235 réponses à ce sujet

[The Angry One]

Hackulator wrote...
That is not proof. You do not seem to understand the meaning of the word proof. That is a scenario. You are offering up an explanation for that scenario, but you are giving no actual proof you are simply saying "the truth is self evident." You are making an argument of the same logical quality as most devoutly religious people make to prove the existence of god. In other words, there is no logic at all.

It is evidence. That cannot be explained by synthesis supporters, but fits neatly within established facts about indoctrination.

[Endorlf]

Hrothdane wrote...

Endorlf wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Endorlf wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Why wouldn't they? The Reapers are now permanently in charge.
Do you think Reapers are above building and maintaining infrastructure for those they manipulate? Who do you think built the relays in the first place?

But if they can manipulate, then why bother? How does rebuilding devastated worlds, and preserving the architectural style, help them at all?

How doesn't it? It keeps the masses obedient and happy.
Indoctrination is not true control in the sense that you force someone's body to work against their will (yeah yeah stupid TIM scene), it works by subverting the mind until a person thinks that what they want and what the Reapers want are one and the same.
Maintaining a familiar enviroment will only help the Reapers maintain order.

So why only partial indoctrination then? If deep indoctrination can achieve the same thing of making the masses happy, then why bother with all that work of rebuilding?

Full indoctrination leaves the victim completely helpless and without autonomy. Partial indoctrination doesn't burn out the victims' brains as quickly, but still leaves their thought processes warped enough that the victims will justify their own actions.

Why put in extra effort if you don't have to? Quite ingenious on the Reapers' part, really.

So instead of the extra effort to indoctrinate, they put extra effort into rebuilding?

[Taboo]

It may not indoctrinate but it certainly makes me laugh...AUDIBLY.

[Endorlf]

The Angry One wrote...

Hackulator wrote...
That is not proof. You do not seem to understand the meaning of the word proof. That is a scenario. You are offering up an explanation for that scenario, but you are giving no actual proof you are simply saying "the truth is self evident." You are making an argument of the same logical quality as most devoutly religious people make to prove the existence of god. In other words, there is no logic at all.

It is evidence. That cannot be explained by synthesis supporters, but fits neatly within established facts about indoctrination.

Yet the Reapers allow the crew of the Normandy to remember Shepard. They spend considerable energy rebuilding civilizations because their indoctrination can't keep people happy and healthy at the same time?

Evidence isn't enough. Your evidence against Synthesis can be invalidated by another headcanon, just as you are invalidating pro-synthesis arguments with your headcanon. Is your headcanon inherently correct?

But how do you explain the Geth/Quarian peace then? And why do people accept Reapers in Control?

Spending all the energy to rebuild civilizations seem like wasted effort if they're not concerned about the welfare of indoctrinated individuals.

Modifié par Endorlf, 06 août 2012 - 07:24 .

[Baronesa]

Endorlf wrote...

But how do you explain the Geth/Quarian peace then? And why do people accept Reapers in Control?

That is evidence that you don't need synthesis to achieve peace between organics and synthetics... in fact that peace disproves the whole premise presented by the catalyst, and without that premise, all 3 solutions are meaningless

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

The Angry One wrote...

Endorlf wrote...

So why only partial indoctrination then? If deep indoctrination can achieve the same thing of making the masses happy, then why bother with all that work of rebuilding?

Because standard indoctrination, even long term, eventually turns the victim into a puppet with no will at all, who will stand around and die of exposure without Reaper input.
Synthesis allows for more balanced control.

Hackulator wrote...

This
is the logical fallacy that is being comitted by the people in the
"synthesis is brainwashing camp." Its never shown ar stated, yet they
take it as a given b ecause they don't like the concept.

The proof is in the EC ending. We have yet to see any suitable explanation as to why people would tolerate Reapers working alongside them mere weeks/months after a war in which Reapers murdered and mutilated their loved ones.

It's the same as in Control. You're not seeing the ending as the people on the worlds. You're seeing the ending as Shepard. You're indoctrinated.

[Endorlf]

Baronesa wrote...

Endorlf wrote...

But how do you explain the Geth/Quarian peace then? And why do people accept Reapers in Control?

That is evidence that you don't need synthesis to achieve peace between organics and synthetics... in fact that peace disproves the whole premise presented by the catalyst, and without that premise, all 3 solutions are meaningless

That's not my argument. The statement is that with so much bad blood with the Reapers, how can anyone possibly accept them. My point is that given all the bad blood about the Geth from the Quarians, how can any Quarians possibly accept them?

