278 réponses à ce sujet

[Treacherous J Slither]

It's this simple:

Are mages more of a threat or a resource?

I say resource.

How many mages become abominations/commit atrocities? A small percentage of the entire world wide population of mages.

How many mages can learn a simple Heal spell? Every single one of them.

Resources should be utilized. Destroying a great resource because of a small threat is foolish.

Take electricity as an example. People die from electrocution all the time. In skilled trades, electricians have one of the highest death rates. Should mankind ban the use of electricity because it's potentially harmful despite all of it's obvious benefits?

Should a mage who can heal just about any affliction/injury with a wave of his hand be imprisoned because he might commit a crime?

Heck, the solution is even simpler than all of this stuff I just wrote:

Would you want someone that is much more powerful than you to be your enemy or your friend?

[General User]

JSlither wrote...

Are mages more of a threat or a resource?

I say resource.

A resource of course.   The problem there is that a mage's use as a resource deosn't really lessen the severity of the threat they represent.

JSlither wrote...

How many mages become abominations/commit atrocities? A small percentage of the entire world wide population of mages.

How many mages can learn a simple Heal spell? Every single one of them.

How many mages will fall somewhere in between?  Neither devils nor Angels but just Men, complete with all the fallibility that implies except with the power to command the forces nature in the palms of their hands and malevolent demons hounding their steps.

JSlither wrote...

Resources should be utilized. Destroying a great resource because of a small threat is foolish.

Individual mages are only incidentally destroyed by the Circle.  The purpose of the Circle is to control mages and magic.

JSlither wrote...

Take electricity as an example. People die from electrocution all the time. In skilled trades, electricians have one of the highest death rates. Should mankind ban the use of electricity because it's potentially harmful despite all of it's obvious benefits?

What mankind should do (through their local governments) is regulate dangerous professions to insure that only qualified persons take part and that general safety guidelines are adhered to, and exact penalties against those who do not comply.

JSlither wrote...

Should a mage who can heal just about any affliction/injury with a wave of his hand be imprisoned because he might commit a crime?

He should be quarantined because of the danger his magic represents no matter what he might choose to do with it.

[Xilizhra]

Individual mages are only incidentally destroyed by the Circle. The purpose of the Circle is to control mages and magic.

Well, the templars are no longer just "incidentally" destroying them now.

What mankind should do (through their local governments) is regulate dangerous professions to insure that only qualified persons take part and that general safety guidelines are adhered to, and exact penalties against those who do not comply.

This being the purpose of apprenticeship.

He should be quarantined because of the danger his magic represents no matter what he might choose to do with it.

"Quarantine" may have several different meanings here.

[General User]

Xilizhra wrote...

Well, the templars are no longer just "incidentally" destroying them now.

Indeed.  And of course, they've left the Circle and the Chantry themselves in order to do so.

Xilizhra wrote...

This being the purpose of apprenticeship.

Apprenticeship is a good idea, and seems to work well enough for the dalish for what it's worth.  Of course, human society is far larger and more complex, so an oversight body would still be required in order to enforce compliance and standards.

Xilizhra wrote...

"Quarantine" may have several different meanings here.

I meant it in the sense of a mandatory isolation/semi-isolation to ensure the safety of others.

Modifié par General User, 07 août 2012 - 01:22 .

[LobselVith8]

If the OP needed to see why the pro-mage and pro-templar factions can't reach a compromise, I think this discussion has shown why. The ideologies between people who agree with the templar point of view can't be reconciled with the people who think that mages deserve autonomy from the Chantry and the Order of Templars. The templars fighting to dominate mages and the mages fighting for their freedom can't reach a compromise when they want the exact opposite of the other.

[GavrielKay]

LobselVith8 wrote...
The ideologies between people who agree with the templar point of view can't be reconciled with the people who think that mages deserve autonomy from the Chantry and the Order of Templars.

I think it's a simple difference of people who think the majority are entitled to commit mass incarceration (and occasionally murder) in order to feel safer and those who think everyone, even someone potentially dangerous, has rights that cannot be taken away due to fear alone.

[KainD]

The society is ill because of the though that needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. Majority will be happy only then when each minority will be taken into account as best as possible, for majority is made up of minorities.

Other than that, I just think that people who think it's ok to lock other people up for their safety BEFORE they have done anything wrong are extremely selfish.

If mages were real I would risk MY life for mages to live freely like any other people, personally I would take that risk. This is the same reason I chose Morinth in ME2 over Samara, because she was punished BEFORE she did anything wrong.

I play mages a lot and I imagine myself in place of one, and it's pretty hard to be a good mage like Bethany, because not all people can be kind to those that are not being kind to them in return. When people are dividing regular people and mages and treating mages as a threat and without respect, then the mages will do the same, and then you can't blame them anymore. A whole bunch of blood mages that hipnotize other people and kill them, and they can't even be blamed for what they are doing, it's a perfectly healthy attitude that the society has created. 

If I was a mage and would be asked to go to a circle for the rest of my life, I wouldn't even TRY to be carring towards other people I wouldn't even feel bad about using blood magic and blasting people in the face with fireballs, not.. one.. bit. What comes around goes around. 

