278 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Mages can't win this war on their own; we'll need commoner support as well.

A plethora of people who are brainwashed into thinking mages are inherently evil because their religious leaders say so, and who were raised to think mages are cursed and belong under the heel of the templars and the Chantry?

Well, if MisterJB is right, mages can attract people like dragon cults, so we should be just fine.
More seriously, the templars will probably be hanging themselves here by pillaging the countryside for lyrium money and the like. And if what Cullen said about the Order losing popularity applies to most of Thedas... well, we'll at least have a position to dig in to.

[DPSSOC]

You know it is possible to hate both sides of a conflict. The drop in Templar popularity won't necessarily result in a change in attitude toward the mages.

[DKJaigen]

Xilizhra wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Mages can't win this war on their own; we'll need commoner support as well.

A plethora of people who are brainwashed into thinking mages are inherently evil because their religious leaders say so, and who were raised to think mages are cursed and belong under the heel of the templars and the Chantry?

Well, if MisterJB is right, mages can attract people like dragon cults, so we should be just fine.
More seriously, the templars will probably be hanging themselves here by pillaging the countryside for lyrium money and the like. And if what Cullen said about the Order losing popularity applies to most of Thedas... well, we'll at least have a position to dig in to.

To be honest Xilzhera you are a bit uninformed how medieval warfare works. Very simply put the common population are utterly worthless. only the ones that produce supplies for the templars should be exterminated. The rest should be ignored In war fear and moral are very important factors. I would suggest that the mages become the monsters the chantry claim them to be to completely paralyze (through the use of terror) the common people from helping the templars. The mages should focus on aquiring the service of mercenaries or gain favor with the nobility. And with the civil war in orlais  the mages have an excellent bargaining position.

[brushyourteeth]

DKJaigen wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Mages can't win this war on their own; we'll need commoner support as well.

A plethora of people who are brainwashed into thinking mages are inherently evil because their religious leaders say so, and who were raised to think mages are cursed and belong under the heel of the templars and the Chantry?

Well, if MisterJB is right, mages can attract people like dragon cults, so we should be just fine.
More seriously, the templars will probably be hanging themselves here by pillaging the countryside for lyrium money and the like. And if what Cullen said about the Order losing popularity applies to most of Thedas... well, we'll at least have a position to dig in to.

To be honest Xilzhera you are a bit uninformed how medieval warfare works. Very simply put the common population are utterly worthless. only the ones that produce supplies for the templars should be exterminated. The rest should be ignored In war fear and moral are very important factors. I would suggest that the mages become the monsters the chantry claim them to be to completely paralyze (through the use of terror) the common people from helping the templars. The mages should focus on aquiring the service of mercenaries or gain favor with the nobility. And with the civil war in orlais  the mages have an excellent bargaining position.

So you want them to become the new Tevinter....?

Fair enough. 

[Insaner Robot]

Total freedom for mages isn't practical, total freedom for anyone isn't practical everybody is governed by somebody. Abolition/destruction of the templars isn't practical, they or a group with their skills and training are required to guard the mages from themselves as just as much as anyone who seek to harm them.

The only way you could arguably have mages "free" is for them to up and leave to an island/area of continent currently unused and establish their own nation with only those who possess magic. So that they don't just build another imperium, with the common folk working to support their mage 'betters'.
How long though in this world of 'total freedom' until individual mages start accumulating more power drawing their less powerful peers to them as they grow with the most powerful declaring themselves leaders or 'magisters'. Leading to fantasy staple of wizards atop their towers hurling magical energy at their enemies.

Nobody wants that kind of anarchy, so the only way would be for mages and templars both to accept the governance of currently established nations. With Mages being sent establishments that out of necessity are like the circles, seperate from common folk so mages can learn to master their power without endangering people with a group to guard against blood magic and abominations. The difference being that both mages and guards would have oversight, annulment couldn't take place unless under exceptional circumstances and approval from the Lord/Teryn/King or whatever governance is in place in that nation, even then only as a last resort. Perhaps also tranquility could only be applied if both the commander and first enchanter agree and they can present evidence to an impartial third party that it needs to be applied, or the mage in question wishes to step away from his/her power and it is agreed by both the enchanter and commander.

When a mages education is succesfully completed they would then enter service to their nation/king, either by choosing to teach the next generation, an academic or research role, that of a healer or even a soldier.

They would then be allowed the same degree of freedom as any lawabiding citizen, which also entails a life of obeying the law. In the case of mages however law enforcement would need to handled by templars. So just as mages are free to move or are deployed round the country templars would be deployed so that they can react to serious mage offences, blood magic or abominations for example.

