278 réponses à ce sujet

[InfinitePaths]

 So i have been reading a lot of posts about Templars-mages and what is wrong with either side but i have come up with a solution that is achieveable and i think everyone would agree to.

So i would recommend for Templars to become like the Police for mages.Leave the mages to be free,live freely in the cites with their familes and so on,but if they do a crime like use blood magic it would be reported to the Templars and ONLY THEN would the templars have the right to imprison them and so on...I'm not saying this is the best solution,ofc some of the mages would be wrongly accused and some would slip away from the Templar-Police but i think it still  is a stable solution and definitly better than the one we have right now in Theadas.

What do you think about my solution,leave a response and maybe tell me your solution?

[Xilizhra]

I thank you for your input, but this very idea has been discussed a gajilion times. That said, welcome to the right side.

(Though I don't think blood magic should be an automatic crime.)

[MisterJB]

I think it doesn't work.
By allowing the mages to live freely you increase the number of victims they would have easy acess to and you slow down the Templar response. You don't arrest someone after his homemade explosive destroyed his entire district either by malice or accident. You stop him from building one in the first place.
Precaution is the best solution.

Your solution also fails to take into consideration the possibility for a blood mage to infiltrate the state as well as the simple fact normal people do not want to live alongside mages.

Modifié par MisterJB, 06 août 2012 - 02:00 .

[Xilizhra]

You don't arrest someone after his homemade explosive destroyed his entire district either by malice or accident. You stop him from building one in the first place.

Last time I checked, the real world wasn't Minority Report. I know of someone who tried to build a nuclear reactor in his garage and we could only tell him to stop doing it after he'd blown something up. "Precaution" doesn't mean assuming that everyone is guilty.

[MisterJB]

We have laws that forbid common citizens from owning something like a tank or uranium because it is incredibly dangerous.
Unfortunately, mages are born, not created and they are a threat to themselves and others. We are not assuming they are all guilty, we accept the fact that they are all dangerous and precaution dictates we minimize the danger they present to themselves and others. This includes separation from potential victims as well as constant scrutiny by a police force capable of combating magic.

Modifié par MisterJB, 06 août 2012 - 02:10 .

[The Hierophant]

You could also add this to your solution. The Templar's training should be made available to aspiring guardsmen, royal guards, and soldiers of Thedas. The mages would attend a boarding school styled institution. Said mages would be allowed to visit their families on scheduled occasions, and send letters to their friends/family. Graduation from the institute would take place after 10-12 years, plus whatever test is deemed suitable by the administrators. The use of blood magic without a license leads to prison, and using it to assault living beings is punishable by death.

[Xilizhra]

MisterJB wrote...

We have laws that forbid common citizens from owning something like a tank or uranium because it is incredibly dangerous.
Unfortunately, mages are born, not created and they are a threat to themselves and others. We are not assuming they are all guilty, we accept the fact that they are all dangerous and precaution dictates we minimize the danger they present to themselves and others. This includes separation from potential victims as well as constant scrutiny by a police force capable of combating magic.

And therein lies the rub: the focus of this police force should be protecting mages. They, after all, are the ones at the most personal risk of demonic infiltration; if a demon possesses a mage, the surroundings are obviously in danger, but the individual mage is completely screwed. Hence, the primary focus should be protecting mages from demons and the secondary focus laying down defensive lines in case one does get possessed. Mage crimes not involving possession should be dealt with the same as any other crime, just with the investigations conducted by those who can go up against magic.

[brushyourteeth]

Xilizhra wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

We have laws that forbid common citizens from owning something like a tank or uranium because it is incredibly dangerous.
Unfortunately, mages are born, not created and they are a threat to themselves and others. We are not assuming they are all guilty, we accept the fact that they are all dangerous and precaution dictates we minimize the danger they present to themselves and others. This includes separation from potential victims as well as constant scrutiny by a police force capable of combating magic.

And therein lies the rub: the focus of this police force should be protecting mages. They, after all, are the ones at the most personal risk of demonic infiltration; if a demon possesses a mage, the surroundings are obviously in danger, but the individual mage is completely screwed. Hence, the primary focus should be protecting mages from demons and the secondary focus laying down defensive lines in case one does get possessed. Mage crimes not involving possession should be dealt with the same as any other crime, just with the investigations conducted by those who can go up against magic.

Well put, both of you. 

[MisterJB]

Flesh eating diseases, hurricanes, earthquakes and volcanos are also natural phenomenons.
If we let nature decide what the world should be like, we would still be leaving in caves.