Modifié par KainD, 07 août 2012 - 07:10 .

[GavrielKay]

Nizaris1 wrote...
USA citizen don't even realized living surrounded by nuclear submarines with nuclear warhead missiles in their ocean...

Don't assume US citizens do or don't know something.  There are millions of us and generalizing doesn't work.

Anyway, while I understand your point, I think the popular counterpoint is that mages are supposed to be able to be possessed even if they don't want to.  Personally, I think the game utterly fails to back up this lore.  Also, while I'm too lazy to look it up, I read recently that David Gaider had backed off that a bit saying mages can't be forcibly possessed against their will, but can be tricked, cajoled, bribed and otherwise goaded into giving in to the demon.

If mages were actually portrayed in game as being what the Chantry and the lore says, then there would be more substance to the argument that it is simply too dangerous to allow any mage to have freedom.  But, as I said, the game doesn't back tihs up. 

We see free mages all over:  Tevinter has evil blood mages running the place.  The Dalish clans are governed by mages.  The Rivaini revere their seers.  The mage collective operates all around Ferelden at least.  None of those places appear to have undo problems with abominations.  The Chantry violate their own lore by granting more liberty to certain mages - which shouldn't be possible if mages truly are ticking time bombs.

The games present plenty of evidence that the Chantry's harsh behavior causes problems (Connor kept secret by his mother, Meredith's sister kept secret by her parents...) but little evidence that they do this out of necessity.  Even the codex explaining the creation of the circles doesn't say they were trying to solve an emergency...  it was just a compromise.

Modifié par GavrielKay, 07 août 2012 - 08:26 .

[CelestJP]

the Chantry is a twisted perversion of andraste's teaching like the real church they claim to speak for the maker but how can anyone know for sure their templar order has a long history of abuse to mages they act more like the Gestapo there is also some ingame information hinting that Andraste her self may have been a Mage I'm sure she would not want her fellow mages if true so unjustly treated she waged war on the Tevinter Imperium because they used their magics only for Evil which is where the part Magic should serve man and not rule over him most likely came from but it could also be a miss understanding of what Andraste meant it could simply mean that Mages should not be allowed to control others through blood magic but in the end Oppression is wrong what the Chantry has done to the mages is nothing short of Enslavement they are no better then the Tevinter Imperium then the fact that Templar's them self use magic I don't care what the novels say Game canon is the only canon I care about If i was to put 1000 into Magic and Use Smith on a Npc they would die from it regardless if they was mages or not the very fact that Smith can be influenced by Spell Power ...... makes you wonder you might claim but Templars need Lyrium to use their abilties but the fact is that they don't the Chantry enslaves even their own Templars with that lie

when people speak of the mage / templar war this song comes to mind

Modifié par CelestJP, 07 août 2012 - 10:49 .

[DPSSOC]

Nizaris1 wrote...

and actually, there is solution for Blood Magic Mind Domination



Funnily, they never take a hint to teach this spell to everyone, they put it into the Circle storeroom, Wayne talk about it but she herself don't know the spell

The problem with the Litany is unless you know somebody's under mind control or someone's attempting mind control, it's useless unless you have people just standing around reciting it day and night.  Might give the Chanters something to do since the Chanters boards seem to be going out of use and people just wait for nosy people to ask what their problem is nowadays, but I don't think we have enough.

[ShadowLordXII]

I'll say that this solution is much better than the current one.

After all: Imprisoning an entire demographic of people because of few of them can be enemies of the state is morally and ethically wrong and is a waste of resources.

As for the belief that it would lead to more people dying due to less of a reign on blood magic, the current solution already allows room for blood magic incidents to happen. In fact, as DA2 pointed out, the current structure partially encourages it.

Due to Chantry dominance in Thedas, the templars operating as Chantry agents possess absolute power over the mages under their charge. The law says that mages can't be tranquiled if they've passed their harrowing, but that doesn't stop it from happening anyway and there is no repercussion for the perpetrators. Furthermore, Chantry propaganda (whether valid or not) encourages the people towards the templar's way of thinking, leaving some mages being pushed further towards hopelessness.

Under these circumstances, more mages have felt compelled to study blood magic or another forbidden art as a means of escaping their oppressive situation. Some do it in search of power, but most do so as ensured security. As we saw from Kirkwall, this just led to the escalation that resulted in the Mage-Templar War.

A society that has enough trust in it's mages to allow them to live their own lives with moderated tutoring is a safer society for both mages and the people around them. Most won't want to turn to blood magic or even use it for dark purposes if they had it because they won't feel pressure into doing so. Sure, there will still be crazies or deranged monsters who abuse their magic for whatever reason and use it to harm others...but they will be far and in between compared to the current system.

[Anvos]

Eh, I don't go as far as OP, but he is somewhat close to my ideas on the issue (other than burning the chantry to the ground). The circles should still exist, but rather reformed into a mandatory academy system free from the chantry where after you pass your harrowing and have completed a certain level of magical proficency your allowed to leave and have the same rights as anybody else, with the exception that every x years there is a mandatory reunion of your class.


