278 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterJB]

Yes, she is. Both believe that what they are doing is right and both are willing to do whatever it takes to achieve their goals. Rape produces a worse feeling in our guts and thus, we call Alrik the worst of the worst. But starting a world war is even worse.
Independence is not the ideal solution. Cooperation, mutual respect and dignity is. And that can only be achieve through negotiation. Justinia was willing to work with mages like Wynne on an equal footing in order to improve the situation. They could have achieved something great had Adrian not sabotaged everything.

Pharamond was dangerous. I'm not suggesting we make him Tranquil again right away, only keep him under ever greater surveilance until he regained control of himself.
That is called a reasonable solution. Not release time bombs and mass murderers into the world like Adrian wanted.

[Xilizhra]

Justinia is one, mortal woman. When she dies, it'll all fall through, and I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest if Lambert would facilitate this if Justinia was too tractable; in any case, I don't trust her to do what's right in the end. Adrian started no wars; in fact, I might argue that this war, in a cold sort of way, has been going on for centuries, with each Annulment a particularly hot struggle. But it was the Chantry who oppressed the mages for so long and Lambert who chose to take it a step further. The mages only fight back against that which others have attempted to inflict upon them. The Chantry has sowed the wind; now it reaps the whirlwind.

As for what you said earlier about how we were "supposed" to hate Adrian. I find this unlikely; she's the book's version of Anders, and we were never "supposed" to hate him.

[MisterJB]

Social changes that last after Justinia's death are entirely possible. It's the simple fact that neither side is willing to trust the other that leads to conflict.

If that is what you want, let's go even further. The mages opressed mundanes long before the Chantry was ever created, they are still opressing them, in fact. The Chantry is simply trying to fight back against what mages have inflicted upon mundanes for millenia, slavery and fear and destruction. The mages sowed the wind, now they must reap the whirlwind.

Just face it, neither side is 100% right but neither side is 100% wrong either. The mages deserve to not be prosecuted because of what they are but the mundanes also deserve to be able to live their lives without mages abusing their powers. Only through cooperation will this conflict end.
Justinia and Wynne and Thrask were willing to work together, to make concessions that can help both sides. Adrian was not.

Anders has factors that mitigates his guilt. Like Justice or the simple fact he is an LI. Adrian doesn't, even Rhys wanted to kill her.

[Xilizhra]

If that is what you want, let's go even further. The mages opressed mundanes long before the Chantry was ever created, they are still opressing them, in fact. The Chantry is simply trying to fight back against what mages have inflicted upon mundanes for millenia, slavery and fear and destruction. The mages sowed the wind, now they must reap the whirlwind.

That was resolved a thousand years ago, and ended with Andraste dismantling the southern Tevinter Imperium. That conflict ended, but Drakon started a new one when he founded the Chantry.

Just face it, neither side is 100% right but neither side is 100% wrong either. The mages deserve to not be prosecuted because of what they are but the mundanes also deserve to be able to live their lives without mages abusing their powers. Only through cooperation will this conflict end.
Justinia and Wynne and Thrask were willing to work together, to make concessions that can help both sides. Adrian was not.

Justinia was too willing to continue too much tyranny, Wynne was too willing to submit, and Thrask... well, his biggest weakness was a poor choice in allies, really, but I appreciate his moral treachery. Cooperation may come, but only after the institutions of tyranny have been destroyed.

Anders has factors that mitigates his guilt. Like Justice or the simple fact he is an LI. Adrian doesn't, even Rhys wanted to kill her.

I've wanted to kill many people, many times. But I haven't done so, and neither did Rhys then, and just because I wanted them dead doesn't mean that they're necessarily villains.

[DPSSOC]

Xilizhra wrote...
As for what you said earlier about how we were "supposed" to hate Adrian. I find this unlikely; she's the book's version of Anders, and we were never "supposed" to hate him.

You sure about that?  The incessant nagging, constant lies, repeatedly dragging you into situations whether you like it or not, not to mention the endless excuses for his and other mages abhorrent behaviour.  The devs couldn't have encouraged me to hate him more short of him being some kind of evil mastermind behind every mage that's given me grief over the past 7 years.

