278 réponses à ce sujet

[Reznore57]

Mages seems to work well in small and united communities.
When they're a few and normal people and mages look out for each others , it can work.
Problem with human is there is no such things , people are divided among humans.

They're divided between country , they're divided because of money ( noble , really poor , and average) etc....
The problem is what happen with mages that lives in alienages , what happen to mages living in places like darktown ,what happen to noble human in orlais where noble are always fighting with each others...
Human society is far too divided and lack equality in the first place to have mages living like all the others.

And having mage being an elite is no solution neither , the whole human society , not just the chantry would need to chance .
I don't think it's gonna happen anytime soon.

[The Hierophant]

@Nizaris1 - The lifestyle, culture, and values of the Dalish are not comparable to the society of humans, which is a breeding ground of greed, and corruption.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 10 août 2012 - 09:58 .

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
Except that the mage "extremists" all came out well and more or less sympathetically, whereas the templars... didn't. There are also several passages talking about just how morally bankrupt the Templar Order has become.

Hardly. You are supposed to hate Adrian, even Rhys wanted to kill her.
Just like there are passages who speak of how dangerous and entitled mages are. The thing is, you just give credit to one side of the argument and dismiss the other.

If there is a mage who wants to work with demons to ressurect Tevinter, that's "bad writing". But if there is a templar who want to Tranquil all mages and sexually abuse them, that's a "sign of how evil the Order is".

The templars were the ones who started the war when they betrayed the Divine.

The mages were the ones who started the war when they declared themselves independent.

Modifié par MisterJB, 10 août 2012 - 09:58 .

[Xilizhra]

Hardly. You are supposed to hate Adrian, even Rhys wanted to kill her.
Just like there are passages who speak of how dangerous and entitled mages are. The thing is, you just give credit to one side of the argument and dismiss the other.

I was supposed to hate Adrian? Odd. Look askance on her methods, maybe, but she and Rhys are still on the same side by the end. In any case, I think the dangerous/entitled mage thing was all character dialogue, while the bits about templars weren't all.

If there is a mage who wants to work with demons to ressurect Tevinter, that's "bad writing". But if there is a templar who want to Tranquil all mages and sexually abuse them, that's a "sign of how evil the Order is".

You appear to be confusing me with someone else. I didn't consider that bad writing. However, she's also not affiliated with any Circle in the slightest.

The mages were the ones who started the war when they declared themselves independent.

Actually, no. The templars weren't independent at that time; it was just mages/Chantry. The mages didn't vote for an intention to destroy the Chantry, simply to leave it. Hence, the person to decide whether or not it was war with the organizations existing at that time was Justinia, and she did not declare war. Lambert, however, left the Chantry and made a separate declaration of war, as a now-independent organization that didn't exist in independence at the time of the mages' departure. Hence, Lambert's forming a new side was the true beginning of the actual war, as opposed to just a sharp downturn in Circle/Chantry relations.

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
I was supposed to hate Adrian? Odd. Look askance on her methods, maybe, but she and Rhys are still on the same side by the end. In any case, I think the dangerous/entitled mage thing was all character dialogue, while the bits about templars weren't all.

You appear to be confusing me with someone else. I didn't consider that bad writing. However, she's also not affiliated with any Circle in the slightest.

I hate Adrian. And we won't go through DA3 without fighting mages. There is a very good chance of her becoming an antagonist.

I'm not confusing anything, Tyronne was merely an example meant to illustrate how the dangerous mages encoutered in DA2 tend to be blamed on "bad writing" but the same never seems to apply to any templar abuse.

Gaider writes his books from the perspective of different characters. In Asunder, it's either Cole or Rhys or Evangeline and Gaider understands moral ambiguity enough to know not to tell the reader what to feel.
If there is a passage describing the morality of the templar order, chances are it is simply the opinion of the character that chapter focuses on.

Actually, no. The templars weren't independent at that time; it was just mages/Chantry. The mages didn't vote for an intention to destroy the Chantry, simply to leave it. Hence, the person to decide whether or not it was war with the organizations existing at that time was Justinia, and she did not declare war. Lambert, however, left the Chantry and made a separate declaration of war, as a now-independent organization that didn't exist in independence at the time of the mages' departure. Hence, Lambert's forming a new side was the true beginning of the actual war, as opposed to just a sharp downturn in Circle/Chantry relations.

