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[dreman9999]

warriorN7 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

warriorN7 wrote...

I saw no evidence or even hints at brain washing in the syntheses ending. In the ending I saw everyone behaving normally, they had green eyes but there all acting as one would expect.Take the Normandy crew for example there having a funeral for Shepard.Why would they be doing this if they were now brainwashed by reapers, wouldn't they be busy serving there reaper overlords? 

Understand how the catalyst thinks and you'll understand why people think synthesis is mass indoctriantion. If every one is indoctrianted, no one would know it and there would be no signs of it.

I think the fact that if the reapers had just indoctrinated everyone in the galaxy they would continue there goal of harvesting organics and creating more reapers. Its not like the reapers need slaves. There is evidence of this happening in the ending.   

The goal of the reaper/catalyst is not to reap. Their gaol is bring peace with orgaincxs and synthetic. The fact that you think they would still reap with everyone doing what they want them to do show you don't understand this. The reapers do not want to reap. They want organc and synthetic peace. If everyone is indoctrianted, why reap them when they can just tell every one to coexisit with indoctrianton.

[dreman9999]

Applepie_Svk wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

I think dreman is a Reaper apologist

I think he is indoctrinated... or just get too high - I would like to know where he is buying that stuff

Note that I pick destroy. I'm not a reaper apologist. I just understand what I'm facing.
They are just machine doing what they are programed to do. Heck, I think synthesis is mass indcotriantion. How does that make me a reaper apologist.

Modifié par dreman9999, 06 août 2012 - 08:37 .

[Ticonderoga117]

saracen16 wrote...
Morals do not enter the equation with machines, and thus they do not follow the convention of good or evil. Being "evil" assumes malicious intent and ambition, two things that machines are not guided by because machines are guided only by their programming, and as such do not exceed those parameters. Their internal logic dictates that they will do whatever is necessary regardless of the means. While it sounds Macchiavellian, it doesn't imply that their intent is pure wanton genocide. They want organics and synthetics to survive and chose an extreme solution after having processed thousands of others that have always failed.

Organics are guided by morals and often break them, as well as ambition that allows them to trump the needs of others for the sake of their own. Going by this convention, TIM is evil because he wants humanity to triumph over all regardless of the cost to others and to his own species. Saren is evil because he is looking after himself.

And I'd watch what I'd say about them: that the Reapers were able to adapt to Shepard's foiling of their plans in the first two games and push back the allied forces sufficiently enough that the odds for the allied forces dropped way below their already horrendous chances at defeating the Reapers conventionally. This shows that the Reapers are anything but "stupid". They are adaptable. They are relentless.

But instead of, oh I don't know, trying to actually use diplomacy and logic to persuade organics (because synthetics wouldn't have the same problem) they just say "Nah, to hell with that. Kill everyone and turn them into GOO! All other synthetics will get melted down and turned into buttons!"

Having either side survive does not mean "Kill them and then take thier base elements and keep them like a coin collection." Considering we mere mortals can comprehend this, I doubt the Reapers don't get it either.

Also, the Reapers didn't really adapt. They just persisted.
"Hey! We just lost our way into the Galaxy, what do we do now?"
"Fly. Fly until we get there!"

That's not adapting since that was, apparently, always an option.

[Endorlf]

Please abandon this thread. It has been derailed and is completely off-topic.

Just in case this thead still has any kind of meaningful discussion, here are a few questions.

Lets take a look at this scenario. If the Reapers indoctrinated everyone, why can't they come up with an elaborate explanation on how they're unable to help? Alternately, why can't they simply remove their presence and hide? If their presence is hidden, then people wouldn't try to look at the Reapers as free helpers.

Also, how do you sustain an indoctrinated population? Major races races like the humans, Turians, and Quarians don't reproduce until they're around 20, or even older in the case of Krogans and Asari. Can indoctrination last that long without turning them into "gibbering animals?"  

Modifié par Endorlf, 06 août 2012 - 08:40 .

[Ticonderoga117]

dreman9999 wrote...
You just gave it a way to so by adding the crucible to it. You just upgrades the catalyst to have a new way to do it's programing.