With a group akin to the seekers also in service to the king/emporor et al, as a form of secret service to watch both so as to detect and report any abuses of power which would then be dealt with as the nations law demands.

Sigh, sorry about that I didn't intend to be nearly so long winded.

Modifié par Insaner Robot, 12 août 2012 - 05:37 .

[DKJaigen]

brushyourteeth wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Mages can't win this war on their own; we'll need commoner support as well.

A plethora of people who are brainwashed into thinking mages are inherently evil because their religious leaders say so, and who were raised to think mages are cursed and belong under the heel of the templars and the Chantry?

Well, if MisterJB is right, mages can attract people like dragon cults, so we should be just fine.
More seriously, the templars will probably be hanging themselves here by pillaging the countryside for lyrium money and the like. And if what Cullen said about the Order losing popularity applies to most of Thedas... well, we'll at least have a position to dig in to.

To be honest Xilzhera you are a bit uninformed how medieval warfare works. Very simply put the common population are utterly worthless. only the ones that produce supplies for the templars should be exterminated. The rest should be ignored In war fear and moral are very important factors. I would suggest that the mages become the monsters the chantry claim them to be to completely paralyze (through the use of terror) the common people from helping the templars. The mages should focus on aquiring the service of mercenaries or gain favor with the nobility. And with the civil war in orlais  the mages have an excellent bargaining position.

So you want them to become the new Tevinter....?

Fair enough. 

Not at all but their are some factors of war that simply cannot be ignored. The templars have the support of the populace. That means an unending amount of supplies and recruits for the templars. A war of attrition is not an option (and as such gaining the support from the populace is not an option). For the mages to win they need to cut deep and hard into the templars. The reality of war sucks but any city/village that support the templars and cannot be captured should be destroyed and its populace killed of.  A horrible way to wage war but the only realistic way the mages can win the war.

[Insaner Robot]

DKJaigen wrote...

Not at all but their are some factors of war that simply cannot be ignored. The templars have the support of the populace. That means an unending amount of supplies and recruits for the templars. A war of attrition is not an option (and as such gaining the support from the populace is not an option). For the mages to win they need to cut deep and hard into the templars. The reality of war sucks but any city/village that support the templars and cannot be captured should be destroyed and its populace killed of.  A horrible way to wage war but the only realistic way the mages can win the war.

Should there be a war though?

And what comes after?

If mages win with those tactics, becoming the monsters people see the magisters as. Blood magic, fiery death from above, destruction of entire towns and any other method they require. How high is the risk they really do eventually become those monsters, assuming they aren't already, and establish a new imperium or something even worse.

Or if they lose, what then? anyone who called them monsters or abused them is suddenly justified in what they did and would continue to do. The life of mages then would make the past look like the proverbial 'bed of roses'.

If war is to happen then win or lose the mages would need to show people that they aren't monsters, that perhaps they don't desire to be magisters.

[brushyourteeth]

DKJaigen wrote...

brushyourteeth wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

To be honest Xilzhera you are a bit uninformed how medieval warfare works. Very simply put the common population are utterly worthless. only the ones that produce supplies for the templars should be exterminated. The rest should be ignored In war fear and moral are very important factors. I would suggest that the mages become the monsters the chantry claim them to be to completely paralyze (through the use of terror) the common people from helping the templars. The mages should focus on aquiring the service of mercenaries or gain favor with the nobility. And with the civil war in orlais  the mages have an excellent bargaining position.

So you want them to become the new Tevinter....?

Fair enough. 

Not at all but their are some factors of war that simply cannot be ignored. The templars have the support of the populace. That means an unending amount of supplies and recruits for the templars. A war of attrition is not an option (and as such gaining the support from the populace is not an option). For the mages to win they need to cut deep and hard into the templars. The reality of war sucks but any city/village that support the templars and cannot be captured should be destroyed and its populace killed of.  A horrible way to wage war but the only realistic way the mages can win the war.

Sadly, I have to say that I kind of agree. Mages can have their freedom, but it's going to come at a very steep cost and there's a strong chance that they'll come out looking like the bad guys - as bad or worse than the Chantry, and as bad or worse than all the folktales about them claim. Which means it's not a real victory. "Oh, mages are monsters after all - suspicions confirmed." Tragic.

