278 réponses à ce sujet

[GavrielKay]

brushyourteeth wrote...
They need to carefully police themselves in order to avoid being policed by others or corrupted into something they'd be ashamed of.

It makes sense to me to have a joint "police" force of mages and specially trained non-mages to ensure that mages follow the law.  It will never make sense to put the mages at the mercy of religious zealots who think they are cursed.  At least not sense in any way that backs up the Chantry's claim to be protecting people.

The Chantry's refusal to make concessions on mage freedom has lead to a predictable war.  Surely it would have been better to grant the mages enough freedom to take the edge off the anger before it boiled over.

[MisterJB]

brushyourteeth wrote...
They need to carefully police themselves in order to avoid being policed by others or corrupted into something they'd be ashamed of.

The templars must help. A conjoined security force meant to protect all, mundanes and mages, from the dangers of magic. Criminal mages, demons, growing resentment and fear within the mundane population.
Obviously, the mundanes can't trust mages to have their best interests at heart.

[Treacherous J Slither]

DPSSOC wrote...

JSlither wrote...
I agree completely that the same tactic won't always work. However, you're Swamp Fox is no mage. If the Templar supply caravans were fireballed, hidden soldiers would simply burn and die.

 
Generally if you're ambushing supply lines it's because you want the supplies, especially for the mages as theft is probably going to be the only way they'll be able to get anything.

JSlither wrote...
If the mages used blood magic they could just force the soldiers to kill each other and then take the supplies for themselves. If a bunch of mages get the drop on you, you're dead. What counter could there possibly be to a mage ambush?

Depends; straight up magic assault the Templars have abilities to deal with.  Mind Domination there's the Litany, various magic items the Templars have no doubt stored to make them more resistant to various types of magic.  Not to mention if they can hold onto a few Tranquil they can keep making more.  Keep in mind the Templars are an army and I have little doubt this is a war they've been preparing for for some time.

This is of course working on the assumption that the mages, who've had no martial instruction ever, could plan and execute a successful ambush.  Also the assumption that one or more of them doesn't become an abomination because they've suffered a wound and start panicking.

The supplies I speak of are mostly lyrium shipments. The mages can go shopping just like the mundanes to get what they need. The Templars cannot. The mages can destroy these lyrium shipments at no cost to themselves. Only the Templars will suffer from that. Why do you believe that the mages must steal in order to get anything? You can't tell if someone is a mage just by looking at them. They can go grocery shopping without any one being the wiser.

In order to use the Litany you have to know that someone is about to attempt to mind control you. The Litany is useless in a surprise attack. Not only that but you must use it again for each and every attempt. There is no lasting effect. 

I agree that with a straight up assault that the Templars could survive and put up a fight that's why I encourage the idea of ambushes and sneak attacks. Hitting them when their pants are down. Infiltration and assasination. Ninja tactics. Hit and run. Think of the Templars like the police. They make their presence known because they're walking around in uniform. If some knucklehead wanted to kill a cop it would be easy. Just walk up behind him and shoot/stab him. The chances of this person getting away with the murder would be very low but if he were a mage and able to shapeshift he'd be able to get away clean. Apostates don't make their presence known. They hide amongst the populace. If you wanted to take out an apostate you'd first have to find one and how exactly would you be able to accomplish that? By asking everyone whether or not they had magic powers? Good luck with that.

I also agree that most mages have little to no combat training and my ideas won't be very common place. At first anyway. As the war wears on the mages will realize what their strengths are and behave accordingly. In the beginning the only ones who would be using my ideas are the apostates who have been living and fighting in secret all their lives and will then train the other mages to do the same.

The Templars have no hope of victory.

[brushyourteeth]

GavrielKay wrote...

brushyourteeth wrote...
They need to carefully police themselves in order to avoid being policed by others or corrupted into something they'd be ashamed of.

It makes sense to me to have a joint "police" force of mages and specially trained non-mages to ensure that mages follow the law.  It will never make sense to put the mages at the mercy of religious zealots who think they are cursed.  At least not sense in any way that backs up the Chantry's claim to be protecting people.

The Chantry's refusal to make concessions on mage freedom has lead to a predictable war.  Surely it would have been better to grant the mages enough freedom to take the edge off the anger before it boiled over.