The mages can't pretend their actions and decisions happen in a vaccum. By choosing to take such a drastic action as to "free" themselves while failing to take into account the danger they represent, they forced a drastic action from the part of the people who fear them. They knew it would lead to war and they went ahead with it anyway.

[GavrielKay]

[quote]MisterJB wrote...
The mages can reproduce, can they not? Mundanes have no "natural advantage" the mages can not possess. On the other hand, mundanes can't learn magic.[/quote]

Except the mages are restricted in their liasons and have their children taken away.  They are also subject to interesting population control methods like the Harrowing where they are killed if they give the Templars any reason to think it didn't go well.

[quote]Fear is what keeps people alive.[/quote]

Fear is one of the things that keeps people alive.  If that's all you've got left however, I'd say your life isn't worth living any more.

[quote]Morality is subjective.[/quote]

Sometimes.  I think it's fair to say if you wouldn't want it to happen to you, then you'd better have a darned good reason to do it to someone else.

[quote]You can't cure magic any more than you can cure humanity's faults. You also can't erradicate demons.[/quote]

I doubt it's been tried by any means other than the Rite of Tranquility.  Even that apparently wasn't fully researched.

[quote]I find it morally, irresponsible and naive to risk all for the sake of a group of people who are inherently dangerous.[/quote]

Everyone is inherently dangerous.  Life in inherently dangerous.  I find it morally irresopnsible to let the majority decide that of the myriad of risks they take knowingly or otherwise, that this ONE risk is one they refuse to put up with.  And I find it dubious that that risk is as bad as the Chantry wants everyone to believe.

[quote]But that does not mean we should abolish the prison system because, in a real attack, there are too many factors to take into account that can prevent the victim from defending itself.[/quote]

The prison system is where we put people who have committed crimes.  Not people who might one day commit a crime.

There exists something that you could just read and protect someone from mind control?  Even if it isn't a cure all, why wouldn't you want it in the hands of everyone who could possibly learn to recite it?

[quote]Not to mention the Litany only protects people from mind control. If a mage decides to kill you with any other spell, and there are many to choose from, it's useless.[/quote]

Sure, but why wouldn't you want to provide people the tools to protect themselves from whatever they can?

[quote]They do conduct research into blood magic and demons. The Litany of Adralla proves this.[/quote]

Adralla was from Tevinter, though.
[quote]http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Litany_of_Adralla
Adralla of Vyrantium dedicated her life to the study of blood magic—the academic study, rather than the practice. A deeply pious mage, she was renowned in her day for having found a counter to every form of mind control, a defense against dream walkers, and even counter-spells to demonic summons.
Her efforts went unappreciated in her native Tevinter, however. After three different magisters attempted to have her killed, she fled the country, choosing to take refuge in the land of Blessed Andraste's birth. She spent the remainder of her days with the Circle in Ferelden.[/quote]

[quote]Mages can not be safely re-integrated into society. They are too dangerous and unpredictable.[/quote]

This is not proven in game play.
[quote]If the mages are not willing to work with the templars, how can we expect the templars to be willing to work with them?[/quote]

Umm, after 900 years of enslavement, I have zero problem with the mages deciding that enough was enough.

[quote]They obviously can't let hundreds of nuclear reactors roam free.[/quote]

Dehumanizing your enemy is often the first step.  It makes doing all sorts of unsavory things feel better.

Modifié par GavrielKay, 10 août 2012 - 10:31 .

[GavrielKay]

Hazasaurus98 wrote...
Really? That's very intresting. According to the wiki, if a child is born with magic, they're raised in their clan, but if there is already a first or multiple children capable of assuming the role, than they are "given" (not sure if that's an appropriate word, but oh well) to another clan in the Dalish clan gathering every few years. Maybe it was just game mechanics. But hey, perhaps you NEED magic to fully understand the halla.

According to the wiki, Elora was a mage.  I don't know if there was any lore around it being necessary to work with the halla.  Anyway, the impression that I got was that as there weren't a lot of mages born to the elves, they did try to make sure each clan had at least two (the Keeper and First) by shuffling people around where needed.  