Logically though, from a gamer's perspective (and not an actual Thedan's), I can see where the next game probably won't be strictly mage v. Templar - there will probably be a greater threat and a common enemy at some point that unite the causes and spark the beginnings of (better) compromise. That or Justinia really is blessed by the Maker himself and can pull this thing together. Unlikely, but what value does "likely" hold to a fantasy videogame?

[Treacherous J Slither]

The mages can win this war rather easily through guerrilla warfare and assassinations. Templars wear a uniform and are easy to spot. Mages can blend into the populace much easier and even shapeshift into inconspicuous creatures like birds and other animals.

For example: A shapeshifting blood mage in the form of a rat slips into a Templar barracks at night. Whenever a Templar is alone and out of sight of his colleagues the mage takes him out with blood magic. The mage then hides in rat form again and waits for the next oppurtunity. Or he could simply poison their water and food. The Templars would have no idea of what's going on and would probably start fighting amongst themselves believing that there is a traitor in their midst. Better yet, the mage could sneak into the knight-commanders quarters and enthrall him. Have him send his men on suicide missions, screw up supply lines etc.

A Templar versus a blood mage in one on one combat stands no chance. Even less so if said blood mage got the drop on him.

Not every mage is a blood mage but in war I guarantee that it would get very popular very fast.

[dragonflight288]

JSlither wrote...

The mages can win this war rather easily through guerrilla warfare and assassinations. Templars wear a uniform and are easy to spot. Mages can blend into the populace much easier and even shapeshift into inconspicuous creatures like birds and other animals.

For example: A shapeshifting blood mage in the form of a rat slips into a Templar barracks at night. Whenever a Templar is alone and out of sight of his colleagues the mage takes him out with blood magic. The mage then hides in rat form again and waits for the next oppurtunity. Or he could simply poison their water and food. The Templars would have no idea of what's going on and would probably start fighting amongst themselves believing that there is a traitor in their midst. Better yet, the mage could sneak into the knight-commanders quarters and enthrall him. Have him send his men on suicide missions, screw up supply lines etc.

A Templar versus a blood mage in one on one combat stands no chance. Even less so if said blood mage got the drop on him.

Not every mage is a blood mage but in war I guarantee that it would get very popular very fast.

That would only work a few times before the templars wised up to it.

Personally, and I'm probably going to be hated for this, but when it comes to strategy games of any kind, chess, war games, whatever, I have no concept of going easy or holding back.

I'm a believer in the process called total warfare. Not just hitting where the enemy is weak, avoiding where they're strong. But also depriving enemy of resources. I would raid supply lines and have an entire army starve to death, I would poison water supplies, and I would do all in my power, save murdering innocents, to keep the enemy from gathering new conscripts or recruits. I would take all the resources I could, and what I couldn't, I'd destroy so the enemy wouldn't have those resources either.

It's brutal, it's cruel, and it's unrelenting. Starving men will become desperate enough to commit great atrocities. Murder and cannabalism have been proven side effects of hungry people desperate for something, anything to eat.

But it's war. There isn't any real honor and glory on the battlefield. It's a lot of people fighting and dying for a cause. I would just want it over as soon as possible.

[DPSSOC]

So are we just dropping the whole idea that free mages won't become another Imperium or...

[DKJaigen]

DPSSOC wrote...

So are we just dropping the whole idea that free mages won't become another Imperium or...

Yeah we are. Anyone saying that free mages will turn into another empire is an idiot period.

[Treacherous J Slither]

dragonflight288 wrote...

JSlither wrote...

The mages can win this war rather easily through guerrilla warfare and assassinations. Templars wear a uniform and are easy to spot. Mages can blend into the populace much easier and even shapeshift into inconspicuous creatures like birds and other animals.

For example: A shapeshifting blood mage in the form of a rat slips into a Templar barracks at night. Whenever a Templar is alone and out of sight of his colleagues the mage takes him out with blood magic. The mage then hides in rat form again and waits for the next oppurtunity. Or he could simply poison their water and food. The Templars would have no idea of what's going on and would probably start fighting amongst themselves believing that there is a traitor in their midst. Better yet, the mage could sneak into the knight-commanders quarters and enthrall him. Have him send his men on suicide missions, screw up supply lines etc.

A Templar versus a blood mage in one on one combat stands no chance. Even less so if said blood mage got the drop on him.

Not every mage is a blood mage but in war I guarantee that it would get very popular very fast.

That would only work a few times before the templars wised up to it.

Personally, and I'm probably going to be hated for this, but when it comes to strategy games of any kind, chess, war games, whatever, I have no concept of going easy or holding back.

