235 réponses à ce sujet

[The Angry One]

Endorlf wrote...

Considering how Geth killed many family and friends, should the Geth/Quarian peace have gone as smoothly as it did?

Yes. Because the Geth genuinely wanted peace, and they proved it. Only the hard liners like Gerrel wanted war at all.
The deaths of the Morning War happened 300 years ago. Your average Quarian isn't going to care, and in this most recent war the *Geth were attacked, and were victims of genocide*.

This is opposed to the Reapers, who have a standing mandate to wipe out advanced life, deliberately torture and multilate, use psychological warfare and only stop when WE change to suit THEM.

You do. Geth next to a Reaper ship.

Indicating that the Shepardyst is controlling them too.

Miranda analyzing Reaper schematics. In fact, not all that different from Synthesis.

Reaper schematics are Reapers now?

Are Reapers incapable of indoctrinating individuals such that they are only able to express happiness and maintain basic bodily functions such as eating, defecating, sleeping?

I don't understand your point. This is a new form of indoctrination, brought on by a forced imposition of a Reaper ideal on all beings whether they like it or not.

[Memnon]

Fawx9 wrote...

Counter

Javik

Why is he shown being ok with it? None of your above scenarios come close to making sense given his personality and history.

This is actually a good point - the instant he became part synthetic, he would have thrown himself out an airlock ...

[Fawx9]

Rubios wrote...

Applepie_Svk wrote...
It´s natural that time will heal the wounds and not space magic, imagine that WW2 would end with bomb of friendship... rly ?

Indoctrination, indoctrination everywhere.

Pretty sure anyone inlvolved with WW2 and was part of the atrocities served harsh penalties for war crimes.

I don't think Reapers doing community service is equivalent to that, do you?

[The Angry One]

Endorlf wrote...

"Unlimited access to knowledge can help even the most shattered cultures and while it will take some longer than others to see the benefits, even they will eventually live free from poverty and disease reclaiming their worlds, and the stars"

Contrary to popular belief, bribery does not make everything okay.

[Endorlf]

Fawx9 wrote...

Hackulator wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Hackulator wrote...
That is not proof. You do not seem to understand the meaning of the word proof. That is a scenario. You are offering up an explanation for that scenario, but you are giving no actual proof you are simply saying "the truth is self evident." You are making an argument of the same logical quality as most devoutly religious people make to prove the existence of god. In other words, there is no logic at all.

It is evidence. That cannot be explained by synthesis supporters, but fits neatly within established facts about indoctrination.

Possible explanations:

They're not stupid: when the gang of giant dudes with bats who are beating you to death stops, says they are sorry and tries to help you, you don't get up and attack them

They can now link minds: Synthesis allows people to open up direct connections with other sentient entities mental processes. The Reapers allow people inide their "minds" so they can be reassured.

Not everyone is ok with this: There are dissident elements who exist and are not happy about peace with the Reapers, however in the time frame we see in EC they do not actually have the capabilites to strike effectively at the Reapers and so they are not in open rebellion.

Please note that I have not PROVEN any of these things, nor have I tried to. I have simply given some other possible scenarios for peace post-Synthesis. This is exactly what you have done with the "they are all brainwashed" scenario.

Counter

Javik

Why is he shown being ok with it? None of your above scenarios come close to making sense given his personality and history.

Javik will never change. It's physically impossible. He would never agree to write a book with Liara because she is such a primitive.

[MerchantGOL]

Stornskar wrote...

Fawx9 wrote...

Counter

Javik

Why is he shown being ok with it? None of your above scenarios come close to making sense given his personality and history.

This is actually a good point - the instant he became part synthetic, he would have thrown himself out an airlock ...

you really dont think he wouldnt  put a lid on his issues til after shepards memorial service?

[Endorlf]

The Angry One wrote...

Endorlf wrote...

"Unlimited access to knowledge can help even the most shattered cultures and while it will take some longer than others to see the benefits, even they will eventually live free from poverty and disease reclaiming their worlds, and the stars"

Contrary to popular belief, bribery does not make everything okay.

Why bribe when you can indoctrinate?

[Baronesa]

Endorlf wrote...
"Unlimited access to knowledge can help even the most shattered cultures and while it will take some longer than others to see the benefits, even they will eventually live free from poverty and disease reclaiming their worlds, and the stars"

We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. Your culture will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile.

Modifié par Baronesa, 06 août 2012 - 07:41 .

[The Angry One]

Endorlf wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Endorlf wrote...

"Unlimited access to knowledge can help even the most shattered cultures and while it will take some longer than others to see the benefits, even they will eventually live free from poverty and disease reclaiming their worlds, and the stars"

Contrary to popular belief, bribery does not make everything okay.

Why bribe when you can indoctrinate?

Sigh. Because normal indoctrination eventually turns minds to jelly.

[Fawx9]

MerchantGOL wrote...

Stornskar wrote...

Fawx9 wrote...

