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[robertthebard]

phagus wrote...

robertthebard wrote...
Just a random thought that occurred to me just now, but we're overthinking this.  Prothean tech survived because the Reapers intended for it to survive.  Well, more accurately, they didn't overlook it, they left it alone on purpose.  They don't want us to know about them until it's too late, but they need us to find and use tech from the last cycle, in order to perpetuate the cycles.  It's better to have the cycles thinking they are building upon a previous cycle, even if they aren't sure what happened to them, than to believe they were harvested.  Some information that is not intended to pass on, such as the Eden Prime beacon, and stuff from the second dig site on Mars will inevitably slip through the cracks.  Hence the Crucible plans getting from cycle to cycle as civilizations realize they have to warn future civilizations, and pass on what information they can to help fight the Reapers.

Liara mentions that she knows there were other cycles before the Protheans, but can't point to a single thing, but more a pattern of things that suggest it.  So it's possible that while tech maybe didn't survive, knowledge did.  Perhaps references to things from previous cycles, although I don't know how you can get "can't point to a single thing" from that.

But what if the first thing the next cycle finds is lots of info on the Reapers? Like say Liara's data from Refuse or the Inusannon or Prothean equivalent. That's why for a cycle to work the Reapers have to know exactly what is left and be very thorough. Of course you could argue that the Reaper's arrogant and superior tone when they do speak points to them believing they are invincible. So who cares if they skimp on their chores and don't make sure that what is left won't make the next cycle..err problematic. They are invincible so it won't matter, or so they think. 

Liara does mention that very little survives from the cycles before the Protheans. Hardly surprising with the time scales involved. What Vendetta says if I remember correctly suggests that information about past cycles of war and extinction do exist, suggesting a pattern. Not sure on what it's based on.
And yes I do think we are all overthinking this way too much..but this is BSN

That would tend to be a fatal flaw in their master plan, wouldn't it?  From what I've read, it turns out to be their undoing in the next cycle.  Ah well, all good things must come to an end.

[DextroDNA]

Did noone here pay attention to ME1?

The Relay within the Citadel was believed to be a statue, nothing more. By Protheans (citizens), Reapers, Keepers, everyone. That relay is only activated when the Conduit is used, otherwise - it is almost completely dormant.

The Reapers couldn't have found out from data files because the project on Ilos was kept off all records, nobody knew about it. That's how the Protheans on Ilos survived.

So, yeah. No plot holes.

[phagus]

LanceSolous13 wrote...

ZerebusPrime wrote...

The real question is why the Reapers left it there once they took back the Citadel.

I was actually under the impression that the Reapers didn't think Organics would ever be able to create a Mass Relay of their own. They probably just saw it, assumed it didn't work because "Primitives as so much less advanced than us" and left it there, completely unaware that it was fully functional, just from the other side. The Protheans seem to be the most advanced any cycle every got; but their downfall was that they conformed all species to a spesific mindset while our Cycle, more or less, praised the differences.

I am curious about how Sovrign found out about the Conduit in the first place.

He had Saren search for it..there is more info on the Mass Effect wiki if you didn't play ME1.

http://masseffect.wi.../Saren_Arterius

[LanceSolous13]

phagus wrote...

LanceSolous13 wrote...

ZerebusPrime wrote...

The real question is why the Reapers left it there once they took back the Citadel.

I was actually under the impression that the Reapers didn't think Organics would ever be able to create a Mass Relay of their own. They probably just saw it, assumed it didn't work because "Primitives as so much less advanced than us" and left it there, completely unaware that it was fully functional, just from the other side. The Protheans seem to be the most advanced any cycle every got; but their downfall was that they conformed all species to a spesific mindset while our Cycle, more or less, praised the differences.

I am curious about how Sovrign found out about the Conduit in the first place.

He had Saren search for it..there is more info on the Mass Effect wiki if you didn't play ME1.

http://masseffect.wi.../Saren_Arterius

I know. I've played ME1, like, 3 times in the last few months. He indoctrinated Saren to be his servent and search for the Mu Relay which would lead to Ilos.