I'm a believer in the process called total warfare. Not just hitting where the enemy is weak, avoiding where they're strong. But also depriving enemy of resources. I would raid supply lines and have an entire army starve to death, I would poison water supplies, and I would do all in my power, save murdering innocents, to keep the enemy from gathering new conscripts or recruits. I would take all the resources I could, and what I couldn't, I'd destroy so the enemy wouldn't have those resources either.

It's brutal, it's cruel, and it's unrelenting. Starving men will become desperate enough to commit great atrocities. Murder and cannabalism have been proven side effects of hungry people desperate for something, anything to eat.

But it's war. There isn't any real honor and glory on the battlefield. It's a lot of people fighting and dying for a cause. I would just want it over as soon as possible.

I fail to see how "wising up" would render the technique ineffective. Yes I imagine that they would eventually realize that their commander is a puppet but exactly how can they prevent such a thing from happening again? 

The mages can also go "total warfare" on the Templars. As long as the mages blend into the populace and fight from the shadows they will win. In fact, they would be unstoppable. Going toe to toe on some battlefield is stupid. It is far better to hit your enemy when his back is turned so to speak. Cowardly but the results are worth it.

[GavrielKay]

DPSSOC wrote...
Mages possess social mobility, mundanes do not.  Any mage who possesses the skill and power can rise to the position of magister, it's difficult but possible.  Mundanes do not have that opportunity, they will never be able to rise to any position of power.  The best they can hope for is to rise to the point where they aren't disposable; where their master would actually have to consider the cost, time, and effort in replacing them before killing them off hand.

Ok, so reverse all of this, and it applies to the mages in the rest of Thedas.  So, if it's bad for mundanes, why isn't it bad for mages?  Why should mages be any happier about their predicament than mundanes in Tevinter?  And, if they aren't expected to be any happier, then you'd expect the same result - violent revolution.

[Insaner Robot]

The Tevinter Imperium as an example doesn't really help the mages.

Slaves in the Imperium are 'meat, chattel. They are beaten, used as fodder in the endless war against the Qunari, and even serve as components in dark magic rituals.' Quoted from the codex.

Also the slaves in tevinter do apparently try to revolt from time to time, this being the only reason the magisters stop their power struggles and work together to crush what they call sedition.

[dragonflight288]

JSlither wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

JSlither wrote...

The mages can win this war rather easily through guerrilla warfare and assassinations. Templars wear a uniform and are easy to spot. Mages can blend into the populace much easier and even shapeshift into inconspicuous creatures like birds and other animals.

For example: A shapeshifting blood mage in the form of a rat slips into a Templar barracks at night. Whenever a Templar is alone and out of sight of his colleagues the mage takes him out with blood magic. The mage then hides in rat form again and waits for the next oppurtunity. Or he could simply poison their water and food. The Templars would have no idea of what's going on and would probably start fighting amongst themselves believing that there is a traitor in their midst. Better yet, the mage could sneak into the knight-commanders quarters and enthrall him. Have him send his men on suicide missions, screw up supply lines etc.

A Templar versus a blood mage in one on one combat stands no chance. Even less so if said blood mage got the drop on him.

Not every mage is a blood mage but in war I guarantee that it would get very popular very fast.

That would only work a few times before the templars wised up to it.

Personally, and I'm probably going to be hated for this, but when it comes to strategy games of any kind, chess, war games, whatever, I have no concept of going easy or holding back.

I'm a believer in the process called total warfare. Not just hitting where the enemy is weak, avoiding where they're strong. But also depriving enemy of resources. I would raid supply lines and have an entire army starve to death, I would poison water supplies, and I would do all in my power, save murdering innocents, to keep the enemy from gathering new conscripts or recruits. I would take all the resources I could, and what I couldn't, I'd destroy so the enemy wouldn't have those resources either.

It's brutal, it's cruel, and it's unrelenting. Starving men will become desperate enough to commit great atrocities. Murder and cannabalism have been proven side effects of hungry people desperate for something, anything to eat.

But it's war. There isn't any real honor and glory on the battlefield. It's a lot of people fighting and dying for a cause. I would just want it over as soon as possible.

I fail to see how "wising up" would render the technique ineffective. Yes I imagine that they would eventually realize that their commander is a puppet but exactly how can they prevent such a thing from happening again? 

The mages can also go "total warfare" on the Templars. As long as the mages blend into the populace and fight from the shadows they will win. In fact, they would be unstoppable. Going toe to toe on some battlefield is stupid. It is far better to hit your enemy when his back is turned so to speak. Cowardly but the results are worth it.