Modifié par MisterJB, 06 août 2012 - 05:56 .

[Urzon]

MisterJB wrote...

Flesh eating diseases, hurricanes, earthquakes and volcanos are also natural phenomenons.
If we let nature decide what the world should be like, we would still be leaving in caves.

Nature decided that there would be: flesh eating diseases, earthquakes, hurricanes, volcanos, tornadoes, floods, forest fires, droughts, blizzards, and plagues. Yet people still aren't living in caves....

Why?

Because we adapted to said natural phenomenons.

Modifié par Urzon, 06 août 2012 - 07:35 .

[Ausstig]

HeriocGreyWarden wrote...

 So i have been reading a lot of posts about Templars-mages and what is wrong with either side but i have come up with a solution that is achieveable and i think everyone would agree to.

So i would recommend for Templars to become like the Police for mages.Leave the mages to be free,live freely in the cites with their familes and so on,but if they do a crime like use blood magic it would be reported to the Templars and ONLY THEN would the templars have the right to imprison them and so on...I'm not saying this is the best solution,ofc some of the mages would be wrongly accused and some would slip away from the Templar-Police but i think it still  is a stable solution and definitly better than the one we have right now in Theadas.

What do you think about my solution,leave a response and maybe tell me your solution?

Prevention is better then Cure. Your solution only deals with the mages after they; kill somone/sit fire to some/ what ever they did. 

Your solution favors the wants (Freedom) of the few (Mages) over the needs (safety) of the many (Everyone else). The current solution, which could use a couple of tweks but not a major over hall, does the reverse, it insurese that no one will be killed by a mage who is angry at the world and lacks the want/training to control them selves. 

Keep trying, you heart is in the wrong place, as Mr Spock once said "The needs of the Many outweigh the needs of the Few".

[Urzon]

Ausstig wrote...

Keep trying, you heart is in the wrong place, as Mr Spock once said "The needs of the Many outweigh the needs of the Few".

Such an overused statement.

Yes, logic dictates that, but since when were humans ever being purely logical creatures? It easier to say that statement when its someone else's freedoms and rights are taken away for your safety, just some faceless mage you don't know nor care about.

But what would happen if they came for you? Your mother? Father? Brother? Sister? Your own child? Templars breaking down your door demanding you turn yourself or loved one over because they might a risk in the future?

Would you be able to tell your son/daughter that, they need to go with the templars; because they are now a danger to their own family and everyone around them? That they might turn into an abomination in the distant future, and possibly kill them all? Tell them to their face, that you are going to give them to the templars for your own and everyone else's safety, because their a danger now.
Talk about mentally scaring on a child's mind, and we wonder why there are so many insane mages.

Modifié par Urzon, 06 août 2012 - 10:52 .

[Xilizhra]

Ausstig wrote...

HeriocGreyWarden wrote...

 So i have been reading a lot of posts about Templars-mages and what is wrong with either side but i have come up with a solution that is achieveable and i think everyone would agree to.

So i would recommend for Templars to become like the Police for mages.Leave the mages to be free,live freely in the cites with their familes and so on,but if they do a crime like use blood magic it would be reported to the Templars and ONLY THEN would the templars have the right to imprison them and so on...I'm not saying this is the best solution,ofc some of the mages would be wrongly accused and some would slip away from the Templar-Police but i think it still  is a stable solution and definitly better than the one we have right now in Theadas.

What do you think about my solution,leave a response and maybe tell me your solution?

Prevention is better then Cure. Your solution only deals with the mages after they; kill somone/sit fire to some/ what ever they did. 

Your solution favors the wants (Freedom) of the few (Mages) over the needs (safety) of the many (Everyone else). The current solution, which could use a couple of tweks but not a major over hall, does the reverse, it insurese that no one will be killed by a mage who is angry at the world and lacks the want/training to control them selves. 

Keep trying, you heart is in the wrong place, as Mr Spock once said "The needs of the Many outweigh the needs of the Few".

If you're talking about mage criminals who aren't possessed, you're basically assuming that they're all guilty and imprisoning them on that basis. This isn't legitimate.

[DPSSOC]

Urzon wrote...

Ausstig wrote...
Keep trying, you heart is in the wrong place, as Mr Spock once said "The needs of the Many outweigh the needs of the Few".

Such an overused statement.

Yes, logic dictates that, but since when were humans ever being purely logical creatures? It easier to say that statement when its someone else's freedoms and rights are taken away for your safety, just some faceless mage you don't know nor care about.

