235 réponses à ce sujet

[Endorlf]

If Synthesis indeed indoctrinates and brainwashes everyone, then do the Reapers even bother rebuilding shattered planets and civilizations? How does that forward their agenda? How does that even forward the Catalyst's agenda?

Modifié par Endorlf, 06 août 2012 - 06:49 .

[Applepie_Svk]

With space magic they rewrote everyone and made them own... everyone is now Reaper - so why the hell not

[Ranger Jack Walker]

Because Synthesis being indoctrination is headcanon and headcanons are rarely well thought out.

[Endorlf]

Applepie_Svk wrote...

With space magic they rewrote everyone and made them own... everyone is now Reaper - so why the hell not

You're simply shifting the burden of proof. The question is why. Moreover, by looking at the different cutscenes, the civilizations after being rebuilt looks almost identical to the civilizations that were rebuilt in Destroy. Why would the Reapers want to do this?

Modifié par Endorlf, 06 août 2012 - 06:54 .

[MerchantGOL]

Synthesis doesn't brainwash people

[The Angry One]

Why wouldn't they? The Reapers are now permanently in charge.
Do you think Reapers are above building and maintaining infrastructure for those they manipulate? Who do you think built the relays in the first place?

[Applepie_Svk]

Endorlf wrote...

Applepie_Svk wrote...

With space magic they rewrote everyone and made them own... everyone is now Reaper - so why the hell not

You're simply shifting the burden of proof. The question is why.

Reapers are hybrids created from mass of DNA and metal, with synthesis you force both synthetics and organics in same way, the synthetics gain organic material and organics gain hardware - what else you want ?

Proof is thin as toilet paper, because the Stargazer is obviously living in different future without Reapers and synthesis.

[Endorlf]

The Angry One wrote...

Why wouldn't they? The Reapers are now permanently in charge.
Do you think Reapers are above building and maintaining infrastructure for those they manipulate? Who do you think built the relays in the first place?

But if they can manipulate, then why bother? How does rebuilding devastated worlds, and preserving the architectural style, help them at all?

Also, why is everyone shifting the burden of proof by asking why not? Is brainwashing such an abundantly clear attribute of Synthesis?

Modifié par Endorlf, 06 août 2012 - 07:01 .

[ATiBotka]

Ah this thread again.

[The Angry One]

Endorlf wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Why wouldn't they? The Reapers are now permanently in charge.
Do you think Reapers are above building and maintaining infrastructure for those they manipulate? Who do you think built the relays in the first place?

But if they can manipulate, then why bother? How does rebuilding devastated worlds, and preserving the architectural style, help them at all?

How doesn't it? It keeps the masses obedient and happy.
Indoctrination is not true control in the sense that you force someone's body to work against their will (yeah yeah stupid TIM scene), it works by subverting the mind until a person thinks that what they want and what the Reapers want are one and the same.
Maintaining a familiar enviroment will only help the Reapers maintain order.

Modifié par The Angry One, 06 août 2012 - 07:03 .

[GreyLycanTrope]

I just can't get over how creepy all those, glowing eyes and smiling is. I would be outraged if someone rewrote my genes, why is everyone smiling? Something's rotten in the state of Denmark.

[Endorlf]

The Angry One wrote...

Endorlf wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Why wouldn't they? The Reapers are now permanently in charge.
Do you think Reapers are above building and maintaining infrastructure for those they manipulate? Who do you think built the relays in the first place?

But if they can manipulate, then why bother? How does rebuilding devastated worlds, and preserving the architectural style, help them at all?

How doesn't it? It keeps the masses obedient and happy.
Indoctrination is not true control in the sense that you force someone's body to work against their will (yeah yeah stupid TIM scene), it works by subverting the mind until a person thinks that what they want and what the Reapers want are one and the same.
Maintaining a familiar enviroment will only help the Reapers maintain order.

So why only partial indoctrination then? If deep indoctrination can achieve the same thing of making the masses happy, then why bother with all that work of rebuilding?

[Hackulator]

This is the logical fallacy that is being comitted by the people in the "synthesis is brainwashing camp." Its never shown ar stated, yet they take it as a given b ecause they don't like the concept.

[The Angry One]

Endorlf wrote...

So why only partial indoctrination then? If deep indoctrination can achieve the same thing of making the masses happy, then why bother with all that work of rebuilding?

Because standard indoctrination, even long term, eventually turns the victim into a puppet with no will at all, who will stand around and die of exposure without Reaper input.
Synthesis allows for more balanced control.

Hackulator wrote...

This
is the logical fallacy that is being comitted by the people in the
"synthesis is brainwashing camp." Its never shown ar stated, yet they
take it as a given b ecause they don't like the concept.

The proof is in the EC ending. We have yet to see any suitable explanation as to why people would tolerate Reapers working alongside them mere weeks/months after a war in which Reapers murdered and mutilated their loved ones.

Modifié par The Angry One, 06 août 2012 - 07:06 .

[Endorlf]

Applepie_Svk wrote...

Endorlf wrote...

Applepie_Svk wrote...