[Xilizhra]

DPSSOC wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
As for what you said earlier about how we were "supposed" to hate Adrian. I find this unlikely; she's the book's version of Anders, and we were never "supposed" to hate him.

You sure about that?  The incessant nagging, constant lies, repeatedly dragging you into situations whether you like it or not, not to mention the endless excuses for his and other mages abhorrent behaviour.  The devs couldn't have encouraged me to hate him more short of him being some kind of evil mastermind behind every mage that's given me grief over the past 7 years.

Well, some deranged people hate Merrill too. There's no accounting for taste, obviously.

[DPSSOC]

Xilizhra wrote...

If that is what you want, let's go even further. The mages opressed mundanes long before the Chantry was ever created, they are still opressing them, in fact. The Chantry is simply trying to fight back against what mages have inflicted upon mundanes for millenia, slavery and fear and destruction. The mages sowed the wind, now they must reap the whirlwind.

That was resolved a thousand years ago, and ended with Andraste dismantling the southern Tevinter Imperium. That conflict ended, but Drakon started a new one when he founded the Chantry.

To be fair the first conflict hasn't ended.  It had a 300 year break but that's about it.  The ongoing oppression of mundanes in Tevinter isn't rendered irrellevant because the mundanes are oppressing mages elsewhere.

[Xilizhra]

DPSSOC wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

If that is what you want, let's go even further. The mages opressed mundanes long before the Chantry was ever created, they are still opressing them, in fact. The Chantry is simply trying to fight back against what mages have inflicted upon mundanes for millenia, slavery and fear and destruction. The mages sowed the wind, now they must reap the whirlwind.

That was resolved a thousand years ago, and ended with Andraste dismantling the southern Tevinter Imperium. That conflict ended, but Drakon started a new one when he founded the Chantry.

To be fair the first conflict hasn't ended.  It had a 300 year break but that's about it.  The ongoing oppression of mundanes in Tevinter isn't rendered irrellevant because the mundanes are oppressing mages elsewhere.

Not oppression of mundanes; oppression of everyone who isn't a magister. They're totally fine with enslaving mages too.

[MisterJB]

You still don't understand or just refuse to. Tevinter is simply an example of the worst mages can become.
Mundanes live daily in fear of what mages might do, the conflict between them is not the Chantry vs Tevinter. It's an inevitable conflict that happens when two different groups of people attempt to share the same living space.
Destroying the Chantry, a group that had had an incredibly positive effect for human mundanes, simple ensures that the mages and only the mages win the war, it won't make mundanes fear them any less.

[Xilizhra]

MisterJB wrote...

You still don't understand or just refuse to. Tevinter is simply an example of the worst mages can become.
Mundanes live daily in fear of what mages might do, the conflict between them is not the Chantry vs Tevinter. It's an inevitable conflict that happens when two different groups of people attempt to share the same living space.
Destroying the Chantry, a group that had had an incredibly positive effect for human mundanes, simple ensures that the mages and only the mages win the war, it won't make mundanes fear them any less.

I have no intention of destroying the Chantry, only the Templar Order; that is the institution of tyranny. Conveniently, I won't even have to hurt the Chantry to obliterate the templars now. Once the Chantry is permanently defanged, negotiations may begin anew.

Also, the Chantry's positive effects are seriously exaggerated. Andraste did a lot of good, but she had nothing to do with the founding of the Chantry. The Chantry didn't free any slaves; in fact, it probably made them, or at least led to the heavy oppression of more people.

[MisterJB]

Negotiations can only be conducted through equal footing. Templars are needed if mundanes are to have a voice and many remained with the Chantry.
Those who left shuld be renamed "Inquisition".

The Chantry has created more moral populations. The fact that slavery is repudiated in Andrastian societies like Ferelden is thanks to Andraste and the Chantry. Not to mention they are the shield of mundanes against the dangers of magic.
It's not perfect, nothing is, but the Chantry has had a very positive effect on Thedas.