We know he needed the Cypher from the Thorian to understand the beacons.
He needed the information from the Rachni Queen to find the Mu Relay.
And, lastly, using the Cypher from the Thorian, he used the beacon on Virmire to find out that the Conduit was on Ilos.

I'm under the impression that Saren's activities on Noveria, Feros, and Virmire took place pre-Eden Prime, with the beacon on EP being the last piece of the puzzle for him. After that, he just needed ti build his army of Krogan.

I'm wondering how Sovrign knew the Conduit was operational to be able to be used in his plan to open the Citadel Relay. It seems obvious that the Reapers didn't know about the Conduit when they processed the Protheans so I'm curious how Sovrign discovered it could be used.

[silentassassin264]

Sovereign didn't know what the Conduit was. All he knew was it was some Prothean device to stop the Reapers from returning. He figured he had to deal with the Conduit before he could take the Citadel. Unfortunately for him, the Conduit was just a Mass Relay and if he hadn't been so cautious, He and Saren could have taken the Citadel while Saren was still a Spectre and all the events of ME1 would have been pointless. We also wouldn't have had a series so yeah.

[LanceSolous13]

silentassassin264 wrote...

Sovereign didn't know what the Conduit was. All he knew was it was some Prothean device to stop the Reapers from returning. He figured he had to deal with the Conduit before he could take the Citadel. Unfortunately for him, the Conduit was just a Mass Relay and if he hadn't been so cautious, He and Saren could have taken the Citadel while Saren was still a Spectre and all the events of ME1 would have been pointless. We also wouldn't have had a series so yeah.

That would explain it. Thank yous.

[Oxspit]

I think the only reasonable explanation is that it's been built by the reapers. It seems to me that there are two things that need to be explained rather than just the one:

1) Why it's there at all for the Prothean conduit to link to before the Protheans had used the conduit without the reapers realising the Protheans had or could build such a back-door (point of OP).

2) How nobody realised it was an actual mass relay of some sort.

We know the reapers can build camoflaged relays - the citadel is one. It's a bit of a stretch that the Protheans could have mastered the same ind of thing in a way that fools the reapers, but without coming to realise that the citadel was such a thing as well.

They absolutely should have cleared this up after ME1 .... I actually found it a little implausible that the council was still using the citadel as their seat of government after ME1 - but then I guess the claim is that they just don't believe the place is a mass relay connected to dark space. That doesn't explain why

This wouldn't explain why it was just sitting there so conspicuously in the Presidium, though.... Maybe the reapers have a sense of humour?

[phagus]

LanceSolous13 wrote...

phagus wrote...

LanceSolous13 wrote...

ZerebusPrime wrote...

The real question is why the Reapers left it there once they took back the Citadel.

I was actually under the impression that the Reapers didn't think Organics would ever be able to create a Mass Relay of their own. They probably just saw it, assumed it didn't work because "Primitives as so much less advanced than us" and left it there, completely unaware that it was fully functional, just from the other side. The Protheans seem to be the most advanced any cycle every got; but their downfall was that they conformed all species to a spesific mindset while our Cycle, more or less, praised the differences.

I am curious about how Sovrign found out about the Conduit in the first place.

He had Saren search for it..there is more info on the Mass Effect wiki if you didn't play ME1.

http://masseffect.wi.../Saren_Arterius

I know. I've played ME1, like, 3 times in the last few months. He indoctrinated Saren to be his servent and search for the Mu Relay which would lead to Ilos.

We know he needed the Cypher from the Thorian to understand the beacons.
He needed the information from the Rachni Queen to find the Mu Relay.
And, lastly, using the Cypher from the Thorian, he used the beacon on Virmire to find out that the Conduit was on Ilos.