Huh? That's not part of the problem.
The problem for Synthesis is that beings need to advance to X progress to be able to Synthesize correctly and not go crazy or something. However, he then says "Nah, we can totally force it this time, even though the last time failed" for no good reason. It's not because we proved creative with the Cruicible... we just copied the bloody plans.

It would be if someone gave me all the tools and details to make a nuclear bomb and then told me to build it. All the hard work was done for me. I was just the monkey that put it together. I didn't learn anything new, or grew as a person. I just put together a rather hazardous lego set.

[warriorN7]

dreman9999 wrote...

warriorN7 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

warriorN7 wrote...

I saw no evidence or even hints at brain washing in the syntheses ending. In the ending I saw everyone behaving normally, they had green eyes but there all acting as one would expect.Take the Normandy crew for example there having a funeral for Shepard.Why would they be doing this if they were now brainwashed by reapers, wouldn't they be busy serving there reaper overlords? 

Understand how the catalyst thinks and you'll understand why people think synthesis is mass indoctriantion. If every one is indoctrianted, no one would know it and there would be no signs of it.

I think the fact that if the reapers had just indoctrinated everyone in the galaxy they would continue there goal of harvesting organics and creating more reapers. Its not like the reapers need slaves. There is evidence of this happening in the ending.   

The goal of the reaper/catalyst is not to reap. Their gaol is bring peace with orgaincxs and synthetic. The fact that you think they would still reap with everyone doing what they want them to do show you don't understand this. The reapers do not want to reap. They want organc and synthetic peace. If everyone is indoctrianted, why reap them when they can just tell every one to coexisit with indoctrianton.

I know what your getting at, I just don't see any point to it. 

Modifié par warriorN7, 06 août 2012 - 08:43 .

[Applepie_Svk]

MaleQuariansFTW wrote...

Evil is a point of view. To themselves, the Reapers are not evil because they are not liquifying people for the sole purpose of "being evil". The Catalyst isn't plotting some evil plans against organic life "just because it hates us". 

To us they are evil because they threaten to take away what we know as existence, they threaten our lives. So of course we think they're evil.

The Catalyst's logic is flawed, but that doesn't make it evil.

From moral stance his solution and his logic is evil despite that he is called himself machine-AI, but even AI which we have a chance to meet were expresing feelings and emotions despite that they are just AI as one could say. His behavior and acts speak for themselves - you can´t argue that he was programed to do such a thing - he wasn´t - he was programed to bring a peace and he is avoiding his duty with rebelion and genocide, he rebelled against creators and turn them into Reaper so he is AI which means that was choosing own path.

[Haargel]

I'm not sure, but I think all endings with high EMS are considered 'good endings' through the eyes of BioWare.

I still don't like them either, but the EC added what I wanted... clarification.

[dreman9999]

Endorlf wrote...

Please abandon this thread. It has been derailed and is completely off-topic.

Just in case this thead still has any kind of meaningful discussion, here are a few questions.

Lets take a look at this scenario. If the Reapers indoctrinated everyone, why can't they come up with an elaborate explanation on how they're unable to help? Alternately, why can't they simply remove their presence and hide? If their presence is hidden, then people wouldn't try to look at the Reapers as free helpers.

Also, how do you sustain an indoctrinated population? Major races races like the humans, Turians, and Quarians don't reproduce until they're around 20, or even older in the case of Krogans and Asari. Can indoctrination last that long without turning them into "gibbering animals?"  

1.That not the problem. The reaper presesnce is no the cause of the problem the reaper seek to solve.

2.Also, this has been expline how it is sustained. The organics have been implained down to their dna. What every nano machines that are in their system is in their reproductive system as well. It would be past over with any geneitic data used for reproduction.

3. Yes, indoctriantion can last perminatly with out turing them into gibering animals. (That is why I brought up Saren before.) For indoctriantion to advance, the reapers have to allow it to advance.

[AresKeith]

Applepie_Svk wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

I think dreman is a Reaper apologist

I think he is indoctrinated... or just get too high - I would like to know where he is buying that stuff

RedSand? Illium I guess, I need to visit that Planet one day lol

[dreman9999]

Applepie_Svk wrote...

MaleQuariansFTW wrote...