MisterJB wrote...
The templars must help. A conjoined security force meant to protect all, mundanes and mages, from the dangers of magic. Criminal mages, demons, growing resentment and fear within the mundane population.
Obviously, the mundanes can't trust mages to have their best interests at heart.

Yeah, I think in any society with some level of magic it makes sense to have warriors with Templar abilities. Someone who can interrupt a nasty mage brawl without having to freeze-shatter anyone, and because honestly, most mages aren't keen on having abominations running around their home either. The situation with Evangeline in Asunder, as well as with Thrask and Keran showed that mages and some Templars can be friends. They even seem to have something similar in the TI.

What becomes tricky, though, is both government and blood magic. When only, or mostly mages hold every political station, non-mages have a higher chance of being mistreated. It's by no means a definite thing (my Hawke mage would have made an amazing Viscount and her powers would have only affected her office insomuch as she was able to clean up the streets pretty effectively) but non-mages can quickly become the new second-class citizens, like they have in Tevinter.

Are these new mages ok with blood magic? If they are, is mind domination ok? Is using the blood of others ok? Even if they're unwilling? Even if they die? If it's done in secret, will they turn a blind eye like in the Tevinter Imperium? Or will they investigate and punish mages who use mind domination and blood thralls? If they punish, what kind of punishment will they use? Is Tranquility off the table? Even for those mages who would rather become Tranquil than grow into their full power, for fear of possession? What's to be done about somniari?

All I can say is I hope the united mages come up with some excellent, and very decisive answers.

[DKJaigen]

brushyourteeth wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

So are we just dropping the whole idea that free mages won't become another Imperium or...

Yeah we are. Anyone saying that free mages will turn into another empire is an idiot period.

Looks like I'm a proud idiot then!

People will eventually abuse their power if there aren't significant repercussions to deter them. Mages, non-mages, Chantry, non-Chantry - it doesn't matter. The mages would be foolish to go into this thing with a "We could never end up like Tevinter" type of attitude. The only difference between other mages and Tevinter ones now that they have their independence is time and geography. They need to carefully police themselves in order to avoid being policed by others or corrupted into something they'd be ashamed of.

I find the whole "power corrupts" irrelevant . Social , cultural and political factors are far more important then just power.

Modifié par DKJaigen, 13 août 2012 - 08:04 .

[Goneaviking]

Xilizhra wrote...

The only difference between other mages and Tevinter ones now that they have their independence is time and geography.

And thousands of years of a slaveholding culture?

Given that mages are in practice slaves to the Templars/Chantry they have that history already. Reality has proven time after time that the abused are prone to becoming abusers themselves, it's naive to assume that mages wouldn't do unto others what has been done unto them should they find themselves in a position that would make it seem plausible.

[Goneaviking]

DKJaigen wrote...
I find the whole "power corrupts" irrelevant . Social , cultural and political factors are far more important then just power.

The most important factor would likely be how power is attained in the first place. It tends to define how it's seen by it's possessors, as well as what measures they're prepared to employ to keep it.

[DPSSOC]

JSlither wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

JSlither wrote...
I agree completely that the same tactic won't always work. However, you're Swamp Fox is no mage. If the Templar supply caravans were fireballed, hidden soldiers would simply burn and die.

 
Generally if you're ambushing supply lines it's because you want the supplies, especially for the mages as theft is probably going to be the only way they'll be able to get anything.

JSlither wrote...
If the mages used blood magic they could just force the soldiers to kill each other and then take the supplies for themselves. If a bunch of mages get the drop on you, you're dead. What counter could there possibly be to a mage ambush?

Depends; straight up magic assault the Templars have abilities to deal with.  Mind Domination there's the Litany, various magic items the Templars have no doubt stored to make them more resistant to various types of magic.  Not to mention if they can hold onto a few Tranquil they can keep making more.  Keep in mind the Templars are an army and I have little doubt this is a war they've been preparing for for some time.

This is of course working on the assumption that the mages, who've had no martial instruction ever, could plan and execute a successful ambush.  Also the assumption that one or more of them doesn't become an abomination because they've suffered a wound and start panicking.

The supplies I speak of are mostly lyrium shipments. The mages can go shopping just like the mundanes to get what they need. The Templars cannot. The mages can destroy these lyrium shipments at no cost to themselves.  Only the Templars will suffer from that.