Let me use a scene from the movie "The Patriot" with Mel Gibson.

He is based on the Swamp Fox of the Revolutionary War, and his guerilla tactics had them winning against the British almost all the time, stealing supplies, plans, and keeping the British in the south. So Cornwallis and the British wised up to these tactics, and arranged an ambush. The next caravan sent wasn't packed with supplies, but with several hidden soldiers. The militia was forced to retreat, several died, and 18 were captured and sentenced to hang for treason to the crown.

The same tactics don't always work continually, the other side learns how to counter them. If I played six games of chess, but used the same opening every time, my opponents would quickly know how to upset my starting game.

[Treacherous J Slither]

dragonflight288 wrote...

JSlither wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

JSlither wrote...

The mages can win this war rather easily through guerrilla warfare and assassinations. Templars wear a uniform and are easy to spot. Mages can blend into the populace much easier and even shapeshift into inconspicuous creatures like birds and other animals.

For example: A shapeshifting blood mage in the form of a rat slips into a Templar barracks at night. Whenever a Templar is alone and out of sight of his colleagues the mage takes him out with blood magic. The mage then hides in rat form again and waits for the next oppurtunity. Or he could simply poison their water and food. The Templars would have no idea of what's going on and would probably start fighting amongst themselves believing that there is a traitor in their midst. Better yet, the mage could sneak into the knight-commanders quarters and enthrall him. Have him send his men on suicide missions, screw up supply lines etc.

A Templar versus a blood mage in one on one combat stands no chance. Even less so if said blood mage got the drop on him.

Not every mage is a blood mage but in war I guarantee that it would get very popular very fast.

That would only work a few times before the templars wised up to it.

Personally, and I'm probably going to be hated for this, but when it comes to strategy games of any kind, chess, war games, whatever, I have no concept of going easy or holding back.

I'm a believer in the process called total warfare. Not just hitting where the enemy is weak, avoiding where they're strong. But also depriving enemy of resources. I would raid supply lines and have an entire army starve to death, I would poison water supplies, and I would do all in my power, save murdering innocents, to keep the enemy from gathering new conscripts or recruits. I would take all the resources I could, and what I couldn't, I'd destroy so the enemy wouldn't have those resources either.

It's brutal, it's cruel, and it's unrelenting. Starving men will become desperate enough to commit great atrocities. Murder and cannabalism have been proven side effects of hungry people desperate for something, anything to eat.

But it's war. There isn't any real honor and glory on the battlefield. It's a lot of people fighting and dying for a cause. I would just want it over as soon as possible.

I fail to see how "wising up" would render the technique ineffective. Yes I imagine that they would eventually realize that their commander is a puppet but exactly how can they prevent such a thing from happening again? 

The mages can also go "total warfare" on the Templars. As long as the mages blend into the populace and fight from the shadows they will win. In fact, they would be unstoppable. Going toe to toe on some battlefield is stupid. It is far better to hit your enemy when his back is turned so to speak. Cowardly but the results are worth it.

Let me use a scene from the movie "The Patriot" with Mel Gibson.

He is based on the Swamp Fox of the Revolutionary War, and his guerilla tactics had them winning against the British almost all the time, stealing supplies, plans, and keeping the British in the south. So Cornwallis and the British wised up to these tactics, and arranged an ambush. The next caravan sent wasn't packed with supplies, but with several hidden soldiers. The militia was forced to retreat, several died, and 18 were captured and sentenced to hang for treason to the crown.

The same tactics don't always work continually, the other side learns how to counter them. If I played six games of chess, but used the same opening every time, my opponents would quickly know how to upset my starting game.

I agree completely that the same tactic won't always work. However, you're Swamp Fox is no mage. If the Templar supply caravans were fireballed, hidden soldiers would simply burn and die. If the mages used blood magic they could just force the soldiers to kill each other and then take the supplies for themselves. If a bunch of mages get the drop on you, you're dead. What counter could there possibly be to a mage ambush?

Also, that **** blood mage was able to enthrall people with a few words and a stare. She wasn't even powerful. Imagine the damage a few dozen of her ability can do. Let alone hundreds of stronger ones. The Templars stand no chance.

[DPSSOC]

DKJaigen wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

So are we just dropping the whole idea that free mages won't become another Imperium or...

Yeah we are. Anyone saying that free mages will turn into another empire is an idiot period.