I didn't get the idea that it was somehow forbidden for a clan to have more mages though.

[Xilizhra]

I hate Adrian. And we won't go through DA3 without fighting mages. There is a very good chance of her becoming an antagonist.

We didn't go through DAO without fighting mages either, and I believe that system could work well again: random scoundrels, mercenaries for political opponents and darkspawn emissaries, plus a few Tevinter nationals. Perhaps saarebas as well. Bioware has said it won't repeat the blood mage saturation of DA2.

I'm not confusing anything, Tyronne was merely an example meant to illustrate how the dangerous mages encoutered in DA2 tend to be blamed on "bad writing" but the same never seems to apply to any templar abuse.

Obviously. It's a psychological thing. People tend to lump in the various mage antagonists into one group, despite them having ties as close as, say, Rendon Howe and Jarvia. Templars, on the other hand, are all one group. They aren't really comparable.

Gaider writes his books from the perspective of different characters. In Asunder, it's either Cole or Rhys or Evangeline and Gaider understands moral ambiguity enough to know not to tell the reader what to feel.
If there is a passage describing the morality of the templar order, chances are it is simply the opinion of the character that chapter focuses on.

As you like, but I seriously doubt they would have split the templars from the Chantry if they weren't going to divide the general Andrastian perspective into a sympathetic one vs. a wholly antagonistic one. Especially since a few templars and Seekers are still clinging onto the Chantry to provide the pro-Circle view anyway. If the templars aren't enemies to all, it's kind of a waste of setup.

The mages can't pretend their actions and decisions happen in a vaccum. By choosing to take such a drastic action as to "free" themselves while failing to take into account the danger they represent, they forced a drastic action from the part of the people who fear them. They knew it would lead to war and they went ahead with it anyway.

There's no proof of them failing to take anything into account, and no action was forced. The templars made a choice, just as the mages did. It was just the choice to begin their slaughter.

[GavrielKay]

MisterJB wrote...
The mages can't pretend their actions and decisions happen in a vaccum. By choosing to take such a drastic action as to "free" themselves while failing to take into account the danger they represent, they forced a drastic action from the part of the people who fear them. They knew it would lead to war and they went ahead with it anyway.

Which is why it was a lousy idea for the Chantry to treat mages the way they have been for 900 years.  What exactly did they expect?  They remove mages from society, thus preventing mages from forming the sort of connections which might engender sympathy for the normals.

Were I a mage, I'd be hurling fireballs at passing villagers for fun.  These poor "innocent" people are the ones whose fear and ignorance gives the Chantry enough power to kidnap and incarcerate mages.

You just can't treat people like dangerous animals and then get all bent out of shape when they act like that.

Modifié par GavrielKay, 10 août 2012 - 10:34 .

[MisterJB]

[quote]GavrielKay wrote...
Except the mages are restricted in their liasons and have their children taken away.  They are also subject to interesting population control methods like the Harrowing where they are killed if they give the Templars any reason to think it didn't go well. [/quote]
You were talking abouty Tevinter where mages have zero restrictions. And I do mean zero, they bleed children at parties there to make fireworks.

[quote]Fear is one of the things that keeps people alive.  If that's all you've got left however, I'd say your life isn't worth living any more. [/quote]
Better to be careful and alive than trusting and have a knife stabbed in your back.

[quote]Sometimes.  I think it's fair to say if you wouldn't want it to happen to you, then you'd better have a darned good reason to do it to someone else. [/quote]
Always.
The fact that there are a group of people with tremendous amount of power to abuse is a good enough reason.

[quote]I doubt it's been tried by any means other than the Rite of Tranquility.  Even that apparently wasn't fully researched. [/quote]
Magic is a resource. It shouldn't be destroyed in the first place, only controlled.

[quote]Everyone is inherently dangerous.  Life in inherently dangerous.  I find it morally irresopnsible to let the majority decide that of the myriad of risks they take knowingly or otherwise, that this ONE risk is one they refuse to put up with.  And I find it dubious that that risk is as bad as the Chantry wants everyone to believe. [/quote]
And we take measures to reduce the inherent danger of certain things. It's why we don't let common people keep uranium in their garages.
Because it's too dangerous. Mages can kill people with a tough and attract demons. They are too dangerous.