[Xilizhra]

The Chantry was just a crutch for Drakon to advance the power of Orlais, the second most evil empire on Thedas (assuming the qunari aren't really "on" Thedas yet). And Orlais still practices slavery, though they pretend not to. Antiva does as well, without pretending. And even Ferelden brutally oppresses its elven population. At best, its effect on Thedas seems to be net neutral; certainly there's no indication that the Maker's cult is any more moral than the Alamarri gods, for instance.

As for the mundanes having a voice... well, we'll see whom they side with, the mages or the templars.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 12 août 2012 - 05:05 .

[MisterJB]

Neither Orlais nor Antiva practice slavery. There are nobles who will abuse their powers regarding ownership of their servants but they are the exception, not the norm. Even Duke Prosper, a throughly unpleasant man gave no indication of mistreating his elven servants. Fenris has experienced both societies and he much prefers Andrastian.

This conflict has been going on for millenia and it pits mundanes against mages. Not templars. It's quite simple, really.

[Xilizhra]

MisterJB wrote...

Neither Orlais nor Antiva practice slavery. There are nobles who will abuse their powers regarding ownership of their servants but they are the exception, not the norm. Even Duke Prosper, a throughly unpleasant man gave no indication of mistreating his elven servants. Fenris has experienced both societies and he much prefers Andrastian.

This conflict has been going on for millenia and it pits mundanes against mages. Not templars. It's quite simple, really.

Antiva practices it with aplomb, Orlais in secret. From the codex:
"Slavery still thrives in Thedas, even if the trade has been outlawed. Who hasn't heard the tales of poverty-stricken elves lured into ships by the prospect of well-paying jobs in Antiva, only to find themselves clapped in leg-irons once at sea? And humans fall prey to this, too.
If they're lucky, they end up in Orlais,
which has only "servants." Most nobles treat them decently because they
are afraid of admitting the truth. Orlesians go to great lengths to
maintain the fiction that slavery is illegal."

[MisterJB]

"In recent years, though, the laws against slavery have become more strictly upheld. Empress Celene may have been instrumental in this change of policy."
So, in Orlais, even these well treated "servants" are being freed. The simple fact that common opinion holds that slavery is despicable is already quite the victory and it is possible thanks to Andraste and the Chantry.

In Antiva, we have the Crows but that type of slavery exists in today's world. People who simply have no options. Antivan slavers can just as easily sell their merchandise in Tevinter, not Antiva.

Are Andrastian societies perfect? Of course not but just compare it to Tevinter and you will see the positive effect Andraste and the Chantry had in Thedas.
Children arenot bled at parties in order to power spells. The Chantry could do this but they don't.

Modifié par MisterJB, 12 août 2012 - 05:33 .

[DPSSOC]

Xilizhra wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

If that is what you want, let's go even further. The mages opressed mundanes long before the Chantry was ever created, they are still opressing them, in fact. The Chantry is simply trying to fight back against what mages have inflicted upon mundanes for millenia, slavery and fear and destruction. The mages sowed the wind, now they must reap the whirlwind.

That was resolved a thousand years ago, and ended with Andraste dismantling the southern Tevinter Imperium. That conflict ended, but Drakon started a new one when he founded the Chantry.

To be fair the first conflict hasn't ended.  It had a 300 year break but that's about it.  The ongoing oppression of mundanes in Tevinter isn't rendered irrellevant because the mundanes are oppressing mages elsewhere.

Not oppression of mundanes; oppression of everyone who isn't a magister. They're totally fine with enslaving mages too.

Mages possess social mobility, mundanes do not.  Any mage who possesses the skill and power can rise to the position of magister, it's difficult but possible.  Mundanes do not have that opportunity, they will never be able to rise to any position of power.  The best they can hope for is to rise to the point where they aren't disposable; where their master would actually have to consider the cost, time, and effort in replacing them before killing them off hand.

[Xilizhra]

"In recent years, though, the laws against slavery have become more strictly upheld. Empress Celene may have been instrumental in this change of policy."
So, in Orlais, even these well treated "servants" are being freed. The simple fact that common opinion holds that slavery is despicable is already quite the victory and it is possible thanks to Andraste and the Chantry.

