278 réponses à ce sujet

[GavrielKay]

MisterJB wrote...
Right now, mages in Andrastian societies fight for freedom. Give it to them and they will want more and more until they are fighting for a magocracy.

I see no proof of that.  I guess we'll see what the writers come up with.

[Xilizhra]

Mages are sheltered. They live their entire lives in the protective embrace of the chantry, like children living in a strict household or boarding school. They don't know what it is to struggle for food and shelter, because they haven't lived in the real world. They don't know what it is to be subject to the predation of criminals and kings alike, because they haven't lived in the real world. The templars and the circle are all that they know, and the flaws in these things seem so dramatic and important because they have nothing else to compare it to. The mages are like a child who thinks that his mother is cruel and hateful because she refuses to buy him the icecream that he wants. That petty definition of suffering seems to them to be the worst thing imaginable. Not because it is, but because they are so thoroughly sheltered that they don't know better.

This particular argument is the one that's enraging me enough to lose any desire to continue this debate or put further thought into it, just so you know. Either you'll be ignored from now on or responded to by someone with more patience for the "you don't know what real problems are" bull**** than I do.

However, there's a codex entry talking about Antiva's and Orlais' slavery (although they pretend it doesn't exist in Orlais).

[Goneaviking]

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]Goneaviking wrote...
Except there's no more reason not to be vigilant than with any other group.[/quote]
Yes, there is. Mages are absurdly more dangerous than normal people due to their natural advantage of being able to shape reality with their mind.
[/quote]
Which doesn't actually contradict what I said. "There's no more reason not to be vigilant" = "No reason to be less vigilant"

[quote]
That is what the templars are for.
If you keep the mages contained, you lessen the chance of a common guard having to deal with them.[/quote]

The downside is that segregating and incarcerating them increases the likelihood of resistance to any kind of authority. The only upside they have to cooperate is that they have less chance of being lobotomised or executed. Which as Kirkwall showed us is still no sure bet.

[quote]
The "us vs them" mentality is a staple of human condition. We all have it and it's not going anywhere.  Even in these forums, we regularly engange in conflict that pits Pro-Templars vs Pro-Mages.

If mages are free, the social separation between them and mundanes will still exist. It will simply be less obvious.
[/quote]

No one's arguing that it would be utopian solution. Mages would still need to be supervised as par for the course; the differences between capabilities would breed resentments from some quarters; the cultural hangover of the Tevinter Imperium's legendary rule and relgious tension concerning their status the Maker's plan.

But it's a workable solution and one that doesn't inherently punish people for being born.

[quote]"Aberrant behaviour" is not something obvious or serial killers would be a lot easier to identify.
Encouraging mages to take part in the community simply exposes innocent victims to dangers while slowing down templar response.[/quote]

Indeed it is difficult to spot. But if you don't have a baseline for healthy behaviour all of their behaviour appears suspect.

Participation in the community gives people and groups a stake in their success and preservation. It's no sure thing, there are always going to be people that don't fit and who will take advantage, but taking a default stance that one group of people can't be trusted is not a sustainable stance for any society that claims to value justice.

[quote]
I am against common citizens having acess to firearms.
And altough many western countries allow their citizens to own them, there are still limits. A common citizen can't own a tank or uranium because these things are incredibly dangerous.
Unfortunately, mages are born with this type of firepower as well as inherent danger and it can't be removed.[/quote]

I am in favour of sensible gun control as well. My point is more that we live in a world where people choose to live with the risk rather than taking measures to eliminate, or limit, that risk. It's not a viable possibility to eliminate mages abilities, but it's a comparable risk to allowing easy access to assault rifles and automatic weaponry. Actually, given the relative scarcity of mages they conceivably pose a smaller risk.

[quote]
[quote]Which is without touching on the morality of keeping them locked up for the way they were born. If they're de facto criminals based on their identity it may be more merciful and economical just to kill them, rather than to subject them to the psyche altering trauma of perpetual incarceration.[/quote]
That can't be done because mages are a resource. They are the nuclear power of Thedas, dangerous but still needed.[/quote]

Apparent necessity doesn't eliminate the inherent immorality of the current solution.