I think you misunderstood me.  If mages were to use the tactics people here are talking about employing it wouldn't end with the Templars.  Taking the total war example any commoners who aren't rendered destitute by the mages stealing all the supplies they prepare for the Templars will probably have their livelihoods burned to the ground (and be destitute because of that).  Governments aren't going to take kindly to that kind of behaviour so they are going to get involved which means it will likely be the mages against the world.  The only way mages could achieve victory would be to decimate and dominate every world power with the possible exception of Tevinter.  They aren't just going to be able to put up their gloves once the Templars were beat and get along with things.

[DPSSOC]

JSlither wrote...
I agree completely that the same tactic won't always work. However, you're Swamp Fox is no mage. If the Templar supply caravans were fireballed, hidden soldiers would simply burn and die.

 
Generally if you're ambushing supply lines it's because you want the supplies, especially for the mages as theft is probably going to be the only way they'll be able to get anything.

JSlither wrote...
If the mages used blood magic they could just force the soldiers to kill each other and then take the supplies for themselves. If a bunch of mages get the drop on you, you're dead. What counter could there possibly be to a mage ambush?

Depends; straight up magic assault the Templars have abilities to deal with.  Mind Domination there's the Litany, various magic items the Templars have no doubt stored to make them more resistant to various types of magic.  Not to mention if they can hold onto a few Tranquil they can keep making more.  Keep in mind the Templars are an army and I have little doubt this is a war they've been preparing for for some time.

This is of course working on the assumption that the mages, who've had no martial instruction ever, could plan and execute a successful ambush.  Also the assumption that one or more of them doesn't become an abomination because they've suffered a wound and start panicking.

[brushyourteeth]

DKJaigen wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

So are we just dropping the whole idea that free mages won't become another Imperium or...

Yeah we are. Anyone saying that free mages will turn into another empire is an idiot period.

Looks like I'm a proud idiot then!

People will eventually abuse their power if there aren't significant repercussions to deter them. Mages, non-mages, Chantry, non-Chantry - it doesn't matter. The mages would be foolish to go into this thing with a "We could never end up like Tevinter" type of attitude. The only difference between other mages and Tevinter ones now that they have their independence is time and geography. They need to carefully police themselves in order to avoid being policed by others or corrupted into something they'd be ashamed of.

[Xilizhra]

The only difference between other mages and Tevinter ones now that they have their independence is time and geography.

And thousands of years of a slaveholding culture?

[brushyourteeth]

Xilizhra wrote...

The only difference between other mages and Tevinter ones now that they have their independence is time and geography.

And thousands of years of a slaveholding culture?

Like I said - time. 

[Xilizhra]

brushyourteeth wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

The only difference between other mages and Tevinter ones now that they have their independence is time and geography.

And thousands of years of a slaveholding culture?

Like I said - time. 

That's a fairly significant difference. The only difference between any group of people ever and any other group of people ever, by that standard, is time and geography.

[LolaLei]

That's the problem, there's always gonna be people that spoil it for the rest. For all the good intentions, eventually a few people within that group will spoil/corrupt it for everyone else. Humanity eh! (I dare say Elves are just as bad, the Dwarves certainly seem to be!)

[brushyourteeth]

Xilizhra wrote...

brushyourteeth wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

The only difference between other mages and Tevinter ones now that they have their independence is time and geography.

And thousands of years of a slaveholding culture?

Like I said - time. 

That's a fairly significant difference. The only difference between any group of people ever and any other group of people ever, by that standard, is time and geography.

I was pointing specifically to the corruption that power inevitably brings to anyone who isn't proactive about examining and policing themselves - but I'd say we're on the same page.

I don't have any problem with the mages - I'm rooting for them. But they need to go into this thing with all eyes open. The only way to "beat" the Chantry is to be better than them, not just stronger or more clever than them. If they become everything the Chantry accuses them of being, the Chantry still wins and they trade Chantry imprisonment for a life and legacy of enslavement to the worst human nature has to offer. Like Malcolm said, "My magic will serve that which is best in me, not that which is most base." If I didn't think the mages could achieve that, I'd be indifferent to their escaping the Circle system - but they need to kick their own butts to achieve it.

We all have to make that choice in our own small ways. Their situation is just a bit more ground-breaking and history-making.

It'll be a tough road, especially for people who have their fair share of anger ready to boil over and who have (most of them) never learned to function out in the real world. They need to at least be able to take a long hard look at themselves and decide what kind of future for mages they want to build, besides just "free" (which granted, is a good start, but can still lead to a terrible finish).