[quote]The prison system is where we put people who have committed crimes.  Not people who might one day commit a crime. [/quote]
We have contained people who were considered inherently dangerous during times of crysis. For instance, in WW2 when the US imprisoned people of japanese ancestry to ensure they couldn't betray the country.
In Thedas, this is just a reality they have to live with each day.

[quote]There exists something that you could just read and protect someone from mind control?  Even if it isn't a cure all, why wouldn't you want it in the hands of everyone who could possibly learn to recite it?

Sure, but why wouldn't you want to provide people the tools to protect themselves from whatever they can? [/quote]
I don't see anything that indicates the Chantry keeps people from learning to recite the Litany if they want to. But you should remember this is not our world where your words can reach all corner of the world easily through television or internet. Ferelden doesn't even have a university.

I am in favor of  anything that makes the common man more capable of fighting mages. I just don't believe that if we gave everyone a taser, that would justify abolishing the prison system.

[quote]Adralla was from Tevinter, though. [/quote]
You are right. However, there are several mentions in the Codex of experimentation into blood magic and demonology performed by experienced mages and supported by the Chantry.
And that is a very reasonable measure.

[quote]This is not proven in game play. [/quote]
It's basic human psychology. "Power corrupts" it's cliched but it's also true. Mages have the power of shaping reality.
And that is not even taking into account the amount of destruction an Abomination or simply a failed spell can cause.

[quote]Umm, after 900 years of enslavement, I have zero problem with the mages deciding that enough was enough. [/quote]
It's a neverending cycle of opression then. The only difference is who is on top.
At least the mages of Andrastian society live in luxurious towers, are clothed and fed. Can the slaves of Tevinter say the same?

[quote]Dehumanizing your enemy is often the first step.  It makes doing all sorts of unsavory things feel better.
[/quote]
It's actually the fact mages are human that terrifies me. Nuclear Reactors are not capable of arrogance and sadism.

[MisterJB]

GavrielKay wrote...

MisterJB wrote...
The mages can't pretend their actions and decisions happen in a vaccum. By choosing to take such a drastic action as to "free" themselves while failing to take into account the danger they represent, they forced a drastic action from the part of the people who fear them. They knew it would lead to war and they went ahead with it anyway.

Which is why it was a lousy idea for the Chantry to treat mages the way they have been for 900 years.  What exactly did they expect?  They remove mages from society, thus preventing mages from forming the sort of connections which might engender sympathy for the normals.

Were I a mage, I'd be hurling fireballs at passing villagers for fun.  These poor "innocent" people are the ones whose fear and ignorance gives the Chantry enough power to kidnap and incarcerate mages.

You just can't treat people like dangerous animals and then get all bent out of shape when they act like that.

In the real world, how many people who lived in confort, equality and freedom did not turn towards banditry or terrorism? The mages of Tevinter weren't opressed and they still created the greatest ballwark of immorality and evil that ever existed in Thedas.
This idea that if you treat people well, you will be well treated in return is pleasant but false.

Also, mundanes have good reasons to fear mages. If you see someone holding a gun, do you feel confortable sitting next to that person?

Modifié par MisterJB, 10 août 2012 - 11:02 .

[Xilizhra]

At least the mages of Andrastian society live in luxurious towers, are clothed and fed. Can the slaves of Tevinter say the same?

Actually, I believe that in the majority of cases, all of those qualifiers are true. Certainly they're clothed and fed, otherwise they'd be a bit useless. And from the codex descriptions of Minrathous, luxurious towers are the standard magister housing. So, yes, as a matter of fact, they are.

In the real world, how many people who lived in confort, equality and freedom did not turn towards banditry or terrorism?

Most. This may surprise you, but most people aren't criminal by nature.

The mages of Tevinter weren't opressed and they still created the
greatest ballwark of immorality and evil that ever existed in Thedas.

The qunari are worse, Orlais and Antiva are barely better, and there are plenty of IRL societies as bad or worse than Tevinter. Magic didn't make the government evil.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 10 août 2012 - 11:09 .

