'm weird, but plot holes, even big ones, don't seem to bother me. Hell, I grew up watching Dragon Ball Z, that whole series is just one giant plot hole, but I still love it.

Have you ever heard of not saying just any old thing that comes to mind before.  No one forced you to read and yet you did.

And no one here was even arguing until you showed up.

[Anvos]

I want to say this is nitpicking.

Honestly simple explaination, reapers want the next cycle to believe the previous cycle was the creators of the relays and citadel, thus they leave little bits behind and an inanimate statue of a relay that the keepers don't tag as affecting the citadel would likely draw little reason to destroy. Or there is always the possibility that the protheans had a couple small ships stowed away on Ilos.

[sistersafetypin]

3DandBeyond wrote...

The citadel is a mass relay hub-a mass relay itself. The protheans built a miniature relay on Ilos not on the citadel. The relay on Ilos connected to the Citadel and it was a prototype they were using to figure out relay tech. The receiving relay is the piece of "relay art" that is on the Citadel.  The reapers built the one on the citadel, not the protheans. 

Either there are a lot of stupid people that didn't pay attention during ME1, or simply a lot of PS3 players with an inability to read.

The Protheans didn't build the relay on the Citadel. They built the conduit, so they could hack the keepers to keep the Reapers from using their secret back door. That's what the whole ending of ME1 is about, stopping Saren and Soveriegn from figuring out how to override what the Protheans did..

This isn't a plothole, there's nothing to figure out. It's explained in the game

Modifié par sistersafetypin, 06 août 2012 - 04:07 .

[shepdog77]

3DandBeyond wrote...

shepdog77 wrote...

Christ people. Plot hole this, plot hole that... Just shut up already! Both sides!

Maybe I'm weird, but plot holes, even big ones, don't seem to bother me. Hell, I grew up watching Dragon Ball Z, that whole series is just one giant plot hole, but I still love it.

Have you ever heard of not saying just any old thing that comes to mind before.  No one forced you to read and yet you did.

And no one here was even arguing until you showed up.

Ummm Maybe you should read all the posts.  Multiple people are bickering about plot holes, including you.

Also, this is an internet forum, I'll say whatever I damn well feel like saying.

Modifié par shepdog77, 06 août 2012 - 04:09 .

[jmaster11]

Vigil the prothean AI from ME1 stated that the remaining scientists traveled back to the citadel after the reapers left and installed the conduit

[sistersafetypin]

jmaster11 wrote...

Vigil the prothean AI from ME1 stated that the remaining scientists traveled back to the citadel after the reapers left and installed the conduit

The Conduit was on Ilos.  You used the conduit to get to the Citadel, but there is no Conduit on the Citadel. There is a Mass Relay that was thought to be little more than a statue.

[F4H bandicoot]

I always just assumed the mini citadel one was built by them prior to the invasion, and then once it happened, Ilos just linked it up. The reapers arn't going to see emissions or whatnot and anything released will be masked nybthe big output of the citadel relay.

[Doctoglethorpe]

Built before reaper suprise. 

I've always had the nagging question though (one of those lore busters you have to let go for the sake of immersion) why didn't the Reapers get rid of it when they were cleaning out the CItadel and preparing it for the next cycle?  Seems like a pretty obvious thing to do but it just slipped by their supposedly inconcievably advanced minds.  *shrug*

Its similar to the question of why Feros was left the way it was.  Its said in lore all worlds are completely stripped of evidense of past civilization.  Fero's hasn't even suffered from arcetecual collapse, like it wasn't even attacked at all.  Whats up with that? 

Excuse my offtopical vacation.  Just thinking outloud I guess. 

Modifié par Doctor Moustache, 06 août 2012 - 08:30 .

[phagus]

Sajuro wrote...

phagus wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

phagus wrote...

If the Citadel monument is Prothean then why wasn't it destroyed when the Reapers took the Citadel during the previous cycle? Like all the Prothean and earlier monuments that were presumably built, or would the Reapers leave the present Krogan monument untouched for the next cycle to find?

If it is Reaper built then the only explanations I can think of are they used it like the London conduit to dump bodies on the Presidium or perhaps its a kind of Reaper Husk transport service which means there must be a network of these smaller relays across the galaxy. Neither of which explain why it's function was hidden. If it was a Reaper back door then that makes even less sense within the plot of ME1.

Or a simpler explanation its a plothole..

Since it is a relay it's destruction would also destroy the Citadel which perhaps they didn't want to have happen because that would take time to rebuild and not everything that was prothean made was destroyed---like the ruins on Mars and all those beacons everywhere. They weren't buried nor were all those other prothean things left laying around.

If the mini relay was reaper built, it's not the fault of ME1 that the meaning of it was never explained when reapers all actually showed up in ME3-that's ME3's failure. How would anyone in ME1 ever find out why they built it since the only reaper encountered was destroyed? But the talkative kid never has anything to say about events of ME1 or 2.