In addition, the Krogans used extremely brutal tactics during the Rebellions, to the point of using asteroids as weapons on colonies. Given their history and bad blood, how can anyone possibly accept them?

Modifié par Endorlf, 06 août 2012 - 07:20 .

[The Angry One]

Endorlf wrote...

But how do you explain the Geth/Quarian peace then?

They don't need synthesis for peace.

And why do people accept Reapers in Control?

Do we see perfectly content people next to Reapers in control? No, we don't.

Spending all the energy to rebuild civilizations seem like wasted effort if they're not concerned about the welfare of indoctrinated individuals.

They're concerned about maintaining order, and rebuilding infrastructure is as good a way as any to do that.

[Applepie_Svk]

Endorlf wrote...


And what about Control? And what about the Geth/Quarian peace? How can the Quarians ever cooperate if their families were devastated by Geth forces? What about all the bad blood about the Krogans? Why would the Turians ever accept their help?

That´s the problem, I mean Geth/Quarian peace everyone knew it will take a time - maybe 1 or 2 generations til they forgive each other but with Synthesis it´s simply massive change of behavior against Reapers from hostile to friends like would nothing happened... It´s natural that time will heal the wounds and not space magic, imagine that WW2 would end with bomb of friendship... rly ?

Modifié par Applepie_Svk, 06 août 2012 - 07:21 .

[guacamayus]

I'm still waiting for someone to prove how synthesis brainwashes everyone without using some absurd head cannon, and that probably won't happen because after the singularity there's no need to control anyone, shepard's choice stops the cycle and solves the catalyst's problem.

And mostly because it makes no sense, the reapers never wanted order in the sense of 'perfect society', their goal was to prevent the singularity they couldn't care less if everyone plays nice to eachother, in fact sometimes they even created conflict to further their agenda so no, they don't need to control everyone because it achieves nothing, secrecy and control of certain influential individuals is how they used to do things.

Is it really that hard to believe what's on screen? most people take destroy or control literally, why is synthesis different?

[Ticonderoga117]

Endorlf wrote...

That's not my argument. The statement is that with so much bad blood with the Reapers, how can anyone possibly accept them. My point is that given all the bad blood about the Geth from the Quarians, how can any Quarians possibly accept them?

For the Reapers, I have no idea. I don't get it, these machines of dubious nature (Do they have free will ala ME1 and 2 or are they puppets ala GlowBrat) have killed untold billions all in the name of a "maybe". They pervert life to suit thier own needs. How anyone can sit back and say "Yeah, I don't mind working with these things" is beyond me.

The Geth, however, are different. There hasn't been open conflict between the Geth and Quarians for 300 years and the Quarians just want to go home. The Geth just don't want to be shot at. Only the two stupid Admirals (Xen and Gerrel) forced the war.

[Baronesa]

Endorlf wrote...

That's not my argument. The statement is that with so much bad blood with the Reapers, how can anyone possibly accept them. My point is that given all the bad blood about the Geth from the Quarians, how can any Quarians possibly accept them?

You may remember than back at ME2, there was a group that felt GUILTY of what they tried to do with the Geth, this group is represented by Admiral Zaal'Koris. Who leads the largest part of the Quarian fleet... the civilian fleet. They wanted peace, and were opposed to war with the Geth...

So the opinion on the Geth is not uniform among the Quarians, and basically the warmonger (Han'Gerrel) and the control freak (Daro'Xen) were the ones pushing for war...


Furthermore, the Geth hold no grudge against the Quarians, and are very open not only for peace but to complete cooperation... something NO organic race would ever do... in a way Geth are too innocent

Modifié par Baronesa, 06 août 2012 - 07:26 .

[Chashan]

Taboo-XX wrote...

It may not indoctrinate but it certainly makes me laugh...AUDIBLY.

Me, it just makes me shake my head thinking what the heck went through their heads...

It is quite definite that_something_happens to the galaxy's every individual on a mental level, be it a friendship-is-magic collective or a more sinister form of Reaper indoctrination permeating everyone everywhere. Otherwise, lasting peace could not possibly be achieved.

Modifié par Chashan, 06 août 2012 - 07:25 .

[Hackulator]

The Angry One wrote...