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
Actually, I believe that in the majority of cases, all of those qualifiers are true. Certainly they're clothed and fed, otherwise they'd be a bit useless. And from the codex descriptions of Minrathous, luxurious towers are the standard magister housing. So, yes, as a matter of fact, they are.

Slaves are worked to near death exhaustion and can be killed on a whim from Magisters. In most Circles, all you have to do is behave and you won't be bothered.

Most. This may surprise you, but most people aren't criminal by nature.

People are selfish and greedy and prejudiced by nature, however. Many of the terrorists captured in western soil were people who were treated fairly and equally and were still planning to kill innocents over ideologies.

The qunari are worse, Orlais and Antiva are barely better, and there are plenty of IRL societies as bad or worse than Tevinter. Magic didn't make the government evil.

The Qunari are not worse.
Orlais and Antiva are considerably better.
Magic helps create people who believe themselve superior to others. It can easily to lead to tyrants who are ever harder to dispose of.
That is not to say mundanes are without faults, of course.

[Xilizhra]

Slaves are worked to near death exhaustion and can be killed on a whim from Magisters. In most Circles, all you have to do is behave and you won't be bothered.

Your attempt to claim that the "worked to death" thing is universal is rather silly. For one thing, not all slaves are involved in hard labor; in fact, given that a lot of that can be more easily accomplished with magic, I suspect much of that is done by mage slaves who can accomplish a lot more with relative ease. And the only slaves we've even seen have been household servants, one of whom said that everything had been fine up until Fenris' attack; yes, Fenris said she didn't know any better, but I think that had to do with Orana being a slave in general rather than specific living conditions. They can be killed for power, which is bad, but then apprentices can be made Tranquil on the knight-commander's whim as well. Also full mages if said KC ignores the Chantry law on the matter.

People are selfish and greedy and prejudiced by nature, however. Many of the terrorists captured in western soil were people who were treated fairly and equally and were still planning to kill innocents over ideologies.

Sources? Plus, they weren't entire populations rebelling at once.

The Qunari are not worse.
Orlais and Antiva are considerably better.

Opinion, I suppose.

Magic helps create people who believe themselve superior to others. It can easily to lead to tyrants who are ever harder to dispose of.

Magic is not a cause of anything, and it can just as easily make people believe themselves inferior to others. It all depends on the culture, not the condition of magic itself.

[dragonflight288]

In the real world, how many people who lived in confort, equality and freedom did not turn towards banditry or terrorism? The mages of Tevinter weren't opressed and they still created the greatest ballwark of immorality and evil that ever existed in Thedas.
This idea that if you treat people well, you will be well treated in return is pleasant but false.

Also, mundanes have good reasons to fear mages. If you see someone holding a gun, do you feel confortable sitting next to that person?

Also, in the real world, people who live in comfort aren't at risk of being beaten for talking to civilians, being raped, lobotomized, being denied marriage, or even having their children taken away from them against their will.

As for the person with the gun, yeah, I'd be comfortable. I live in Nebraska. Everyone has a gun. We go hunting, get food. My brother was recently threatened at his job (he works in a mental institute that takes care of people who aren't mentally there...grown men with the mental faculties of a two year old) because he reported physical abuse by some of his coworkers. Charges were being pressed and they wanted to get back at my brother. He had every right to get a gun to defend himself and his wife with.

Not trying to highlight his work troubles (which are now mostly resolved) or garner sympathy, but show that having power or a weapon doesn't mean instantly dangerous and needs to be locked up.

[Anvos]

MisterJB wrote...

In the real world, how many people who lived in confort, equality and freedom did not turn towards banditry or terrorism? The mages of Tevinter weren't opressed and they still created the greatest ballwark of immorality and evil that ever existed in Thedas.
This idea that if you treat people well, you will be well treated in return is pleasant but false.

Also, mundanes have good reasons to fear mages. If you see someone holding a gun, do you feel confortable sitting next to that person?

Tevintar ended up ruled by mages for the simple fact that they chose a feature that actually could set their nobility apart from regular people instead of saying their better than everybody else because their great great great great grandfather(or something like that) wielded the biggest club in the village and could bully others into doing what he said.  Not to mention Tevintar's whole culture is centered around viewing magic as a gift rather than a curse.