Also the claim that society wouldn't gain from free mages is absolutely absurd. Just about every settlement would benefit from a resident healer mage. Similar to healer the benefits of resident elementalist would be quite aparent. Even combat focused mages would still be highly useful for every town guard/militia to have a couple mages among them.   Also since mages all get a decent education, mages could also found schools in settlements to spread basic education to the people.

Modifié par Anvos, 08 août 2012 - 05:05 .

[dragonflight288]

ShadowLordXII wrote...

I'll say that this solution is much better than the current one.

After all: Imprisoning an entire demographic of people because of few of them can be enemies of the state is morally and ethically wrong and is a waste of resources.

As for the belief that it would lead to more people dying due to less of a reign on blood magic, the current solution already allows room for blood magic incidents to happen. In fact, as DA2 pointed out, the current structure partially encourages it.

Due to Chantry dominance in Thedas, the templars operating as Chantry agents possess absolute power over the mages under their charge. The law says that mages can't be tranquiled if they've passed their harrowing, but that doesn't stop it from happening anyway and there is no repercussion for the perpetrators. Furthermore, Chantry propaganda (whether valid or not) encourages the people towards the templar's way of thinking, leaving some mages being pushed further towards hopelessness.

Under these circumstances, more mages have felt compelled to study blood magic or another forbidden art as a means of escaping their oppressive situation. Some do it in search of power, but most do so as ensured security. As we saw from Kirkwall, this just led to the escalation that resulted in the Mage-Templar War.

A society that has enough trust in it's mages to allow them to live their own lives with moderated tutoring is a safer society for both mages and the people around them. Most won't want to turn to blood magic or even use it for dark purposes if they had it because they won't feel pressure into doing so. Sure, there will still be crazies or deranged monsters who abuse their magic for whatever reason and use it to harm others...but they will be far and in between compared to the current system.

Unfortunately, there are some templar supporters who feel that the risk of even one mage going rogue or turning into an abomination presents too great a danger, so they feel it's better to lock up the entire demographic because they don't trust the mages to act as good people all the time. I have debated templar supporters who won't accept any compromise that allows mages to live outside the circle. Anything that allows mages more rights than they currently have must be an attack on templars and the Chantry, because mages can't be trusted.

Or at least that's the attitude I understand they have.

[brushyourteeth]

Rojahar wrote...

It's the same argument from both sides. "Templars will abuse and rape mages! One victim is too many!" "Mages will abuse their powers to harm innocents! One victim is too many!"

 
True 'nuff.

[1483749283]

It's simple: magic will simply end as lyrium, which is the maker's blood, is reconstituted into the maker, bringing him back to life, and as he departs he severs the connection between the fade and the real world, thus ending the darkspawn cycle.

[GavrielKay]

Nizaris1 wrote...
While Uldred rebel, turn out to be there are a lot of blood mages in the Circle. Pride Demon almost destroy the tower before Right of Anulment arrive. Therefore, Templar is useless. If not the warden is there at the moment, the Templar and all the Circle inhabitants dead.

Why they become useless? Because they put Lithany of Andralla silently inside the storeroom! They don't realize that there are a lot of blood mages in the Circle already!

I've always thought the Rite of Annulment was most abhorrent because it basically says, we give up, we don't even care if some mages can still be rescued, we're just going to kill every one of them.  I don't understand why it would ever be justifiable to not even try to save those mages who've somehow remained out of the demon's clutches.  We see in DA2 that it is possible to distinguish a possessed mage by non-lethal attack, which provokes the demon to defend itself.

And I completely agree that there's something very fishy about the Chantry keeping the Litany relatively secret.  Having a widely published litany that anyone could recite to protect themselves against mind control and possession would certainly undermine the Chantry's current role as protector of the masses and jailors of those supposedly way too dangerous mages.

[CelestJP]

the templars are pretty useless ingame anyway Marian can take on 15 Templars at the same time and they can't do anything to her she will just freeze and blow them up but maybe that's the main character super power or something because all the other mages in DA 2 at the end seemed to panicking at the though of the templars attacking while Hawke is killing them in the droves heck they are so afraid of you in the end they don't even dare attack

[brushyourteeth]

CelestJP wrote...

the templars are pretty useless ingame anyway Marian can take on 15 Templars at the same time and they can't do anything to her she will just freeze and blow them up but maybe that's the main character super power or something because all the other mages in DA 2 at the end seemed to panicking at the though of the templars attacking while Hawke is killing them in the droves heck they are so afraid of you in the end they don't even dare attack

She can do the same thing to a group of abominations, which I think was the OP's point -- one single abomination can destroy a village and kill dozens (or more) innocent people. This is one of the reasons so many players are hacked off at the Chantry -- we've never seen anything like what they describe when it comes to an abomination being a serious, serious threat. It seems to me that one good cutscene in either of the last two games showing what one can do (even to Templars) would make us go "Oh. Yeah, that's bad."

One scuffle with an abomination should be almost as big a deal as fighting a dragon. It should be one tough boss battle.