And, conveniently, she's in the midst of being ousted by a bunch of other nobles. I'm reminded of that one Tevinter archon who outlawed slavery.

In Antiva, we have the Crows but that type of slavery exists in today's world. People who simply have no options.

The Crows are only one source; there seem to be a fair few other slaves used.

Are Andrastian societies perfect? Of course not but just compare it to Tevinter and you will see the positive effect Andraste and the Chantry had in Thedas.
Children arenot bled at parties in order to power spells. The Chantry could do this but they don't.

Well, wedding parties are kidnapped and raped at swordpoint.

Mages possess social mobility, mundanes do not. Any mage who possesses the skill and power can rise to the position of magister, it's difficult but possible. Mundanes do not have that opportunity, they will never be able to rise to any position of power. The best they can hope for is to rise to the point where they aren't disposable; where their master would actually have to consider the cost, time, and effort in replacing them before killing them off hand.

Mundanes seem to be quite capable of attaining military rank. Including, interestingly enough, elves, as seen with that one officer under Caladrius. In a bit of a twist, Tevinter seems to be rather less racist than Andrastian societies.

[LobselVith8]

Xilizhra wrote...

I have no intention of destroying the Chantry, only the Templar Order; that is the institution of tyranny.

I think I would have my mage protagonist destroy both the Chantry of Andraste and the Order of Templars. The Chantry and the templars are both the same side of the Andrastian faith; they think they have the religious right to control and dominate the lives of mages. Why would my protagonist risk another millennia of slavery, if the possibility of freedom is within his grasp? No compromise, no capitulation. It would be my "Independent New Vegas" option for Dragon Age III.

[MisterJB]

Except slavery was outlawed in Orlais long, long ago.

[DPSSOC]

Xilizhra wrote...

Mages possess social mobility, mundanes do not. Any mage who possesses the skill and power can rise to the position of magister, it's difficult but possible. Mundanes do not have that opportunity, they will never be able to rise to any position of power. The best they can hope for is to rise to the point where they aren't disposable; where their master would actually have to consider the cost, time, and effort in replacing them before killing them off hand.

Mundanes seem to be quite capable of attaining military rank.

 
Your point being?  Soldiers, even high ranking soldiers, still don't hold any power.  Admittedly skilled soldiers and officers are more likely to find themselves in the not disposable category than say cooks or cobblers, but they're still just servants to the will of mages.

Xilizhra wrote...
Including, interestingly enough, elves, as seen with that one officer under Caladrius. In a bit of a twist, Tevinter seems to be rather less racist than Andrastian societies.

A vein's a vein I guess.

[Xilizhra]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I have no intention of destroying the Chantry, only the Templar Order; that is the institution of tyranny.

I think I would have my mage protagonist destroy both the Chantry of Andraste and the Order of Templars. The Chantry and the templars are both the same side of the Andrastian faith; they think they have the religious right to control and dominate the lives of mages. Why would my protagonist risk another millennia of slavery, if the possibility of freedom is within his grasp? No compromise, no capitulation. It would be my "Independent New Vegas" option for Dragon Age III.

For more or less the same reason why the US wants to make it clear that our various Middle Eastern wars aren't wars against Islam; there's a big difference in PR between battling an oppressive army and trying to outright attack peoples' religion. Mages can't win this war entirely on their own; we'll need commoner support as well.

[LobselVith8]

MisterJB wrote...

Except slavery was outlawed in Orlais long, long ago.

I didn't realize the six Circles of Magi in Orlais were outlawed.

[MisterJB]

You're confusing slavery with necessary safety measures.

[Xilizhra]

MisterJB wrote...

You're confusing slavery with necessary safety measures.

Rather, the Chantry confused necessary safety measures with slavery.

[LobselVith8]

Xilizhra wrote...

Mages can't win this war on their own; we'll need commoner support as well.

A plethora of people who are brainwashed into thinking mages are inherently evil because their religious leaders say so, and who were raised to think mages are cursed and belong under the heel of the templars and the Chantry?