Hackulator wrote...
That is not proof. You do not seem to understand the meaning of the word proof. That is a scenario. You are offering up an explanation for that scenario, but you are giving no actual proof you are simply saying "the truth is self evident." You are making an argument of the same logical quality as most devoutly religious people make to prove the existence of god. In other words, there is no logic at all.

It is evidence. That cannot be explained by synthesis supporters, but fits neatly within established facts about indoctrination.

Possible explanations:

They're not stupid: when the gang of giant dudes with bats who are beating you to death stops, says they are sorry and tries to help you, you don't get up and attack them

They can now link minds: Synthesis allows people to open up direct connections with other sentient entities mental processes. The Reapers allow people inide their "minds" so they can be reassured.

Not everyone is ok with this: There are dissident elements who exist and are not happy about peace with the Reapers, however in the time frame we see in EC they do not actually have the capabilites to strike effectively at the Reapers and so they are not in open rebellion.

Please note that I have not PROVEN any of these things, nor have I tried to. I have simply given some other possible scenarios for peace post-Synthesis. This is exactly what you have done with the "they are all brainwashed" scenario.

[Endorlf]

Applepie_Svk wrote...

Endorlf wrote...


And what about Control? And what about the Geth/Quarian peace? How can the Quarians ever cooperate if their families were devastated by Geth forces? What about all the bad blood about the Krogans? Why would the Turians ever accept their help?

That´s the problem, I mean Geth/Quarian peace everyone knew it will take a time - maybe 1 or 2 generations til they forgive each other but with Synthesis it´s simply massive change of behavior against Reapers from hostile to friends like would nothing happened... It´s natural that time will heal the wounds and not space magic, imagine that WW2 would end with bomb of friendship... rly ?

Genophage cure sabotaged: "Unlimited access to knowledge can help even the most shattered cultures and while it will take some longer than others to see the benefits, even they will eventually live free from poverty and disease reclaiming their worlds, and the stars"  

Care to revise your statement?

Modifié par Endorlf, 06 août 2012 - 07:29 .

[Endorlf]

Baronesa wrote...

Endorlf wrote...

That's not my argument. The statement is that with so much bad blood with the Reapers, how can anyone possibly accept them. My point is that given all the bad blood about the Geth from the Quarians, how can any Quarians possibly accept them?

You may remember than back at ME2, there was a group that felt GUILTY of what they tried to do with the Geth, this group is represented by Admiral Zaal'Koris. Who leads the largest part of the Quarian fleet... the civilian fleet. They wanted peace, and were opposed to war with the Geth...

So the opinion on the Geth is not uniform among the Quarians, and basically the warmonger (Han'Gerrel) and the control freak (Daro'Xen) were the ones pushing for war...


Furthermore, the Geth hold no grudge against the Quarians, and are very open not only for peace but to complete cooperation... something NO organic race would ever do... in a way Geth are too innocent

Somehow Reapers can't be turned into this by Synthesis?

[The Angry One]

[quote]Hackulator wrote...

Possible explanations:

They're not stupid: when the gang of giant dudes with bats who are beating you to death stops, says they are sorry and tries to help you, you don't get up and attack them[/quote]

You're not going to want to be near them either.

[quote]They can now link minds: Synthesis allows people to open up direct connections with other sentient entities mental processes. The Reapers allow people inide their "minds" so they can be reassured.[/quote]

Reassured by an entity who's thoughts are immense and unknowable even to other synthetics.
Also this doesn't sound sinister at all..

[quote]Not everyone is ok with this: There are dissident elements who exist and are not happy about peace with the Reapers, however in the time frame we see in EC they do not actually have the capabilites to strike effectively at the Reapers and so they are not in open rebellion.[/quote]

Then these should be shown, even if it's just a person looking resentfully at a Reaper.
Instead we see people fine and dandy working alongside them, even Coates who, you know, spent months in the trenches fighting them constantly.

[quote]Please note that I have not PROVEN any of these things, nor have I tried to. I have simply given some other possible scenarios for peace post-Synthesis. This is exactly what you have done with the "they are all brainwashed" scenario.[/quote]

And I'm saying that none of these explanations really fit.
[/quote]

Modifié par The Angry One, 06 août 2012 - 07:30 .

[Chashan]

Endorlf wrote...