[/quote][quote]If they're only allowed to leave the tower to perform specific tasks, which appears to be the case, then the mages in effect form Thedas' slave caste. Deprived of freedom and only permitted to perform tasks that conform to the will of their masters.
[/quote]
Think of it instead as a way of paying for the cost of mantaining them. They do live in a luxurious tower, are clothed and fed.[/quote]

A well treated slave is still a slave. They don't have the option of not doing what they're told, or of leaving to pursue their own interests. Arguments can be made to support their enslavement, but if they don't acknowledge that they ARE slaves then they're false arguments.

[/quote]

[MisterJB]

Goneaviking wrote...
Which doesn't actually contradict what I said. "There's no more reason not to be vigilant" = "No reason to be less vigilant"

You're right.
I will make it clearer. The natural advantage mages possess, magic, makes them much more inherently dangerous than mundanes. As such, to ensure the safety of the people, special measures must be taken that do not apply to the common man.
Isolation, containment, constant scrutiny.

The downside is that segregating and incarcerating them increases the likelihood of resistance to any kind of authority. The only upside they have to cooperate is that they have less chance of being lobotomised or executed. Which as Kirkwall showed us is still no sure bet.

Maybe so but I find it hard to believe that groups of people whose natural abilities makes them considerably hard to punish for transgression would be interested in cooperation with common people rather than domination.

No one's arguing that it would be utopian solution. Mages would still need to be supervised as par for the course; the differences between capabilities would breed resentments from some quarters; the cultural hangover of the Tevinter Imperium's legendary rule and relgious tension concerning their status the Maker's plan.

But it's a workable solution and one that doesn't inherently punish people for being born.

It's less safer than the current Circle system and so, I don't support it.

Indeed it is difficult to spot. But if you don't have a baseline for healthy behaviour all of their behaviour appears suspect.

This does not preclude the possibility of many bloodmage simply appearing to be normal.
It's hard enough to catch mundane serial killers in our mordern world where you can walk down a street without someone taking your picture. In Thedas, catching a serial killed blood mage would be near impossible.

Participation in the community gives people and groups a stake in their success and preservation. It's no sure thing, there are always going to be people that don't fit and who will take advantage, but taking a default stance that one group of people can't be trusted is not a sustainable stance for any society that claims to value justice.

There are, however, many different ways of looking at a community. Tevinter is a community. The simple fact mages are interested in the survival and growth of a community does not preclude the possibility of them abusing their powers.
It seems to me that you place moral values like "justice" over practical values like "my neighbour can snap his fingers and immolate me on the spot just because he had a bad day". Allowing mages freedom presents an enormous risk to the population of Thedas.

I am in favour of sensible gun control as well. My point is more that we live in a world where people choose to live with the risk rather than taking measures to eliminate, or limit, that risk. It's not a viable possibility to eliminate mages abilities, but it's a comparable risk to allowing easy access to assault rifles and automatic weaponry. Actually, given the relative scarcity of mages they conceivably pose a smaller risk.

No, because of two factors.
First, the destructive capabilities of magic surpass that of any gun a common citizen can obtain.
Second, mages are dangerous for reasons beyond their morals. Magic is extremely hard to control (granted, so are guns) and they are constantly preyed upon by demons and even the noblest mages can sucumb.

Apparent necessity doesn't eliminate the inherent immorality of the current solution.

Safety should take precedence over morality.

A well treated slave is still a slave. They don't have the option of not doing what they're told, or of leaving to pursue their own interests. Arguments can be made to support their enslavement, but if they don't acknowledge that they ARE slaves then they're false arguments.

Mages are not free, no and most lack freedom due to events they played no role in.
We can call that slavery but that is merely a word. There are many other things to fear in the world of Thedas beyond words. Like the guy who can slit his wrists and force you to cannibalize your family for kicks.

Modifié par MisterJB, 10 août 2012 - 08:11 .

[LobselVith8]

MisterJB wrote...