I'm under the impression that Saren's activities on Noveria, Feros, and Virmire took place pre-Eden Prime, with the beacon on EP being the last piece of the puzzle for him. After that, he just needed ti build his army of Krogan.

I'm wondering how Sovrign knew the Conduit was operational to be able to be used in his plan to open the Citadel Relay. It seems obvious that the Reapers didn't know about the Conduit when they processed the Protheans so I'm curious how Sovrign discovered it could be used.

Sorry but I didn't realise from reading your previous post that was what you were asking.

I guess it depend on whether the Relay Monument is Reaper built or not. If it is then perhaps any Prothean disruption, if it isn't the Citadel Relay as well, didn't effect it. Or that Saren could override it from Ilos. If the Relay Monument is Prothean built like the sender part on Ilos then I don't understand why the Reapers didn't know about it. Or if they did why they left it there untouched and fully operational.

[pbi298]

I think it's pretty clear the Relay Monument was built by the Protheans as part of the Ilos project.

Why place it where they did, on the Presidium? Well, it's a top secret project, so most Protheans wouldn't know it existed. If word did leak out that the government was experimenting with building mass relays, where better to hide part of the project but in plain sight? Additionally, it's very close to the base of the Presidium Spire itself, so, like someone else said, it's perfectly situated for a flashy display of success and budget justification

Why did no one know it was a mini-relay? Well, again the secrecy is part of it: the Ilos Project was known to only a tiny handful of people and was not even in the main databanks, so the Reapers wouldn't have known about it, even after they took the Citadel. Additionally, since it was only capable of receiving, it might not have shown up on a scan the way a mass relay should have. It certainly didn't to anyone around at the ME1 timeframe.

Also, don't discount Victory Disease. Just because the Reapers are intelligent and have really nice kit doesn't mean they can't/didn't succumb to believing their own press. Due to the fact that what they did worked in each cycle (i.e. gave them Victory), they may have started assuming theirs was the One True Way and didn't do their proper Staff Surveys. The Allies made that mistake after the Great War and look what that got them in 1940.

Since the Relay Monument 1) wasn't active and acting like a 'real' mass relay, 2) didn't exist in the records as anything other than a nice bit of Prothean unknowing homage to the Reapers (nice bit of irony there), and 3) the Reapers obviously didn't expunge absolutely everything about a previous cycle (just the main bits), I don't see the problem in them having missed the Monument as anything worthy of note.

[phagus]

Oxspit wrote...

I think the only reasonable explanation is that it's been built by the reapers. It seems to me that there are two things that need to be explained rather than just the one:

1) Why it's there at all for the Prothean conduit to link to before the Protheans had used the conduit without the reapers realising the Protheans had or could build such a back-door (point of OP).

2) How nobody realised it was an actual mass relay of some sort.

We know the reapers can build camoflaged relays - the citadel is one. It's a bit of a stretch that the Protheans could have mastered the same ind of thing in a way that fools the reapers, but without coming to realise that the citadel was such a thing as well.

They absolutely should have cleared this up after ME1 .... I actually found it a little implausible that the council was still using the citadel as their seat of government after ME1 - but then I guess the claim is that they just don't believe the place is a mass relay connected to dark space. That doesn't explain why

This wouldn't explain why it was just sitting there so conspicuously in the Presidium, though.... Maybe the reapers have a sense of humour?

The Citadel being Reaper tech could be making everyone feel secure, and if the Relay Monument is Reaper built make everyone see it as art. The idea that Sovereign was Geth, even though Shepard and crew know otherwise, was a comforting story the Council wanted to believe. Bits of Sovereign did fall all over the Citadel possibly subtly indoctrinating all who lived there. I always wondered how much influence the Citadel has on those who live there particularly the Council. I guess they're just more unanswered questions.

[Oxspit]

pbi298 wrote...

I think it's pretty clear the Relay Monument was built by the Protheans as part of the Ilos project.