"Unlimited access to knowledge can help even the most shattered cultures and while it will take some longer than others to see the benefits, even they will eventually live free from poverty and disease reclaiming their worlds, and the stars"  

Care to revise your statement?

You know, that whole quote sounds awfully...disturbing.

Like...

"Join us, for join us you must, and will."

Sorta.

[Memnon]

Endorlf wrote...

Stornskar wrote...

They are under some form of control, or they have total free will - the exact same kind of free will they had before they got hit by the green beam. So what about the green beam is going to make a marine forgive and forget about his family that was murdered and turned into husks/cannibals/etc. Billions upon billions were slaughtered ... children, wives, husbands. If the organics have free will, I don't know that anyone can convince me they won't want to get revenge on the Reapers and their abominations, synthesized or not

The similar situation where people accept the Reapers in Control puts your argument into question.

It doesn't put the argument into question - I actually have the same concerns with Control ... moreso than Synthesis even

[Baronesa]

Endorlf wrote...

Somehow Reapers can't be turned into this by Synthesis?

Of course they can.. if you completely eliminate all their previous personalities... you know... the whole we are each a nation and blah blah blah...

Or accomodating the organics by making them comfortable and pliabable.. making thema ccept the Reapers without the Reapers having to change...

The whole synthesis scenario seems to come fromt he wet dreams of the Borg Queen

None of those things is required on the Geth - Quarian example

Modifié par Baronesa, 06 août 2012 - 07:34 .

[Endorlf]

The Angry One wrote...

Endorlf wrote...

But how do you explain the Geth/Quarian peace then?

They don't need synthesis for peace.

Considering how Geth killed many family and friends, should the Geth/Quarian peace have gone as smoothly as it did?

And why do people accept Reapers in Control?

Do we see perfectly content people next to Reapers in control? No, we don't.

You do. Geth next to a Reaper ship. Miranda analyzing Reaper schematics. In fact, not all that different from Synthesis.

In fact, I find it odd that in high EMS Control, soldiers cheer when Reapers leave, but in Synthesis, soldiers simply look on, as if confused. If it's indoctrination, how is thus confusion possible?

Spending all the energy to rebuild civilizations seem like wasted effort if they're not concerned about the welfare of indoctrinated individuals.

They're concerned about maintaining order, and rebuilding infrastructure is as good a way as any to do that.

Are Reapers incapable of indoctrinating individuals such that they are only able to express happiness while maintaining basic bodily functions such as eating, defecating, sleeping?

Modifié par Endorlf, 06 août 2012 - 07:38 .

[Fawx9]

Hackulator wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Hackulator wrote...
That is not proof. You do not seem to understand the meaning of the word proof. That is a scenario. You are offering up an explanation for that scenario, but you are giving no actual proof you are simply saying "the truth is self evident." You are making an argument of the same logical quality as most devoutly religious people make to prove the existence of god. In other words, there is no logic at all.

It is evidence. That cannot be explained by synthesis supporters, but fits neatly within established facts about indoctrination.

Possible explanations:

They're not stupid: when the gang of giant dudes with bats who are beating you to death stops, says they are sorry and tries to help you, you don't get up and attack them

They can now link minds: Synthesis allows people to open up direct connections with other sentient entities mental processes. The Reapers allow people inide their "minds" so they can be reassured.

Not everyone is ok with this: There are dissident elements who exist and are not happy about peace with the Reapers, however in the time frame we see in EC they do not actually have the capabilites to strike effectively at the Reapers and so they are not in open rebellion.

Please note that I have not PROVEN any of these things, nor have I tried to. I have simply given some other possible scenarios for peace post-Synthesis. This is exactly what you have done with the "they are all brainwashed" scenario.

Counter

Javik

Why is he shown being ok with it? None of your above scenarios come close to making sense given his personality and history.

[Endorlf]

The Angry One wrote...

Not everyone is ok with this: There are dissident elements who exist and are not happy about peace with the Reapers, however in the time frame we see in EC they do not actually have the capabilites to strike effectively at the Reapers and so they are not in open rebellion.

Then these should be shown, even if it's just a person looking resentfully at a Reaper.
Instead we see people fine and dandy working alongside them, even Coates who, you know, spent months in the trenches fighting them constantly.

"Unlimited access to knowledge can help even the most shattered cultures and while it will take some longer than others to see the benefits, even they will eventually live free from poverty and disease reclaiming their worlds, and the stars"