Mages are not free, no and most lack freedom due to events they had a role in.

Are you talking about Tevinter? Because many of the people living in Andrastian society are the descendants of the slaves who rebelled against the Imperium - under the leadership of Andraste (who is speculated to be a mage by one source) and Shartan (who likely had mages, given how magical ability seems to be passed down by lineage, as we see with Isolde, Hawke, and Lanaya's explanation about the Keepers and the Firsts).

MisterJB wrote...

We can call that slavery but that is merely a word.

A word used by Aldenon the Great, Anders, and a pro-mage Hawke to describe the Chantry controlled Circles.

MisterJB wrote...

There are many other things to fear in the world of Thedas beyond words.

Like a death squad of templars murdering civilians under the auspices of Knight-Commander Meredith?

[MisterJB]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Are you talking about Tevinter? Because many of the people living in Andrastian society are the descendants of the slaves who rebelled against the Imperium - under the leadership of Andraste (who is speculated to be a mage by one source) and Shartan (who likely had mages, given how magical ability seems to be passed down by lineage, as we see with Isolde, Hawke, and Lanaya's explanation about the Keepers and the Firsts).

My mistake. I actually meant that most mages are incarcerated not because of what they did but because of what they might do.
But it would be irresponsible to let Joe the Plumber just keep a nuclear reactor in his garage. He is a danger to himself and others.

A word used by Aldenon the Great, Anders, and a pro-mage Hawke to describe the Chantry controlled Circles.

Aldenon was a mage and Anders is an Abomination. Their opinions are, understandably, biased.

Like a death squad of templars murdering civilians under the auspices of Knight-Commander Meredith?

Or an evil mage. Or an Abomination. Or just a mage who can't control his power.

[MisterJB]

"But by accident of birth, those mages would be free to live, love, and die as they choose. And if they choose to be Magisters, let us hope Fereldens are flame proof."

[Urzon]

MisterJB wrote...
My mistake. I actually meant that most mages are incarcerated not because of what they did but because of what they might do.

Ya, because that is a much better reason to prosecute someone, for what they might do in the future. There is nothing flawed about that at all....

/sarcasm

Since most mages come into the Circle at a very young age, it must be fun explaining that to 5-10 year olds. They were taken from their homes, friends. and family (and thrown into a totally unknown place with complete strangers and constant guards), because they might turn into bloodthirsty monsters or murderous psychopaths in the future.

Modifié par Urzon, 10 août 2012 - 09:10 .

[MisterJB]

Of course, it's a much better idea to just let people who can turn others into charcoal with a tought and are prone to attract demons roam free. I'm sure no one will get hurt.

And even if they do, who cares about mundanes? Mages, now those are the people who matter.

[Urzon]

Excellent!

Though to be fair, the charcoal-bringing hordes of abominations (that will 100% happen when the mages gain freedom) will only kill a small portion of the population at large. Since that is only a minority compared to the large Thedasian population, it can just be written off as a "safety expense".

Seriously...

Who cares what happens to a minority, as long as the majority is safe. Because they're the only people who matter!

Modifié par Urzon, 10 août 2012 - 09:31 .

[MisterJB]

The living will envy the dead once this Mage Rebellion is over.
As if you need every nuclear reactor in the world to explode in order to justify safety measures.

How many can a mage kill, on average, with a single spell? And you would have us risk all of these lives just so a group of people can choose to not live in a luxurious tower.

[Urzon]

Templar Motto: "The Ends Justify the Means."

[MisterJB]

Your point being?

[Urzon]

My point being, that is what the whole templar (and their supporters) viewpoints boils down to: "The Ends Justify the Means".

While most templars could see what they are doing to the mages as bad, they don't care in the end, because they are keeping the "average" people safe. The templars will do whatever it takes to innocent people to protect the common folk.

They judge them for crimes they might do...

They drag them away from their homes as children...

They imprison them for the rest of their lives...

They have them watched night and day...

They throw them to demons to test them...

Try and escape, and you get severely punished...

Try and escape or fight back to often, death...