But what would happen if they came for you? Your mother? Father? Brother? Sister? Your own child? Templars breaking down your door demanding you turn yourself or loved one over because they might a risk in the future?

 
Firstly it's not that a mage might be a risk in the future; they are a risk now.  Now nothing may come of that risk, just like I could walk out into a thunderstorm holding a metal rod high above my head and I might not get hit by lightning, but that doesn`t change the fact that the risk is there.

Secondly yes, if I were to find out that just by existing I posed a danger to the people around me I would turn myself in.  Because while I may want to be free I acknowledge that my wants don`t negate other people`s wants just because they`re mine.  I want to be free and Jim, Mark, Lucy, Steve, Michael, and Ann want to be safe, sadly we can't have both.

[DPSSOC]

Nizaris1 wrote...
There is no risk, it is just a pure propaganda from the Chantry. If there is such risk, then Circle Tower is at risk 24/7, why all mage kids didn't blow the Circle all these time accidentally?

Because they are surrounded, 24/7 by people (Senior mages and Templars) who are capable of containing any accidents.  Free mages would have no such support.

Nizaris1 wrote...
if want to say about danger, everything around us are dangerous...even a cat can scratch your face out of sudden...dogs are dangerous too...do we gather all cats and dogs, lock them up because they have fangs and claws and might bite our children in the future?

You can train cats and dogs not to attack people, you can declaw them or muzzle them if they can't be trained.  Furthermore (where I live anyway) we restrict the breeding and ownership of certain dogs because they are considered to be too agressive, too dangerous, and if a dog or cat does hurt or kill somebody we generally put them down.  Yes dogs and cats are a risk, people have been killed in the past, but it's a calculated risk based on our ability to mitigate it.

You can't train somebody to never make a mistake, to never have an accident.  You can't just glare at people and tell them not to mess up, it's not practical.  So our ability to mitigate the risk posed by mages is limited to keeping them away from people.  Training only goes so far and as of yet there's only one way to muzzle a mage.  I don't think you want us going that route.

[EricHVela]

Current Templars believe in guilty without proof. Sinners in the hands of an angry Maker. Witch-hunt. That type of thing.

Current Templars believe that the risk of one mage going bad is too much of a risk due to the damage they can cause despite proof of wide-spread destruction from mundanes. They believe that a mage has far too easy access to an arsenal of weaponry that mundanes must work to achieve an equal power. They believe that mages face temptation from fade spririts all of the time.

Without emotionally neutering every living being on the planet, they believe the next best thing is to contain mages and emotionally neuter them when they think there are signs of corruption. They believe that tranquility is a kindness to the alternative.

Why they don't think that killing all magic by disconnecting the fade from everyone (tranquilizing the entire world) is beyond me. It would be one thing to think it is impossible, but it's another to think it's horrific when they use it on others as a kindness.

[DPSSOC]

Nizaris1 wrote...
Chinese philosophy say..."there is no accident"

Which if I'm not mistaken is in reference to destiny, fate, or karma.  The idea that random chance doesn't exist.  It's an interesting idea and certainly arguable however for my purposes accident refers to unforseen, unintended consequences to your actions.

Nizaris1 wrote...
Like these mages, they are born naturally as natural phenomenon...the nature demand they exist as they are to be a part of nature. It is the way it should be.

Dogs and cats are born with fangs and claws, dogs can kill people, but not all dogs kill people. You muzzle some dogs, but do you muzzle ALL dogs? You put down some dogs because they are too dangerous, wild, but do you put down ALL dogs?

Do you understand now?

I understand but I'm afraid you don't.  We accept the risk of owning dogs or cats because we have means of mitigating that risk.  We have the means to prevent such events from occurring.  Furthermore we accept that the risks of owning cats and dogs is outweighed by the benefits.

With free mages we have no means of mitigation and 0 benefit for the danger.  There is no added benefit of having free mages to balance out the danger they pose to the populace.  It's why mages aren't outright killed because the Circle allows us to reduce the risk mages pose to the point that their continued existence is more beneficial than harmful.

Another thing is that we hold people who own dogs and cats responsible for the safety of those around them.  If my dog attacks and kills a kid I am responsible.  Almost universally animal owners accept that.  Mages in DA accept no such responsibility, the fact that they don't even acknowledge that they pose a danger to other people demonstrates this.

[Xilizhra]

Another thing is that we hold people who own dogs and cats responsible for the safety of those around them. If my dog attacks and kills a kid I am responsible. Almost universally animal owners accept that. Mages in DA accept no such responsibility, the fact that they don't even acknowledge that they pose a danger to other people demonstrates this.