On a seperate note:
Why do people keep thinking that mage victory means no templar order?  Tevintar proves you wrong their mages are free and instead of being controled by anti magic religous fanatics the templars are controled somewhere between the government and leadership of their circles, meaning the templar order can exist if it actually does its job and isnt just fanatical jailors.

Modifié par Anvos, 10 août 2012 - 11:49 .

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
Your attempt to claim that the "worked to death" thing is universal is rather silly. For one thing, not all slaves are involved in hard labor; in fact, given that a lot of that can be more easily accomplished with magic, I suspect much of that is done by mage slaves who can accomplish a lot more with relative ease. And the only slaves we've even seen have been household servants, one of whom said that everything had been fine up until Fenris' attack; yes, Fenris said she didn't know any better, but I think that had to do with Orana being a slave in general rather than specific living conditions. They can be killed for power, which is bad, but then apprentices can be made Tranquil on the knight-commander's whim as well. Also full mages if said KC ignores the Chantry law on the matter.

It is true that certain slaves take care of softer household chores. But magic is a mark of honor in Tevinter, while there are mage slaves, they are likely a minority and certainly not enough to work in quarries, erect cities, etc.
Orana didn't know any better due to the likely possibility she was born a slave. Thus, her word doesn't have much credibility. Fenris, on the other hand, is able to recognize the disparity that exists between Andrastian and Tevinter society and he much prefers the former.

I did say "most circles". In most circles, you will only be made Tranquil if you practice forbidden magic or are too dangerous. Templars like Meredith or Alrik are the exception whereas Magisters like Danarius are the norm.

Sources? Plus, they weren't entire populations rebelling at once.

Timothy McVeigh, for instance.
Do you need all nuclear reactors in the world to explode in order to justify safety measures?

Magic is not a cause of anything, and it can just as easily make people believe themselves inferior to others. It all depends on the culture, not the condition of magic itself.

The condition of magic itself influences how a person perceives himself and others. While Andrastian culture can lead to some mages hating their powers, there are also many mages within Andrastian lands who believe themselves superior and take advantage of any excuse to use blood magic.

[MisterJB]

Anvos wrote...
Why do people keep thinking that mage victory means no templar order?  Tevintar proves you wrong their mages are free and instead of being controled by anti magic religous fanatics the templars are controled somewhere between the government and leadership of their circles, meaning the templar order can exist if it actually does its job and isnt just fanatical jailors.

The templars in Tevinter are useless. Every single source from the games tells us this.
Mages in Tevinter are free, mundanes aren't.

Modifié par MisterJB, 11 août 2012 - 12:03 .

[MisterJB]

dragonflight288 wrote...
Also, in the real world, people who live in comfort aren't at risk of being beaten for talking to civilians, being raped, lobotomized, being denied marriage, or even having their children taken away from them against their will.

In certain places of the world...
Regardless, my point was that people don't need to be opressed in order to become violent. Giving mages freedom just increases the risk for mundane populations.

As for the person with the gun, yeah, I'd be comfortable. I live in Nebraska. Everyone has a gun. We go hunting, get food. My brother was recently threatened at his job (he works in a mental institute that takes care of people who aren't mentally there...grown men with the mental faculties of a two year old) because he reported physical abuse by some of his coworkers. Charges were being pressed and they wanted to get back at my brother. He had every right to get a gun to defend himself and his wife with.

Not trying to highlight his work troubles (which are now mostly resolved) or garner sympathy, but show that having power or a weapon doesn't mean instantly dangerous and needs to be locked up.

I don't know your brother. If I saw him holding a gun, I would not feel safe near him.
I'm sure your brother is a decent person but there are many who will use guns to hurt others. And while the government can confiscate firearms, magic can't be confiscated.

[dragonflight288]

MisterJB wrote...

Anvos wrote...
Why do people keep thinking that mage victory means no templar order?  Tevintar proves you wrong their mages are free and instead of being controled by anti magic religous fanatics the templars are controled somewhere between the government and leadership of their circles, meaning the templar order can exist if it actually does its job and isnt just fanatical jailors.

The templars in Tevinter are useless. Every single source from the games tells us this.
Mages in Tevinter are free, mundanes aren't.

