235 réponses à ce sujet

[Applepie_Svk]

dreman9999 wrote...

Machines are slave to there programing ifthey can'r change it. 

Say it again - like more gooby ... It´s reason why Geths isolate themselves and start buiding own Dyson Spehere because they were programmed to build a Dyson Sphere ? If Geths were running on their programming than they wouldn´t be war...
No they wasn´t - they was programmed to serve on purpose but with day when they start deffending themselves that day their programming become irrelevant - it´s why it calls AI.

[saracen16]

[quote]Ticonderoga117 wrote...

[quote]saracen16 wrote...
The logic of the Catalyst is that organic-synthetic conflict is inevitable, not impossible. Diplomacy would never work in such a setting as it is only temporary.[/quote]

So? Does that mean we should say "F U Iran, I'm dropping the bomb on you!" because diplomacy is only temporary? Please, that's a stupid way to go about managing the world, never mind the Galaxy.[/quote]

Don't make up arguments that I did not propose. What I said was that conflict between synthetics and organics is inevitable, not impossible. The conflict between synthetics and organics in ME3 is based on fundamental differences between the two species and fear of the "other", not on what the conflicts of the modern age are based on. I didn't say anything about organic-organic conflicts in THIS day and age.

Diplomacy is not based on tempering a nation's innate desire to destroy, but rather on tempering the desire to seek control over what is different. Iran is a human power, just like the rest of us. Diplomacy with it and any other power like Israel would work insofar as it would with any other power interested in conflict for the sake of political or territorial gain. There are many factors involved that would make us want to avoid conflict in this setting. In our age, it's scenarios of M.A.D., resources, and other interests. Diplomacy is imperative because it can work. It doesn't when the factors involved are too alien from one another, and interests differ drastically.

[quote][quote]
The Catalyst does discriminate between advanced species and non-advanced species. Of course the Creators disapproved of its solution because the Creators were an advanced race.
[/quote]

And? They're gonna kill them off in 50k years![/quote]

But not the other species that have not advanced yet. And this keeps going on and on. Next cycle, it will be the Yahg who will be Reaperised if this cycle was allowed to continue, while the less developed species of the next cycle will continue to develop, and so on and so forth. The choice is in your hands. 

[quote][quote]What mattered is that they struck the home planets. They effectively crippled the advanced civilizations before they had any chance to mount a counter-offensive against them. The turians managed to do well but eventually they had to retreat near the end of the game.
[/quote]

Crippled? So we managed to hold them off and build the largest waste of resources this side of Mars while crippled? Seriously?[/quote]

You considered it a waste. I consider it a proper use of resources. Everything the allied forces were doing was for survival. This was never about strategy and tactics. Every action Hackett and the Alliance were doing after discovery of the Crucible blueprints was to buy time for Shepard to get alliances to build and deliver the Crucible, the death knell of the Reaper cycle. 

[quote][quote]I've had enough of your disingenuous assertions. Really. The leaders are not morons. They simply are not foolish, and there's a line between bravery and foolishness. The leaders have tried outright assault even with the might of the krogans at the side of the turians, and they still managed to only slow down the Reapers. The Reapers have to be stopped, and only the Crucible can do that. Do you want to rewrite the entire story of the trilogy? Be my guest.[/quote]

They ARE.
Council: We believe in the Reaper threat. *5 min later* What threat?
Hackett: I'm going to lose an entire fleet, and then when we fight the final battle, simply charge them.
Anderson: Allos Udina to be Councilor. Charges a skyscrapper without trying to distract it. At all. Or, send in a bloody infiltrator team with cloaks to reach the beam![/quote]

The Council is not stupid. They are making decisions that would affect the lives of trillions every day. They don't go on wild goose chases at the time based on conjectures from one person. If I was in their place, I wouldn't believe Shepard in the slightest until I see the Reapers for myself. Hackett lost the entire fleet because he was caught by surprise, and admits to his mistake. A leader can not be expected to be flawless. As for Anderson? He knew what he was doing.

And what makes you think the Reapers don't have infrared-vision?