That's not the primary reason for the rebellion; the primary reason is the abuses of the Templar Order. That's why this war is the templar problem, not the mage question. The mage question has numerous means of answering it without the Templar Order.

[General User]

DPSSOC wrote...

Nizaris1 wrote...
Chinese philosophy say..."there is no accident"

Which if I'm not mistaken is in reference to destiny, fate, or karma.  The idea that random chance doesn't exist.  It's an interesting idea and certainly arguable however for my purposes accident refers to unforseen, unintended consequences to your actions.

Nizaris1 wrote...
Like these mages, they are born naturally as natural phenomenon...the nature demand they exist as they are to be a part of nature. It is the way it should be.

Dogs and cats are born with fangs and claws, dogs can kill people, but not all dogs kill people. You muzzle some dogs, but do you muzzle ALL dogs? You put down some dogs because they are too dangerous, wild, but do you put down ALL dogs?

Do you understand now?

I understand but I'm afraid you don't.  We accept the risk of owning dogs or cats because we have means of mitigating that risk.  We have the means to prevent such events from occurring.  Furthermore we accept that the risks of owning cats and dogs is outweighed by the benefits.

With free mages we have no means of mitigation and 0 benefit for the danger.  There is no added benefit of having free mages to balance out the danger they pose to the populace.  It's why mages aren't outright killed because the Circle allows us to reduce the risk mages pose to the point that their continued existence is more beneficial than harmful.

Another thing is that we hold people who own dogs and cats responsible for the safety of those around them.  If my dog attacks and kills a kid I am responsible.  Almost universally animal owners accept that.  Mages in DA accept no such responsibility, the fact that they don't even acknowledge that they pose a danger to other people demonstrates this.

The mages to dangerous animals analogy might actually be a good one in alot of ways.  It's certainly similar to how the qunari see things.

[Adanu]

The Qunari are idiots, and so is the Chantry. It's why the mage circles rebelled.

Frankly, I'm amazed it didn't happen sooner. You kick the dog while it's down an eventually it's going to get up and bite your ass.

Modifié par Adanu, 06 août 2012 - 05:27 .

[GavrielKay]

DPSSOC wrote...
With free mages we have no means of mitigation and 0 benefit for the danger.

I think this is only partly true, and the part that is true, is mostly because people stopped looking for better answers.

Why would the Litany of Adralla be some weird thing we hear about only in an emergency?  It should be distributed everywhere, children should be taught it as a bedtime story.  Seriously, there's a simple litany that anyone can recite which protects anyone from mind control and it's hidden in a circle...  that speaks to the overall mindset that is active in Thedas.  Once they got the idea to lock the mages up, they stopped thinking about alternatives.  What about anti-magic wards?  Demon repelling runes over farmers' doors?  Or research into how to make the Rite of Tranquility something that doesn't lobotomize a mage?  In a world of magic, demons, elves etc...  why is it so easy to dismiss other possibilities?

There are several problems with the whole 'lock 'em up, they're too dangerous' mindset:

1)  The majority decide they don't want to put up with the risk posed by a minority...  that's a bad precedent.  Soon the majority doesn't like two-handed warriors because, really, they kick butt and could wipe out a village of farmers no problem.  Better lock them up.  Tyranny by the majority is a bad thing, no matter why they think they are justified.  You can pretend there's something inherently "different" about mages, but once you've drawn a line anywhere, it's just a matter of who puts on pressure to move that line.

2)  This simplistic solution allows everyone involved to avoid responsibility to come up with something better.

3)  Treating mages as criminals regardless of any actual actions on their part gives them zero reason to behave well.  I'd tear up a town of bigoted villagers before I'd let them cart me off to prison to be abused by religious zealots.  And there is plenty of in-game evidence that parents will break the rules to protect their children from that fate.  The system is too harsh and motivates people to resist.

4)  Life is dangerous.  As other folks have mentioned...  you've got earthquakes, fires, tsunamis...  just because it is physically possible to lock up a mage doesn't make it right.  Mages are a natural occurrence and should be treated as such.  In the same way people build earthquake resistant housing, but don't forbid each other from living in an earthquake zone.  There are reasonable steps to take in protecting oneself and then there's going too far.  Locking up thousands of people because the rest don't think they should have to put up with the risk isn't any better than forbidding folk to be fisherman because living on the coast could result in getting killed by a hurricane.