 
I'd think Lyrium would be one of those supplies the mages would want most.  It's not like it's completely useless to them.

JSlither wrote...
Why do you believe that the mages must steal in order to get anything? You can't tell if someone is a mage just by looking at them. They can go grocery shopping without any one being the wiser.

The Mages have no established source of income, nor do they have any kind of stockpile or savings, any money made by the Circles would go to the Chantry.  Yeah they can go shopping but they don't have any money.  Furthermore anyone buying supplies in the quantities the mages would need is going to draw attention, a farmer isn't just going to sell the bulk of their crop to some guy.

In order to use the Litany you have to know that someone is about to attempt to mind control you. The Litany is useless in a surprise attack. Not only that but you must use it again for each and every attempt. There is no lasting effect. 

JSlither wrote...
Think of the Templars like the police. They make their presence known because they're walking around in uniform. If some knucklehead wanted to kill a cop it would be easy. Just walk up behind him and shoot/stab him. The chances of this person getting away with the murder would be very low but if he were a mage and able to shapeshift he'd be able to get away clean.

 
Assuming they know how to shapeshift sure.  Also assuming nobody sees them and tries to kill them in animal form.  Also assuming they aren't vulnerable while changing (I seem to recall standing very still for quite some time to shapeshift).

JSlither wrote...
I also agree that most mages have little to no combat training and my ideas won't be very common place. At first anyway. As the war wears on the mages will realize what their strengths are and behave accordingly. In the beginning the only ones who would be using my ideas are the apostates who have been living and fighting in secret all their lives and will then train the other mages to do the same.

 
I could actually see most apostates not getting involved.  Those who've managed to successfully hide amongst the populace are unlikely to stick their necks out, and those who've lived in solitary isolation will see no need to.  The apostates have no reason to get involved because any who've survived to adulthood have managed to work around the Templars, it's not their problem.  Unless the Templars develope a means of detecting magic, then the apostates have a stake in the matter.

[Urzon]

DPSSOC wrote...

The Mages have no established source of income, nor do they have any kind of stockpile or savings, any money made by the Circles would go to the Chantry.  Yeah they can go shopping but they don't have any money.  Furthermore anyone buying supplies in the quantities the mages would need is going to draw attention, a farmer isn't just going to sell the bulk of their crop to some guy.

The Circle has an entire fraternity for that, the Lucrosians. Their whole function is to gain wealth, and i can only imagine a small percent going to the Chantry. Their second function is to gather political influence. So for every country in Thedas that holds a Circle, there are going to be friendly (or atleast allied) nobles and lords willing to help buy supplies or hide them from the templars.

Modifié par Urzon, 13 août 2012 - 10:57 .

[dragonflight288]

Urzon wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

The Mages have no established source of income, nor do they have any kind of stockpile or savings, any money made by the Circles would go to the Chantry.  Yeah they can go shopping but they don't have any money.  Furthermore anyone buying supplies in the quantities the mages would need is going to draw attention, a farmer isn't just going to sell the bulk of their crop to some guy.

The Circle has an entire fraternity for that, the Lucrosians. Their whole function is to gain wealth, and i can only imagine a small percent going to the Chantry. Their second function is to gather political influence. So for every country in Thedas that holds a Circle, there are going to be friendly (or atleast allied) nobles and lords willing to help buy supplies or hide them from the templars.

they are focused on earning money, it's true. But Godwin had to smuggle lyrium for the templars to earn money. Most of the Circle's wealth comes from the tranquil doing businesses in the towns and providing enchanting services. The mages and that fraternity in question simply have to have access to the mundanes to make money.

[GavrielKay]

Urzon wrote...
So for every country in Thedas that holds a Circle, there are going to be friendly (or atleast allied) nobles and lords willing to help buy supplies or hide them from the templars.

I could imagine that if the mages can tone down the anger and actually seek out polical allies, they would find some.  There are bound to be a few nobles who think having mages as allies could be useful.  There are likely at least a few nobles who chafe at the Chantry's power in secular areas too.

The Templars are likely to make themselves look bad by tearing through villages.  They'll be suspicious of everyone.  They will have to come up with ways to flush out mages, which isn't going to be pleasant.  And who knows what they will do to maintain their lyrium fix or worse if they fail to do so.