[quote]Dalatrass Linron: I can't let you do that commander! Even if we might die because of it, I must be a complete b*tch to you and your team.
The Defense Committee: We don't know what to do!
Everyone who built the Crucible: We are building something that is incomplete that can bankrupt what we have left and we HAVE NO IDEA WHAT IT DOES. Nor will we test it, because that makes too much sense.[/quote]

Isn't it worth trying at least? The previous cycles couldn't, but this is the first cycle that tried. Anything that can stop the Reapers is worth any cost.

[quote]The Quarian Admiralty: Attack the Geth instead of asking "Hey, do you mind if we have our planet back?"
The Geth: Joining with the Reapers. At all.[/quote]

The Quarians attacked the planet because they were selfish and had their own political desires with the Reapers crawling about. Yes, that does make them morons, but that has nothing to do with proving your statement as a whole. The Geth? They were being attacked and the Reapers made them an offer. For sure I would want to make a deal with the devil if the survival of my race is being threatened. Hell, the reason they did so is because many geth platforms died, and their intelligence dimmed to the point of prioritizing survival. That doesn't, however, make them "morons". 

[quote]Every trooper in that one scene against the Destroyer on Earth: Trying to kill a destroyer without anything heavier in firepower THAN A GRENADE LAUNCHER. CAINs or Fleets!
Shepard: Everything involving GlowBrat except the refuse speech. He then goes stupid again when he shuts up.[/quote]

Not at all. Shepard knew what he was doing. He was supposed to use the Crucible as per his orders, and he knows that the Crucible is the only way to stop the Reapers. The Crucible is a design from the organics, not the Reapers, and thus its function is purely an anti-Reaper weapon. Also, the Catalyst has no reason to lie: it's a machine. As for those troops, they were doing what every other soldier was expected to do at that time: fight. But yes, I do concur that what they did was stupid but that still does not prove your statement.

[quote]Thane: Not shooting KL.[/quote]

Having KL focus his energy on Thane would give Shepard a chance to chase him away. I'd say that Thane's sacrifice was not in vain.

[quote]TIM: Implanting troops with REAPER TECH while REAPERS are invading. [/quote]

...and studying methods of controlling Reaper tech and by extension Reapers themselves. Everything Cerberus has done has shot themselves in the foot, but that doesn't mean they're stupid. Just fascist.

[quote][quote]
And you failed to respond to the fact that the Reapers are not evil.
[/quote]

Because they are. Period.

[/quote]

And I'm supposed to believe you without proof. Unlike you, I don't subscribe to moral absolutism, and unlike you, I have yet to see a post from you that I have not responded to in this thread.

And I'll say it again: YOU FAILED TO PROVE THAT THE REAPERS ARE EVIL.

[Sweawm]

saracen16 wrote...

And I'll say it again: YOU FAILED TO PROVE THAT THE REAPERS ARE EVIL.

If Reapers wern't evil, then I have no idea why the entire trilogy was based on fighting them.
There's Sovereign, looking down on all organics with scorn, then there's even Harbinger, who's totally sadistic altogether as the eldest Reaper. Even if Stargod whatever controls the Reapers, they individually have their own personalities and all those personalities have ever shown is nothing but sadistic evil.

And suddenly Sythesis makes them want to be friends with organics? I say no to that. Why would the Reapers stop now just because somebody says so? 

At best, they simply have no moral boundries altogether, but at the visible thing is this: evil. 

Modifié par Sweawm, 07 août 2012 - 09:03 .

[Baldrick67]

MerchantGOL wrote...

Synthesis doesn't brainwash people

Yep it does as you now suddenly understand synthetics.

Otherwise it would be like giving a man a boob job and him suddenly completely understanding what it is to be female.

[His Name was HYR!!]

 
http://social.biowar...543058#13544267 

[saracen16]

Sweawm wrote...

saracen16 wrote...

And I'll say it again: YOU FAILED TO PROVE THAT THE REAPERS ARE EVIL.

If Reapers wern't evil, then I have no idea why the entire trilogy was based on fighting them.
There's Sovereign, looking down on all organics with scorn, then there's even Harbinger, who's totally sadistic altogether as the eldest Reaper. Even if Stargod whatever controls the Reapers, they individually have their own personalities and all those personalities have ever shown is nothing but sadistic evil.