Counter

Javik

Why is he shown being ok with it? None of your above scenarios come close to making sense given his personality and history.

This is actually a good point - the instant he became part synthetic, he would have thrown himself out an airlock ...

you really dont think he wouldnt  put a lid on his issues til after shepards memorial service?

Ah yes the embodiement of vengence who says  And the last thing the Reaperss hear before theu die will be the last voice of the Protheans sending them to their grave."

Would totally be cool and collected with being turned into a hybrid.

[Chashan]

Endorlf wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Endorlf wrote...

"Unlimited access to knowledge can help even the most shattered cultures and while it will take some longer than others to see the benefits, even they will eventually live free from poverty and disease reclaiming their worlds, and the stars"

Contrary to popular belief, bribery does not make everything okay.

Why bribe when you can indoctrinate?

To quote myself, as I think that whole line sounds extremely fishy...

You know, that whole quote sounds awfully...disturbing.

Like...

"Join us, for join us you must, and will."

Sorta.

Otherwise, as to your more basic complaint why people like to paint the oh-so p-hurr-fect Green black: far as I am concerned, it is one of the ugliest utopiae I have ever seen. So I do not exactly mind people poking at it that way...

Modifié par Chashan, 06 août 2012 - 07:44 .

[Podge 90]

Endorlf wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Not everyone is ok with this: There are dissident elements who exist and are not happy about peace with the Reapers, however in the time frame we see in EC they do not actually have the capabilites to strike effectively at the Reapers and so they are not in open rebellion.

Then these should be shown, even if it's just a person looking resentfully at a Reaper.
Instead we see people fine and dandy working alongside them, even Coates who, you know, spent months in the trenches fighting them constantly.

"Unlimited access to knowledge can help even the most shattered cultures and while it will take some longer than others to see the benefits, even they will eventually live free from poverty and disease reclaiming their worlds, and the stars"

"We have a deadline looming, so we'll make this short and sweet.  Everybody forgets everything and lives happily ever after."

[Memnon]

MerchantGOL wrote...

Stornskar wrote...

Fawx9 wrote...

Counter

Javik

Why is he shown being ok with it? None of your above scenarios come close to making sense given his personality and history.

This is actually a good point - the instant he became part synthetic, he would have thrown himself out an airlock ...

you really dont think he wouldnt  put a lid on his issues til after shepards memorial service?

Why would he? Shepard was a soldier that he followed into battle - Shepard dying wouldn't make Javik rethink his life. Hell, if anything Javik would be more inclined to kill himself, since Shepard was pretty much the only primitive of worth, and how he's gone ... and turned Javik into a machine in the process. No, I imagine Javik would be angry and would look forward to ending his existence, as he always maintained he would

[Endorlf]

The Angry One wrote...

Endorlf wrote...

Considering how Geth killed many family and friends, should the Geth/Quarian peace have gone as smoothly as it did?

Yes. Because the Geth genuinely wanted peace, and they proved it. Only the hard liners like Gerrel wanted war at all.
The deaths of the Morning War happened 300 years ago. Your average Quarian isn't going to care, and in this most recent war the *Geth were attacked, and were victims of genocide*.

This is opposed to the Reapers, who have a standing mandate to wipe out advanced life, deliberately torture and multilate, use psychological warfare and only stop when WE change to suit THEM.

Suppose that after the endings, people gained knowledge of the Catalyst. If the Reapers truly are the enslaved puppets of the Catalyst and the people figured that out, would that make accepting them more...realistic? Or perhaps free-willed Reapers after Synthesis chose to reveal their history?

Pure speculation on my part, but any less valid than your speculation?

You do. Geth next to a Reaper ship.

Indicating that the Shepardyst is controlling them too.

Okay...

Miranda analyzing Reaper schematics. In fact, not all that different from Synthesis.

Reaper schematics are Reapers now?

I don't get your point. You only see one or two scenes/slides where Reapers and organics/cyborgs are together.

Are Reapers incapable of indoctrinating individuals such that they are only able to express happiness and maintain basic bodily functions such as eating, defecating, sleeping?

I don't understand your point. This is a new form of indoctrination, brought on by a forced imposition of a Reaper ideal on all beings whether they like it or not.

Can you please explain the exact mechanisms of indoctrination? Where is it stated that fully indoctrinated individuals lack the will to even keep themselves from dying to the elements?

Modifié par Endorlf, 06 août 2012 - 07:46 .

[dreman9999]

Their agenda is to bring peace with organic and synthetics. A balance and ordered world does that. They don't want to reap any one. They just want coexistence with organics and synthetics.

Modifié par dreman9999, 06 août 2012 - 07:50 .

[dreman9999]

Podge 90 wrote...

Endorlf wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Not everyone is ok with this: There are dissident elements who exist and are not happy about peace with the Reapers, however in the time frame we see in EC they do not actually have the capabilites to strike effectively at the Reapers and so they are not in open rebellion.