Why place it where they did, on the Presidium? Well, it's a top secret project, so most Protheans wouldn't know it existed. If word did leak out that the government was experimenting with building mass relays, where better to hide part of the project but in plain sight? Additionally, it's very close to the base of the Presidium Spire itself, so, like someone else said, it's perfectly situated for a flashy display of success and budget justification

That doesn't explain why the reapers, the undisputed masters of relay technology, didn't recognise it for what it was. Or how the Protheans managed to achieve that kind of mastery without realising their seat of government was one big camouflaged relay.

Or maybe the reapers just take the citadel then have the following conversation:

"Well, bugger me, the Protheans have built a camouflaged mass relay on our Citadel. Isn't that cute? Oh, well, I guess we should remove it"

"Remove it? No, I really couldn't be buggered doing that. What possible mischief could they do with something like that?"

No... the only reasonable solution is that the reapers built it. I'm disinclined to believe it's the focal point of the citadel-dark space relay, myself, (I'm assuming the other relays are the size they are for good reason) but there are obvious benefits for them being able to overwhelm the citadel with ground forces via a back-door, so it's reasonable enough to assume they have such a thing built in to the citadel.

[Oxspit]

phagus wrote...

Oxspit wrote...

I think the only reasonable explanation is that it's been built by the reapers. It seems to me that there are two things that need to be explained rather than just the one:

1) Why it's there at all for the Prothean conduit to link to before the Protheans had used the conduit without the reapers realising the Protheans had or could build such a back-door (point of OP).

2) How nobody realised it was an actual mass relay of some sort.

We know the reapers can build camoflaged relays - the citadel is one. It's a bit of a stretch that the Protheans could have mastered the same ind of thing in a way that fools the reapers, but without coming to realise that the citadel was such a thing as well.

They absolutely should have cleared this up after ME1 .... I actually found it a little implausible that the council was still using the citadel as their seat of government after ME1 - but then I guess the claim is that they just don't believe the place is a mass relay connected to dark space. That doesn't explain why

This wouldn't explain why it was just sitting there so conspicuously in the Presidium, though.... Maybe the reapers have a sense of humour?

The Citadel being Reaper tech could be making everyone feel secure, and if the Relay Monument is Reaper built make everyone see it as art. The idea that Sovereign was Geth, even though Shepard and crew know otherwise, was a comforting story the Council wanted to believe. Bits of Sovereign did fall all over the Citadel possibly subtly indoctrinating all who lived there. I always wondered how much influence the Citadel has on those who live there particularly the Council. I guess they're just more unanswered questions.

Yeah, I get that... but, like, even if the Geth were the perpetrators and the reapers don't exist, the Geth (who are still all out there) just showed themselves able to do some pretty funky stuff using trap-doors everyone had no idea existed.... (are there others? Who knows?)

Let's just say that either way I wouldn't feel super-comfortable keeping all my important stuff on the Citadel after ME1.

[JimTasty]

I wonder how they got there because the relays obviously had still been locked down because they couldnt get back. Does that mean the Reapers hadnt left for Dark Space yet? How did the receiver get to the Citadel?

[JimTasty]

Also The Conduit (sender) is much larger than the receiver. that is strange

[phagus]

pbi298 wrote...

I think it's pretty clear the Relay Monument was built by the Protheans as part of the Ilos project.

Why place it where they did, on the Presidium? Well, it's a top secret project, so most Protheans wouldn't know it existed. If word did leak out that the government was experimenting with building mass relays, where better to hide part of the project but in plain sight? Additionally, it's very close to the base of the Presidium Spire itself, so, like someone else said, it's perfectly situated for a flashy display of success and budget justification

Why did no one know it was a mini-relay? Well, again the secrecy is part of it: the Ilos Project was known to only a tiny handful of people and was not even in the main databanks, so the Reapers wouldn't have known about it, even after they took the Citadel. Additionally, since it was only capable of receiving, it might not have shown up on a scan the way a mass relay should have. It certainly didn't to anyone around at the ME1 timeframe.