The mages would need to be careful to avoid open warfare which always has collateral damage.  If they stay out of villages, then the Templars will be making themselves look bad while accomplishing nothing.  The mages could even track the Templars movements and follow along behind, healing and such, garnering support. from people who've just seen the worst of the Templars.

I'm not sure the leaders we saw in Asunder can manage all that, but I think it could be done if someone tried hard enough.

[Baronesa]

Nyoka wrote...

Things like the Litany of Adralla should be actively researched and made publicly available. The Chantry should spend less money on blades and cell bars and more on grants for smart young mages interested in security and how to protect mages from demons, maybe by now they would have figured a way to prevent possession.

Instead of screaming in terror and reacting violently like animals do, the templars should consider demonic possession a practical problem that needs fixing and approach it rationally. In order to find workable solutions, expertise in magic is needed. So the thing to do is to encourage that interest. Who knows how many "Adrallas" they have right now locked in a cell? How many of them have they turned tranquil?

Totalitarian fear mongering, besides being inhumane, doesn't work as well as making the circle appealing, a place parents would want to send their kids to.

QFT!!!

Remember kids... the only chantry tha tilluminates is a burning chantry!

[Treacherous J Slither]

Baronesa wrote...

Nyoka wrote...

Things like the Litany of Adralla should be actively researched and made publicly available. The Chantry should spend less money on blades and cell bars and more on grants for smart young mages interested in security and how to protect mages from demons, maybe by now they would have figured a way to prevent possession.

Instead of screaming in terror and reacting violently like animals do, the templars should consider demonic possession a practical problem that needs fixing and approach it rationally. In order to find workable solutions, expertise in magic is needed. So the thing to do is to encourage that interest. Who knows how many "Adrallas" they have right now locked in a cell? How many of them have they turned tranquil?

Totalitarian fear mongering, besides being inhumane, doesn't work as well as making the circle appealing, a place parents would want to send their kids to.

QFT!!!

Remember kids... the only chantry tha tilluminates is a burning chantry!

LOL! Great posts the both of you!

[Treacherous J Slither]

@DPSSOC:

Nice rebuttal. Especially on the shapeshifting. Those Templars would still be dead though and really, that's what matters.

[thats1evildude]

Is there really a practical solution to a tumor-covered horror trying to gut you with its claws? In my mind, the appropriate response is beating it to death.

[Anvos]

Baronesa wrote...

Nyoka wrote...

Things like the Litany of Adralla should be actively researched and made publicly available. The Chantry should spend less money on blades and cell bars and more on grants for smart young mages interested in security and how to protect mages from demons, maybe by now they would have figured a way to prevent possession.

Instead of screaming in terror and reacting violently like animals do, the templars should consider demonic possession a practical problem that needs fixing and approach it rationally. In order to find workable solutions, expertise in magic is needed. So the thing to do is to encourage that interest. Who knows how many "Adrallas" they have right now locked in a cell? How many of them have they turned tranquil?

Totalitarian fear mongering, besides being inhumane, doesn't work as well as making the circle appealing, a place parents would want to send their kids to.

QFT!!!

Remember kids... the only chantry tha tilluminates is a burning chantry!

I disagree, an exploding chantry can also cause quite a bit of illumination.

Modifié par Anvos, 14 août 2012 - 01:30 .

[TANKMAN254]

I think the way the chantry and the templars handle the mages is very well done. Keeping them in confine space where they learn to control their magic without injuring alot people. I dont nessiserily think that is fair on the mages but its the way it has to be for the forseeable future. Of course their are going to be rebelions and the rebles are going to turn to any means to win (blood magic) but the world needs reblelions and people need to die beause if nobody died in the world of Theas then it would be in a much graver state than it is in now

ps. sorry for spelling mistakes

[Goneaviking]

TANKMAN254 wrote...