Mages are slaves in Tevinter as well. It is magisters who rule, and they are mages, but not every mage is a magister.

And the templars in Tevinter do hunt abominations. Fenris admits this. He even says that the Rite of Annulment is sometimes used there as well. But Tevinter's interpretation of the Chant of Light allowed the magisters to take back their power inch by inch until it was no different from before Andraste.

[Xilizhra]

It is true that certain slaves take care of softer household chores. But magic is a mark of honor in Tevinter, while there are mage slaves, they are likely a minority and certainly not enough to work in quarries, erect cities, etc.
Orana didn't know any better due to the likely possibility she was born a slave. Thus, her word doesn't have much credibility. Fenris, on the other hand, is able to recognize the disparity that exists between Andrastian and Tevinter society and he much prefers the former.

Just so long as you understand your previous statement was inaccurate.

I did say "most circles". In most circles, you will only be made Tranquil if you practice forbidden magic or are too dangerous. Templars like Meredith or Alrik are the exception whereas Magisters like Danarius are the norm.

Or if the templars decide you're weak. That can happen even in Ferelden. In addition to the evil of the Harrowing itself.

Timothy McVeigh, for instance.
Do you need all nuclear reactors in the world to explode in order to justify safety measures?

I'm not going to unjustly imprison those who've committed no crime. Install safety measures from the demons, yes, but those should be as nonrestrictive of freedom as possible.

The condition of magic itself influences how a person perceives himself and others. While Andrastian culture can lead to some mages hating their powers, there are also many mages within Andrastian lands who believe themselves superior and take advantage of any excuse to use blood magic.

The point being that either they fall in with that culture and believe themselves inferior, or rebel against it and believe themselves superior. And of rogue blood mages, there are plenty who don't see themselves as superior so much as just wanting to get an edge against their templar oppressors.

[The Hierophant]

MisterJB wrote...

I don't know your brother. If I saw him holding a gun, I would not feel safe near him.
I'm sure your brother is a decent person but there are many who will use guns to hurt others. And while the government can confiscate firearms, magic can't be confiscated.

You have a right to be especially when stupid unpredictable crap happens like this - 

Modifié par The Hierophant, 11 août 2012 - 12:18 .

[Plaintiff]

The solution to the "Templar/Mage Problem" requires a fundamental shift in the way that society in most of Thedas views magic and mages. "Mages aren't people like you and me!" Cullen says, and that sums up the majority view of Thedas perfectly. The dogma of the Chantry and the Templars dictates that mages are inhuman, little better than the darkspawn that the Chant of Light claims they inflicted on the world. They use this as justification to craft a containment system that is inherently abusive, and not even just to mages.

But mages are human, and they have basic needs that aren't being met. They are fed, clothed, sheltered and educated (but only in magic), but I am talking about emotional needs. Basic things like privacy, companionship and comfort which everyone outside of the Circle takes for granted.

The Circle Towers are now the homes of the mages, and that means they have a right to feel safe and secure there, but how can they possibly when the system in which they live dictates that they can be lawfully killed at any time based on arbitrary judgement of "weakness", and instances of rape and abuse by their captors go uninvestigated and unpunished? How can they have companionship when any emotional ties are a weakness that the Templars can and will exploit? How can they be comfortable living in an insular society where they have to deal with hateful zealots not just living near them, but watching them constantly and being in charge of every aspect of their lives?

People deride the plethora of "insane" and emotionally unstable mages in DA2 as "bad writing", but given the system in which most are raised, the true wonder is that they don't all turn out like that.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 11 août 2012 - 04:09 .

[Goneaviking]

Plaintiff wrote...
The solution to the "Templar/Mage Problem" requires a fundamental shift in the way that society in most of Thedas views magic and mages. "Mages aren't people like you and me!" Cullen says, and that sums up the majority view of Thedas perfectly. The dogma of the Chantry and the Templars dictates that mages are inhuman, little better than the darkspawn that the Chant of Light claims they inflicted on the world. They use this as justification to craft a containment system that is inherently abusive, and not even just to mages.