Except that the Reapers wouldn't know it was anything but a monument as it's function is hidden. Even if they did they created the mass relays, are you saying they cannot dismantle an inferior Prothean one without blowing it up?

You mean the buried Prothean base on Mars and the buried beacons? Would they have survived if they weren't underground and hidden? Would the beacon on Thessia have survived if it wasn't concealed within a statue on a world of primitive Asari?

The Reapers do seem to lose quite a few IQ points from ME1-ME2-ME3, with all that tech left all over the galaxy and the Catalyst...

In conclusion the simplest reason is a failure in storytelling. I think that BW didn't plan the story arc for the trilogy but made it up as they went along leaving some plotholes along the way. Sad but true IMO.

you seem to forget the metric ****load of prothean data discs in ME1 hidden in pyramids on planets and that data cache chilling in the middle of a field.

Indeed and that is the problem. There is so much advanced Prothean tech left all over the galaxy (pyramids,spheres,beacons,Crucible plans in bases, Javik and his Particle Rifle,bits of a Reaper killing canon etc) and even a dead Reaper and now Leviathan, that it makes the Reapers look incompetent. They have had 50k years to clear up.

If the tech wasn't buried and hidden intentionally (which would give the Reapers some excuse as to why the tech wasn't found and destroyed) then it was just left lying around and buried by natural processes. The Reapers have gone from incredibly advanced,intelligent unknowable monsters to utter morons over the course of 3 games.

Modifié par phagus, 06 août 2012 - 04:05 .

[NM_Che56]

...and here's the conduit

[3DandBeyond]

shepdog77 wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

shepdog77 wrote...

Christ people. Plot hole this, plot hole that... Just shut up already! Both sides!

Maybe I'm weird, but plot holes, even big ones, don't seem to bother me. Hell, I grew up watching Dragon Ball Z, that whole series is just one giant plot hole, but I still love it.

Have you ever heard of not saying just any old thing that comes to mind before.  No one forced you to read and yet you did.

And no one here was even arguing until you showed up.

Ummm Maybe you should read all the posts.  Multiple people are bickering about plot holes, including you.

Also, this is an internet forum, I'll say whatever I damn well feel like saying.

Actually you are casting your own interpretation over things I and others have not been doing.  Having a discussion is not bickering and I was not bickering at all, no matter what you are determined to think.  Wallow in your own cynicism if you like and you clearly do feel like you can say anything you wish to say.  I never told you to shut up-you told everyone here to shut up, so maybe your own logic would best apply to you.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 06 août 2012 - 04:21 .

[3DandBeyond]

phagus wrote...


Indeed and that is the problem. There is so much advanced Prothean tech left all over the galaxy (pyramids,spheres,beacons,Crucible plans in bases, Javik and his Particle Rifle,bits of a Reaper killing canon etc) and even a dead Reaper and now Leviathan, that it makes the Reapers look incompetent. They have had 50k years to clear up.

If the tech wasn't buried and hidden intentionally (which would give the Reapers some excuse as to why the tech wasn't found and destroyed) then it was just left lying around and buried by natural processes. The Reapers have gone from incredibly advanced,intelligent unknowable monsters to utter morons over the course of 3 games.

This is a main part of the problem.  We get this idea that supposedly they rip up the very Earth and take it with them when they leave, but they clearly don't.

With the conduit at London at the end, it's not even clear how that is so much more efficient than the reapers-aren't individual reapers harvesting people?  So what is the conduit for?  And where are the millions of bodies that should be on it if it's that efficient?

Stuff should be tied up (things that matter) at the end.  Little things can be forgotten, but if you start again talking about the reapers taking all resources and only leaving their tech behind to have organics follow a certain path, then it opens up any problem from before.

[Conniving_Eagle]

AlanC9 wrote...

I guess they had already built it, and somehow the Reapers didn't notice the thing.

They can't exactly fit inside the Presidium.

[SNascimento]

Probably this enters is the "reapers are idiots" category.

[flanny]

HelixSpiral wrote...

Vigil said that Ilos was a project to replicate mass relay technology. They had built the prototypes and had to place the other end somewhere, so it apparently went to the Citadel. This was BEFORE the Reapers arrived.

this, it was top secret so no records were kept on the Citadel or that the monument was actually a functioning relay, people seem to think the reapers are all knowing but they usually just get all the info they need when the take the Citadel. Not sure how this is considered a plot hole, Vigil explained it all if you asked him

[3DandBeyond]

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

I guess they had already built it, and somehow the Reapers didn't notice the thing.

They can't exactly fit inside the Presidium.

Maybe baby reapers that were based on a past sentient race of Guppies could get in there.