Also, don't discount Victory Disease. Just because the Reapers are intelligent and have really nice kit doesn't mean they can't/didn't succumb to believing their own press. Due to the fact that what they did worked in each cycle (i.e. gave them Victory), they may have started assuming theirs was the One True Way and didn't do their proper Staff Surveys. The Allies made that mistake after the Great War and look what that got them in 1940.

Since the Relay Monument 1) wasn't active and acting like a 'real' mass relay, 2) didn't exist in the records as anything other than a nice bit of Prothean unknowing homage to the Reapers (nice bit of irony there), and 3) the Reapers obviously didn't expunge absolutely everything about a previous cycle (just the main bits), I don't see the problem in them having missed the Monument as anything worthy of note.

Did the Citadel have anything on it that isn't Reaper built, apart from the Relay Monument and plants that may have been there when the Asari discovered it? No statues, monuments from all the previous cycles? I got the impression that the Keepers modify everything non organic (when they are not in Reaper mode or dealing with the protein vats) to fit how the Citadel should be. Fixing it, moving bulkheads etc. Getting it ready for the next cycle to find. Why didn't they remove the Relay Monument? If the Reapers win this cycle would they remove the Krogan monument?

Ignoring such a large structure which looks just like a Relay (must be made of similar material as well) and must have an eezo core (and a power source as well) seems particularly strange when its right next to the really important tower.. 

All the council races thinking it's a piece of art as well. When everything they have found that looks like this is a Mass Relay, inactive Relays are mapped before being activated and don't emit radiation even when active but not being used. Reapers should know the difference even if council races don't.  Maybe it's Reaper built and the Conduit sender just links to it.

[Oxspit]

JimTasty wrote...

Also The Conduit (sender) is much larger than the receiver. that is strange

There's no necessary reason to believe that the conduit builds its mass effect tunnel (or whatever) directly to the monument.

The initial receiver could actually be the relay closest to the citadel (this could also be the case for the dark space jump come to that), or some sequence of relays ending thus....

[phagus]

Oxspit wrote...

phagus wrote...

Oxspit wrote...

I think the only reasonable explanation is that it's been built by the reapers. It seems to me that there are two things that need to be explained rather than just the one:

1) Why it's there at all for the Prothean conduit to link to before the Protheans had used the conduit without the reapers realising the Protheans had or could build such a back-door (point of OP).

2) How nobody realised it was an actual mass relay of some sort.

We know the reapers can build camoflaged relays - the citadel is one. It's a bit of a stretch that the Protheans could have mastered the same ind of thing in a way that fools the reapers, but without coming to realise that the citadel was such a thing as well.

They absolutely should have cleared this up after ME1 .... I actually found it a little implausible that the council was still using the citadel as their seat of government after ME1 - but then I guess the claim is that they just don't believe the place is a mass relay connected to dark space. That doesn't explain why

This wouldn't explain why it was just sitting there so conspicuously in the Presidium, though.... Maybe the reapers have a sense of humour?

The Citadel being Reaper tech could be making everyone feel secure, and if the Relay Monument is Reaper built make everyone see it as art. The idea that Sovereign was Geth, even though Shepard and crew know otherwise, was a comforting story the Council wanted to believe. Bits of Sovereign did fall all over the Citadel possibly subtly indoctrinating all who lived there. I always wondered how much influence the Citadel has on those who live there particularly the Council. I guess they're just more unanswered questions.

Yeah, I get that... but, like, even if the Geth were the perpetrators and the reapers don't exist, the Geth (who are still all out there) just showed themselves able to do some pretty funky stuff using trap-doors everyone had no idea existed.... (are there others? Who knows?)

Let's just say that either way I wouldn't feel super-comfortable keeping all my important stuff on the Citadel after ME1.

But why wouldn't you? When the Citadel is such a nice secure place to live.
Why would you want to leave when every night you have really nice dreams about a glowing child

[JimTasty]

Does bioWare explain any of this?