And suddenly Sythesis makes them want to be friends with organics? I say no to that. Why would the Reapers stop now just because somebody says so? 

At best, they simply have no moral boundries altogether, but at the visible thing is this: evil. 

Machines are not bound by morals, but rather by logic and a relentlessness to carry out what they were programmed to do. The quotes of Sovereign and Harbinger are just products of that. And to say that the Reapers are evil simply because we are fighting them is like saying that the machines in Matrix were evil simply because we are fighting them.

[MysticSpace]

Endorlf wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Hackulator wrote...

This
is the logical fallacy that is being comitted by the people in the
"synthesis is brainwashing camp." Its never shown ar stated, yet they
take it as a given b ecause they don't like the concept.

The proof is in the EC ending. We have yet to see any suitable explanation as to why people would tolerate Reapers working alongside them mere weeks/months after a war in which Reapers murdered and mutilated their loved ones.

And what about Control? And what about the Geth/Quarian peace? How can the Quarians ever cooperate if their families were devastated by Geth forces? What about all the bad blood about the Krogans? Why would the Turians ever accept their help?

We get along with Japan and they bombed us in WW2.  We fought England a couple of centuries ago and now we're allies, it'll take time but the wounds can be healed...assuming someone doesn't take the bandage off too soon and poor salt into them.

[Memnon]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

 
http://social.biowar...543058#13544267 

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/13541120/1#13541470 <_<

Modifié par Stornskar, 07 août 2012 - 01:55 .

[Endorlf]

Stornskar wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

 
http://social.biowar...543058#13544267 

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/13541120/1#13541470 <_<

Lets take a look at this scenario. If the Reapers indoctrinated everyone, why can't they come up with an elaborate explanation on how they're unable to help? Alternately, why can't they simply remove their presence and hide? If their presence is hidden, then people wouldn't try to look at the Reapers as free helpers. I'm sorry, but if your intent is to pacify a mildly indoctrinated population, there are simply much better, less energy consuming alternatives than rebuilding and even preserving architectural culture.

The headcanon of indoctrinated-yet-not-indoctrinated-enough just sounds like some really convenient handwave, not that there isn't enough of that in the game already.

Also, how do you sustain an indoctrinated population? Major races races like the humans, Turians, and Quarians don't reproduce until they're around 20, or even older in the case of Krogans and Asari. Can indoctrination last that long without turning them into "gibbering animals?" 

Modifié par Endorlf, 07 août 2012 - 05:09 .

[Endorlf]

MysticSpace wrote...

Endorlf wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Hackulator wrote...

This
is the logical fallacy that is being comitted by the people in the
"synthesis is brainwashing camp." Its never shown ar stated, yet they
take it as a given b ecause they don't like the concept.

The proof is in the EC ending. We have yet to see any suitable explanation as to why people would tolerate Reapers working alongside them mere weeks/months after a war in which Reapers murdered and mutilated their loved ones.

And what about Control? And what about the Geth/Quarian peace? How can the Quarians ever cooperate if their families were devastated by Geth forces? What about all the bad blood about the Krogans? Why would the Turians ever accept their help?

We get along with Japan and they bombed us in WW2.  We fought England a couple of centuries ago and now we're allies, it'll take time but the wounds can be healed...assuming someone doesn't take the bandage off too soon and poor salt into them.

Try not to make World War 2 comparisons. People here seem touchy about those.

[His Name was HYR!!]

Stornskar wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

 
http://social.biowar...543058#13544267 

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/13541120/1#13541470 <_<

The question is, "why did everyone just forgive-and-forget?"

Among many answers I could give, I think my best is... maybe they haven't. Maybe there are still many people we don't see who have issues with the Reapers that we just don't see. Afterall, the epilogue is just EDI's perspective, not of someone who is expressly opposed to the change in the state of things.

The scene of the marine and the husk is one where, IMO, any hard feelings are put aside for the moment as much bigger developments are taking place. After it's all said-and-done, who knows. Maybe that marine goes around and kills husks in his spare time.

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 07 août 2012 - 06:59 .