They do all these horrible things and more, to innocent mages, for the safety of the majority.

There is a reason why templars are hired religious fever and not just skill or intelligence. It's because the fanatic won't question orders, since they come from the Maker himself. The average man, on the other hand, might question why they have to do such things, to protect themselves from a slight possiblity of a threat in the future.

Modifié par Urzon, 10 août 2012 - 11:33 .

[Rayndorn]

 The circle should become HOGWARTS!  

Seriously though, I believe that the circle should become more of a school for mages rather than a life imprisonment. It's perfectly reasonable to expect a person. who has been locked away for their entire life just for being born who they are to want freedom. Anders had the right idea, but by blowing up the chantry he effectively assisted in making mages even more feared. Destroying holy ground and killing hundreds of innocent faithful? That will stain the plight of magic for ages to come. 

I'm personally torn between the two, though. I believe magic should be regulated somewhat, and after witnessing the chantry being obliterated, IRL I would probably do a Sebastian (Be so mortified and shocked that I would demand retribution). The Templars have good goals, but bad methods. I almost feel sorry for meredith;

(To Orsino) "It breaks my heart to do it, but we must be vigilant. If you cannot tell me a better way, do not brand me a tyrant!" 

Yet that scene of the templars breaching the Gallows and cutting down all those young mages really gets to me. I've considered siding with the templars more than once, but at the actual moment of decision I always side with the mages. 

[Xilizhra]

MisterJB wrote...

The living will envy the dead once this Mage Rebellion is over.

Such would be narratively unsatisfying and possibly leading to Gaider being crucified by an angry mob. The world will either improve after the mage rebellion, or change in some other way that'll ensure that the whole thing wasn't a negative waste of time. You'll never get to see your dreams of oppression come to fruition, I fear.

[Goneaviking]

Once you get to the point where you're willing to jettison the rights of one group based on the assumption it's better for everyone else you've set in place a precedent.

Is it any wonder that elves can't get a leg up in Templar-tolerant societies?

They tried to set up their own separatist nation once, clearly we can't trust them to be loyal now. Better to cluster them into their isolated little ghettoes alienages and keep them out of sight so they don't disturb their betters.

[LobselVith8]

MisterJB wrote...

"But by accident of birth, those mages would be free to live, love, and die as they choose. And if they choose to be Magisters, let us hope Fereldens are flame proof."

Aldenon the Great wanted to create a kingdom of equals. He was opposed to a tyrannical system that he saw as slavery.

[The Hierophant]

LobselVith8 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

"But by accident of birth, those mages would be free to live, love, and die as they choose. And if they choose to be Magisters, let us hope Fereldens are flame proof."

Aldenon the Great wanted to create a kingdom of equals. He was opposed to a tyrannical system that he saw as slavery.

Unless the writers change the dark fantasy of DA into unicorns, sunshine, and rainbows, i don't see Aldenon's pipe dream coming true. So far the templars were the only authority mages feared or listened to before the war. If the mages defeat the templars, there would be no reason for them to adhere to the laws of  the mundanes, as there is no one around to oppose them. Unlike the other fantasy stories where the mages were rare, not prone to possession, and common sense/compromise is the norm, i just don't see things going well for Thedas if the templar order is destroyed.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 10 août 2012 - 03:52 .

[Urzon]

 Technically, didn't the Templar order kinda dissolve itself after Asunder? Though, I'm not sure if they reverted back into the Inquisition or not. I'm best guess is that while the Inquisition is terrorizing the countryside, the Chantry loyal Templar are going to try and rebuild the Order (hopefully for the better).

The mages are going to have the same problem. The Circles are going to want to get plans together for the future, only for some blood mages to screw that up by attacking a town or city.

Both sides will want peace with the least amount of bloodshed, but the extremes of those side won't allow that to happen.

[SeptimusMagistos]

MisterJB wrote...

Of course, it's a much better idea to just let people who can turn others into charcoal with a tought and are prone to attract demons roam free. I'm sure no one will get hurt.

And even if they do, who cares about mundanes? Mages, now those are the people who matter.