Then these should be shown, even if it's just a person looking resentfully at a Reaper.
Instead we see people fine and dandy working alongside them, even Coates who, you know, spent months in the trenches fighting them constantly.

"Unlimited access to knowledge can help even the most shattered cultures and while it will take some longer than others to see the benefits, even they will eventually live free from poverty and disease reclaiming their worlds, and the stars"

"We have a deadline looming, so we'll make this short and sweet.  Everybody forgets everything and lives happily ever after."

AKA, Mass indoctrination.

[dreman9999]

The Angry One wrote...

Endorlf wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Endorlf wrote...

"Unlimited access to knowledge can help even the most shattered cultures and while it will take some longer than others to see the benefits, even they will eventually live free from poverty and disease reclaiming their worlds, and the stars"

Contrary to popular belief, bribery does not make everything okay.

Why bribe when you can indoctrinate?

Sigh. Because normal indoctrination eventually turns minds to jelly.

No. Advance indoctrination does that but it has to be issued to advance first by the indoctor. Low level of indoctriantion keeps the mind of an organic full functional. The low level of incotriantion can be done indefinatly to an organics mind with out destroying it.

[Applepie_Svk]

Rubios wrote...

Applepie_Svk wrote...
It´s natural that time will heal the wounds and not space magic, imagine that WW2 would end with bomb of friendship... rly ?

Indoctrination, indoctrination everywhere.

This is more like stupidity born from ignorance...

[The Angry One]

Endorlf wrote...

Suppose that after the endings, people gained knowledge of the Catalyst. If the Reapers truly are the enslaved puppets of the Catalyst and the people figured that out, would that make accepting them more...realistic? Or perhaps free-willed Reapers after Synthesis chose to reveal their history?

Pure speculation on my part, but any less valid than your speculation?

You and I both know people don't work like that. There would be resentment, even if it was entirely undeserved.
People like Coates would not be ready to happily rebuilt alongside the monsters he saw tear his home apart. People like Javik who exist only for vengeance upon the Reapers would not sit still and be understanding about this situation.

It is just not realistic, it looks for all the world like a false utopia.

Okay...

Well, why aren't the Geth with the Quarians then? Why are they with the Old Machines who they loathe as liars, manipulators and war mongers?

I don't get your point. You only see one or two scenes/slides where Reapers and organics/cyborgs are together.

And, given the peope involved, these are enough to draw suspicion.

Can you please explain the exact mechanisms of indoctrination? Where is it stated that fully indoctrinated individuals lack the will to even keep themselves from dying to the elements?

Vigil's dialogue in ME1 refers to the ultimate fate of the indoctrinated once Reapers move on.

[Endorlf]

Okay, it's fine if you find those scenes suspicious. Different interpretations then.

Vigil stated that indoctrinated individuals were left to starve after the Reapers left. If the Reapers are still around, can they "force" individuals to survive in the elements?

Modifié par Endorlf, 06 août 2012 - 07:55 .

[The Angry One]

dreman9999 wrote...

No. Advance indoctrination does that but it has to be issued to advance first by the indoctor. Low level of indoctriantion keeps the mind of an organic full functional. The low level of incotriantion can be done indefinatly to an organics mind with out destroying it.

Codex > Reapers: Indoctrination

Long-term physical effects of the manipulation are unsustainable, Higher
mental functioning decays, ultimately leaving the victim a gibbering
animal. Rapid indoctrination is possible, but causes this decay in days
or weeks. Slow, patient indoctrination allows the thrall to last for
months or years.

[MerchantGOL]

Stornskar wrote...

MerchantGOL wrote...

Stornskar wrote...

Fawx9 wrote...

Counter

Javik

Why is he shown being ok with it? None of your above scenarios come close to making sense given his personality and history.

This is actually a good point - the instant he became part synthetic, he would have thrown himself out an airlock ...

you really dont think he wouldnt  put a lid on his issues til after shepards memorial service?

Why would he? Shepard was a soldier that he followed into battle - Shepard dying wouldn't make Javik rethink his life. Hell, if anything Javik would be more inclined to kill himself, since Shepard was pretty much the only primitive of worth, and how he's gone ... and turned Javik into a machine in the process. No, I imagine Javik would be angry and would look forward to ending his existence, as he always maintained he would

As you just said shepard was the only primative of worth, the representive of his cycle, JAvik would pay his last respects, aditonaly i belive he would still do what he said he would do in the renegadde, pay his respects to his squad.

[dreman9999]

The Angry One wrote...




Vigil's dialogue in ME1 refers to the ultimate fate of the indoctrinated once Reapers move on.

....Why didn't Virgil tell us about the collectors? Or the protheans being turned to destroyers?

[Applepie_Svk]

dreman9999 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...




Vigil's dialogue in ME1 refers to the ultimate fate of the indoctrinated once Reapers move on.

....Why didn't Virgil tell us about the collectors? Or the protheans being turned to destroyers?

isolation ?