This is an important point to make. Systems that explicitly victimise one group tend to have effects that spiral out of control, the abusers tend to become warped by their own position of power and the behaviour it allows them to indulge in and it introduces into, or reinforces within, broader society the idea that it's okay to delineate some groups for privileged treatment and others for victimisation.

Although it probably wasn't intended position of elves within Ferelden, Kirkwall and Orlais mirror the one inflicted on mages within the circle. They're shoved into ghettoes to wallow in poverty, coming out primarily to work at the worst and least valued jobs in their cities, and if people start to think they're taking human jobs there are no mechanisms in place to prevent them from simply being dumped and replaced with human labour. To really hammer home the correlation, alienages even have great big gates that can be locked from the outside if it proves to be convenient for the authorities to do so.

In Orlais where Leliana informs us elves have value, they're valued primarily as serviles. They look pretty and they're capable of refined and delicate services, but they're certainly not on the same level as humans.

This is why I dismiss the Chantry's faith as being the cause of the situation, it's clearly a problem endemic in the human societies within Thedas. I'm hopeful that the elves will once again seize their opportunity to rise up in alliance with the mages to force a more equitable society on their oppressors.

But mages are human, and they have basic needs that aren't being met. They are fed, clothed, sheltered and educated (but only in magic), but I am talking about emotional needs. Basic things like privacy, companionship and comfort which everyone outside of the Circle takes for granted.

They actually do have companionship and comfort; and privacy as we understand it in contemporary western societies isn't always a priority in every society. It's likely that it wouldn't occur to someone raised in the Circle that privacy was an issue, particuliarly if they were conscripted at a young enough age.

What they really need and are implicitly denied is security. Every circle mage knows that they only have what few rights their jailers deign to allow them, and they may be taken away at the templars' will. They know that if a templar gets it into their mind to abuse, or take advantage of them, they have no protection from it and if they resist they will face severe punishment. Every circle mage feels a damoclean blade to their throat at every breath.

The Circle Towers are now the homes of the mages, and that means they have a right to feel safe and secure there, but how can they possibly when the system in which they live dictates that they can be lawfully killed at any time based on arbitrary judgement of "weakness", and instances of rape and abuse by their captors go uninvestigated and unpunished? How can they have companionship when any emotional ties are a weakness that the Templars can and will exploit? How can they be comfortable living in an insular society where they have to deal with hateful zealots not just living near them, but watching them constantly and being in charge of every aspect of their lives?

People deride the plethora of "insane" and emotionally unstable mages in DA2 as "bad writing", but given the system in which most are raised, the true wonder is that they don't all turn out like that.

Severely disturbed mages are the logical product of the system they're forced into. Mandatory execution of all mages would actually be a kindness compared to the conditions they have imposed on them.

Modifié par Goneaviking, 11 août 2012 - 05:32 .

[Plaintiff]

Goneaviking wrote...
This is why I dismiss the Chantry's faith as being the cause of the situation, it's clearly a problem endemic in the human societies within Thedas. I'm hopeful that the elves will once again seize their opportunity to rise up in alliance with the mages to force a more equitable society on their oppressors.

I would agree. The Chantry is not the cause (at least, not the sole cause), and certainly not the only party worthy of blame. While they mostly govern mages, they bear a large portion of the responsibility for the position of non-mage elves in Thedas. They facilitate the discrimination and abuse of society at large by a) downplaying the positive contribution of elves in their own lore (eg Shartan and the elves' involvement in Andraste's Exalted March on Tevinter), using their faith to justify the Exalted March on the Dales, and c) continued demonizing of the Dalish tribes.

That did not actually occur to me at first, though. 

When I said the Circle system was inherently abusive to more than just mages, I mostly meant that the templars themselves suffer at the Chantry's hands. They are, in some respects, little better than slaves themselves. Their unwavering zeal makes them highly suggestive, and the Chantry also binds them to its will through lyrium, which we know is an addictive substance. If a good man like Thrask or Keran or Samson finds themselves questioning their work, the option of leaving is essentially nonexistant, as their dependance on lyrium now prevents them from pursuing any other kind of life, reducing them to drug-addled beggars.

The closest analogy I can think of in our own world is the use of addictive substances like heroin to "leash" prostitutes to their abusive pimps. It's a truly despicable practise.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 11 août 2012 - 06:01 .