Innocent until proven guilty.

A mage who abuses his power should be punished. A mage who does not should be free.

It's really that simple.

[GavrielKay]

MisterJB wrote...
You're right.
I will make it clearer. The natural advantage mages possess, magic, makes them much more inherently dangerous than mundanes. As such, to ensure the safety of the people, special measures must be taken that do not apply to the common man.
Isolation, containment, constant scrutiny.

This same argument can be used to justify the Tevinter mages enslaving mundanes and locking them down.  After all, mundanes possess a natural advantage of greater numbers.  Those numbers mean that mudanes can overrun mages and kill even the most powerful.  Because mundanes lack magic, they will rely on stealth and cunning - sneaking up on unsuspecting mages and killing them in their sleep.  We MUST control the mundanes or they will use their natural advantage of numbers to destroy the society the mages have built.  See, just look at the rest of Thedas where the munanes are using their numbers to imprison the mages and deny their basic rights.

Once fear is all you need to justify your actions, a lot of horrible things can be done.

Even if the Chantry was "morally right" to protect the masses from the few - it would come with a huge responsibility.  Like modern quarantine it should be used only when there is no alternative.  And alternatives should be constantly sought and tested.  We don't quarantine folks and then clap our hands and declare the problem solved.  We search for a cure.  We endlessly test the subjects to see if they are still contagious.

Whether or not the circle system had been the right choice for everyone at the time it was implemented, it became morally wrong as soon as the Chantry threw up its hands in victory and quit looking for any way that the situation could be improved.  When they kept the Litany of Adralla secret they failed.  When they prevented research into blood magic and demons they failed.  Every time they suppressed research into how mages could safely re-integrate into society they failed to continue to justify their own drastic solution.  And finally when they didn't notice that the Templar arm had become wholeheartedly anti-mage to the point where they would rather break  the Nevarran Accord than consider granting the mages more freedom, they failed massively and ended up letting the situation slide into war.

You can only keep a people down for so long before they will try to rise up.  The game is only somewhat realistic here because it probably wouldn't have taken 900 years for it to happen.

Safety should take precedence over morality.

Never.  We should be willing to die for the right causes.  To do otherwise is to allow massive injustice.  That is like saying the US should have stayed out of WWII and just let Hitler slaughter all the Jews he wanted to.  Ridiculous.

Modifié par GavrielKay, 10 août 2012 - 04:33 .

[The Hierophant]

Urzon wrote...

 Technically, didn't the Templar order kinda dissolve itself after Asunder? Though, I'm not sure if they reverted back into the Inquisition or not. I'm best guess is that while the Inquisition is terrorizing the countryside, the Chantry loyal Templar are going to try and rebuild the Order (hopefully for the better).

It would probably take decades to rebuild the order, and the populace would probably be openly hostile to the templars (due to the roving bands of lyrium addicted zealots pillaging everything in sight) preventing the chantry loyal templars from doing their jobs.

The mages are going to have the same problem. The Circles are going to want to get plans together for the future, only for some blood mages to screw that up by attacking a town or city.

Both sides will want peace with the least amount of bloodshed, but the extremes of those side won't allow that to happen.

With people like Lambert (if he is still alive), Fiona, and Adrian running the show i sadly agree.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 10 août 2012 - 04:41 .

[brushyourteeth]

The Hierophant wrote...
With people like Lambert (if he is still alive), Fiona, and Adrian running the show i sadly agree.

Maker, I want the chance to kill Adrian so bad!

If the mage/templar situation is going to be the focus of the next thing, I hope it really is the focus throughout the entire game. No interrupts and antagonist-changers like in DAII (unless we've been double-crossed). The more I read this thread (I've been lurking), the more excited I am by the fun all this chaos can inspire.

Kinda hope we aren't able to just "fix" everything at the end though. That seems... rather unrealistic.

[Xilizhra]

Why kill Adrian? She's awesome, and the worst thing she did was kill someone who was begging for death. And Fiona's an excellent leader. Even Lambert fits his role well, for an organization so evil.