With space magic they rewrote everyone and made them own... everyone is now Reaper - so why the hell not

You're simply shifting the burden of proof. The question is why.

Reapers are hybrids created from mass of DNA and metal, with synthesis you force both synthetics and organics in same way, the synthetics gain organic material and organics gain hardware - what else you want ?

Proof is thin as toilet paper, because the Stargazer is obviously living in different future without Reapers and synthesis.

What I'm seeing from your argument is "cyborgs, therefore brainwashing." Sorry, but I don't follow...

Modifié par Endorlf, 06 août 2012 - 07:09 .

[Memnon]

They are under some form of control, or they have total free will - the exact same kind of free will they had before they got hit by the green beam. So what about the green beam is going to make a marine forgive and forget about his family that was murdered and turned into husks/cannibals/etc. Billions upon billions were slaughtered ... children, wives, husbands. If the organics have free will, I don't know that anyone can convince me they won't want to get revenge on the Reapers and their abominations, synthesized or not

[AresKeith]

no one asked for there DNA to be rewritten and I doubt anyone even wanted that, then all of a sudden there all happy, thats not right

[MegaSovereign]

There is no evidence of Synthesis brainwashing people. People still seem to keep their individuality in the Synthesis ending.

Modifié par MegaSovereign, 06 août 2012 - 07:08 .

[Endorlf]

The Angry One wrote...

Endorlf wrote...

So why only partial indoctrination then? If deep indoctrination can achieve the same thing of making the masses happy, then why bother with all that work of rebuilding?

Because standard indoctrination, even long term, eventually turns the victim into a puppet with no will at all, who will stand around and die of exposure without Reaper input.
Synthesis allows for more balanced control.

Is the welfare of indoctrinated individuals even a problem for the Reapers? Is indoctrination so severe that it prevents indoctrinated individuals from being able to even eat and perform basic bodily functions?

[Hackulator]

The Angry One wrote...

Hackulator wrote...

This
is the logical fallacy that is being comitted by the people in the
"synthesis is brainwashing camp." Its never shown ar stated, yet they
take it as a given b ecause they don't like the concept.

The proof is in the EC ending. We have yet to see any suitable explanation as to why people would tolerate Reapers working alongside them mere weeks/months after a war in which Reapers murdered and mutilated their loved ones.

That is not proof. You do not seem to understand the meaning of the word proof. That is a scenario. You are offering up an explanation for that scenario, but you are giving no actual proof you are simply saying "the truth is self evident." You are making an argument of the same logical quality as most devoutly religious people make to prove the existence of god. In other words, there is no logic at all.

[MegaSovereign]

AresKeith wrote...

no one asked for there DNA to be rewritten and I doubt anyone even wanted that, then all of a sudden there all happy, thats not right

There could be off-screen skepticism to the event.

Bioware just wanted to make every ending seem happy. It's the same reason why Bioware didn't show the Geth/EDI dying in the Destroy ending.

[Endorlf]

Stornskar wrote...

They are under some form of control, or they have total free will - the exact same kind of free will they had before they got hit by the green beam. So what about the green beam is going to make a marine forgive and forget about his family that was murdered and turned into husks/cannibals/etc. Billions upon billions were slaughtered ... children, wives, husbands. If the organics have free will, I don't know that anyone can convince me they won't want to get revenge on the Reapers and their abominations, synthesized or not

The similar situation where people accept the Reapers in Control puts your argument into question.

[Hrothdane]

Endorlf wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Endorlf wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Why wouldn't they? The Reapers are now permanently in charge.
Do you think Reapers are above building and maintaining infrastructure for those they manipulate? Who do you think built the relays in the first place?

But if they can manipulate, then why bother? How does rebuilding devastated worlds, and preserving the architectural style, help them at all?

How doesn't it? It keeps the masses obedient and happy.
Indoctrination is not true control in the sense that you force someone's body to work against their will (yeah yeah stupid TIM scene), it works by subverting the mind until a person thinks that what they want and what the Reapers want are one and the same.
Maintaining a familiar enviroment will only help the Reapers maintain order.

So why only partial indoctrination then? If deep indoctrination can achieve the same thing of making the masses happy, then why bother with all that work of rebuilding?

Full indoctrination leaves the victim completely helpless and without autonomy. Partial indoctrination doesn't burn out the victims' brains as quickly, but still leaves their thought processes warped enough that the victims will justify their own actions.

Why put in extra effort if you don't have to? Quite ingenious on the Reapers' part, really.

[Endorlf]

The Angry One wrote...

Hackulator wrote...

This
is the logical fallacy that is being comitted by the people in the
"synthesis is brainwashing camp." Its never shown ar stated, yet they
take it as a given b ecause they don't like the concept.

The proof is in the EC ending. We have yet to see any suitable explanation as to why people would tolerate Reapers working alongside them mere weeks/months after a war in which Reapers murdered and mutilated their loved ones.

And what about Control? And what about the Geth/Quarian peace? How can the Quarians ever cooperate if their families were devastated by Geth forces? What about all the bad blood about the Krogans? Why would the Turians ever accept their help?

Modifié par Endorlf, 06 août 2012 - 07:13 .