I think the way the chantry and the templars handle the mages is very well done. Keeping them in confine space where they learn to control their magic without injuring alot people. I dont nessiserily think that is fair on the mages but its the way it has to be for the forseeable future. Of course their are going to be rebelions and the rebles are going to turn to any means to win (blood magic) but the world needs reblelions and people need to die beause if nobody died in the world of Theas then it would be in a much graver state than it is in now

ps. sorry for spelling mistakes

Yes. A world without death and politically motivated violence. Can you imagine it? *shudder*

[Vinkhor]

Mages are not the real threat, but blood magic is. Locking up mages, just out of fear that they could turn to blood magic is wrong ( it`s like: "let`s send random people to jail just because there is a probability that they could become murderers, thieves etc.!!" ). Step 1: give freedom to mage circles . Step 2: ban the practice of blood magic. Step 3: abolish the templar order ( no more armies under the command of the chantry ). Step 4: create a special kind of unit, which is part of the city guard - insert your desired name here. This unit will contain experts in fighting maleficarum ( mages are most welcomed to join this newly created unit).

[The Night Haunter]

Vinkhor wrote...

Mages are not the real threat, but blood magic is. Locking up mages, just out of fear that they could turn to blood magic is wrong ( it`s like: "let`s send random people to jail just because there is a probability that they could become murderers, thieves etc.!!" ). Step 1: give freedom to mage circles . Step 2: ban the practice of blood magic. Step 3: abolish the templar order ( no more armies under the command of the chantry ). Step 4: create a special kind of unit, which is part of the city guard - insert your desired name here. This unit will contain experts in fighting maleficarum ( mages are most welcomed to join this newly created unit).

The problem is letting mages free. If a burgler steals from a normal human there is a 0% chance that human will turn into an abomination and kill sixty innocent people. If a burgler steals from a mage there is a significant chance they will turn into an abomination, kill the theif then kill everyone else in sight.

Bad mages arent the problem, what COULD happen to normal mages is the problem You see this with Ser Thrasks daughter, she is cornered and her fear allows a demon to possess her. If she was in a circle she would have been safe and any innocents nearby would have been safe (they were safe in this instance because Hawke was there, but Hawke cant be everywhere).

If Mages were free this would be common, because theives cant always tell who is a mage and who isnt. Stupid thieves might even target mages. Suppose a mage falls off a ladder and hits his head, maybe that is enough to allow a demon to possess a weaker willed mage. Sad as it is Mages arent normal people. The Circles should be far less strict than they are, but the Circles are necessary.

[Urzon]

ghostmessiah202 wrote...

The problem is letting mages free. If a burgler steals from a normal human there is a 0% chance that human will turn into an abomination and kill sixty innocent people. If a burgler steals from a mage there is a significant chance they will turn into an abomination, kill the theif then kill everyone else in sight.

Bad mages arent the problem, what COULD happen to normal mages is the problem You see this with Ser Thrasks daughter, she is cornered and her fear allows a demon to possess her. If she was in a circle she would have been safe and any innocents nearby would have been safe (they were safe in this instance because Hawke was there, but Hawke cant be everywhere).

If Mages were free this would be common, because theives cant always tell who is a mage and who isnt. Stupid thieves might even target mages. Suppose a mage falls off a ladder and hits his head, maybe that is enough to allow a demon to possess a weaker willed mage. Sad as it is Mages arent normal people. The Circles should be far less strict than they are, but the Circles are necessary.

I dislike DA2 for many reasons, but a major one was putting it into people's head that anger/scared mage = 100% abomination.

A mage being angry or scared doesn't mean they can instantly snap and turn into an abomination. For a demon to get a chance to possess a mage, they either need to be in the Fade (meet when the mage in asleep), or the demon needs to be in the physical realm (either sundered from the Fade or possessing something else already).

That means unless a mage already has a deal or connection with a demon already, they just can't suddenly mutate into an abomination, and they procede to go on the rampage when they stub their toe or something threatening comes their way.

While I agree that abominations are a major threat to the people of Thedas, I don't agree that all mages have a chance to spontaneously abominate if they are having a bad day, or even if there is a threat on their life.

Modifié par Urzon, 24 août 2012 - 05:24 .

[Vinkhor]

ghostmessiah202 wrote...

The problem is letting mages free. If a burgler steals from a normal human there is a 0% chance that human will turn into an abomination and kill sixty innocent people. If a burgler steals from a mage there is a significant chance they will turn into an abomination, kill the theif then kill everyone else in sight.

Bad mages arent the problem, what COULD happen to normal mages is the problem You see this with Ser Thrasks daughter, she is cornered and her fear allows a demon to possess her. If she was in a circle she would have been safe and any innocents nearby would have been safe (they were safe in this instance because Hawke was there, but Hawke cant be everywhere).

If Mages were free this would be common, because theives cant always tell who is a mage and who isnt. Stupid thieves might even target mages. Suppose a mage falls off a ladder and hits his head, maybe that is enough to allow a demon to possess a weaker willed mage. Sad as it is Mages arent normal people. The Circles should be far less strict than they are, but the Circles are necessary.

The Circles are necessary, i agree with you, ..but the circle should not function as a prison, guarded by armed men,  it should only function as a temporary school.  Mages possess real power. This power can be used for both good or evil. The mages must be educated and be aware of the danger that blood magic is. To achive this: ban the blood magic through law. Any decent mage knows that blood magic is dangerous. Let the mages live their life in peace, they could be very useful(ouh, how i would love to have a healer mage in my town).  Only those who become a maleficarum should be dealt with.

Now, about the thing that a scared mage will suddenly turn into an abomination. I don`t think this is true. You give the example with what happened to Sir Thrasks daugther. There could be other reasons of why she turned into an abomination: she wasn`t in the circle, so she lacked any kind of knowledge about demons and how to resist their influence (no mage teachers, no acces to books). Also, she could have been a blood mage, we can`t know for sure that she wasn`t one. Almost all the crazed mages i`ve seen in DA were blood mages. Is not that simple for a demon to possess a mage..... is not something like: scared mage..POOF abomination! The demon needs to trick the mage`s mind first, the mage somehow must accept the demon proposal and that takes time.

The oppression of the templars actually make things worst, the lack of freedom for mages will only increase the number of blood mages , who will appeal to this kind of magic as an ultimate chance, ...out of desperation, like the first enchanter Orsino did. Put yourself a litle in their shoes. It`s already hard to fight a demon`s influence as it is. If we add templar swords to mages necks it will only make things worst.

And another point here, let`s not forget the new element that DA2 brings: not only mages can be prey to demons, but also....normal people!!!(the example with possessed templars). What should be done in this case? circles for normal people guarded by templars?

And as an ultimate argument: we know that only a little number of total mages become a real danger (tevinter imperium is an exeption because there blood magic is not forbidden and i propose, as a solution, to edict a law to ban it). And, only a few normal people become....murderers. So, let`s prevent crimes by sending to jail a lot of people ...no, not a lot, let`s send them all to jail!!!... just because some of them could be a murderer in the future! Does this sound right to you? Is this a good solution? I think it`s, clearly, only a recipe for disaster.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Urzon wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Flesh eating diseases, hurricanes, earthquakes and volcanos are also natural phenomenons.
If we let nature decide what the world should be like, we would still be leaving in caves.

Nature decided that there would be: flesh eating diseases, earthquakes, hurricanes, volcanos, tornadoes, floods, forest fires, droughts, blizzards, and plagues. Yet people still aren't living in caves....

Why?

Because we adapted to said natural phenomenons.

And locking mages up IS adaptation.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Nizaris1 wrote...
Like these mages, they are born naturally as natural phenomenon...the nature demand they exist as they are to be a part of nature. It is the way it should be.

Teh nature demands cancer exist. Who are you to remove it from your body? Leave it there to grow!

Dogs and cats are born with fangs and claws, dogs can kill people, but not all dogs kill people. You muzzle some dogs, but do you muzzle ALL dogs? You put down some dogs because they are too dangerous, wild, but do you put down ALL dogs?

Do you understand now?

There is no need to muzzle or put to sleep all dogs. Dogs can be dangerous, but rarely - if ever - do they ever do more than draw blood. Especialyl smaller dogs. They aren't a mortal danger or a big danger.
When Dogs can take out an entire nighborhood wihout any warning THEN we can talk.

Do YOU understand now?

Human have lived throughout history going through all the dangers nature provide...poisonous snakes, tigers, lions, changing climate, famine, wild bears...ect ect ect...but human endure, human survive...because human is a part of nature.

What is the different with another natural product of being that are mages?

Yeah and humans fight agaisnt anything that threatens them.
Wild beats? We kill them.
Natural dissaster? We try to prevent them, predict them and built safer houses to survive them.
Deseases? We use cures that kill bacteria/viruses and use quarantene.

Humans endure... but that is beside the point.