Evil is a point of view. To themselves, the Reapers are not evil because they are not liquifying people for the sole purpose of "being evil". The Catalyst isn't plotting some evil plans against organic life "just because it hates us". 

To us they are evil because they threaten to take away what we know as existence, they threaten our lives. So of course we think they're evil.

The Catalyst's logic is flawed, but that doesn't make it evil.

From moral stance his solution and his logic is evil despite that he is called himself machine-AI, but even AI which we have a chance to meet were expresing feelings and emotions despite that they are just AI as one could say. His behavior and acts speak for themselves - you can´t argue that he was programed to do such a thing - he wasn´t - he was programed to bring a peace and he is avoiding his duty with rebelion and genocide, he rebelled against creators and turn them into Reaper so he is AI which means that was choosing own path.

How can you not understand that machines have no moral if they are not allowed to get them. How can they be judges by morals alone if they have on comprohetion of them. Who you like to be judged by someone else morals?  We have terrorist groups out their that are willing to do that?

[dreman9999]

warriorN7 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

warriorN7 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

warriorN7 wrote...

I saw no evidence or even hints at brain washing in the syntheses ending. In the ending I saw everyone behaving normally, they had green eyes but there all acting as one would expect.Take the Normandy crew for example there having a funeral for Shepard.Why would they be doing this if they were now brainwashed by reapers, wouldn't they be busy serving there reaper overlords? 

Understand how the catalyst thinks and you'll understand why people think synthesis is mass indoctriantion. If every one is indoctrianted, no one would know it and there would be no signs of it.

I think the fact that if the reapers had just indoctrinated everyone in the galaxy they would continue there goal of harvesting organics and creating more reapers. Its not like the reapers need slaves. There is evidence of this happening in the ending.   

The goal of the reaper/catalyst is not to reap. Their gaol is bring peace with orgaincxs and synthetic. The fact that you think they would still reap with everyone doing what they want them to do show you don't understand this. The reapers do not want to reap. They want organc and synthetic peace. If everyone is indoctrianted, why reap them when they can just tell every one to coexisit with indoctrianton.

I know what your getting at, I just don't see any point to it. 

Of course there is a point. Without it, what is there to make sure peace last with orgaincs and synthetics?

[dreman9999]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
You just gave it a way to so by adding the crucible to it. You just upgrades the catalyst to have a new way to do it's programing.

Huh? That's not part of the problem.
The problem for Synthesis is that beings need to advance to X progress to be able to Synthesize correctly and not go crazy or something. However, he then says "Nah, we can totally force it this time, even though the last time failed" for no good reason. It's not because we proved creative with the Cruicible... we just copied the bloody plans.

It would be if someone gave me all the tools and details to make a nuclear bomb and then told me to build it. All the hard work was done for me. I was just the monkey that put it together. I didn't learn anything new, or grew as a person. I just put together a rather hazardous lego set.

Why do you think people think synthesis is mass indoctriantion? It exactly why you think synthesis would not work.

Modifié par dreman9999, 06 août 2012 - 08:59 .

[Mobius-Silent]

Applepie_Svk wrote...

Endorlf wrote...

Applepie_Svk wrote...

With space magic they rewrote everyone and made them own... everyone is now Reaper - so why the hell not

You're simply shifting the burden of proof. The question is why.

Reapers are hybrids created from mass of DNA and metal, with synthesis you force both synthetics and organics in same way, the synthetics gain organic material and organics gain hardware - what else you want ?

Proof is thin as toilet paper, because the Stargazer is obviously living in different future without Reapers and synthesis.

Synthetics do not gain organic parts in the synthesis ending. Only new hardware capable of directly coupling emotions to reward/punish centers of their consciousness. Organics gain the additional synthetic framework that wraps and can include existing organic elements

[Ticonderoga117]

dreman9999 wrote...
Of course there is a point. Without it, what is there to make sure peace last with orgaincs and synthetics?

What is there to make sure the sun comes up in the morning, or that I don't die in the middle of the night, or that I don't get robbed while riding the bus?

You can't. It's impossible to force it. Don't try. That's why this whole thing is stupid.

Besides, peace under the threat of a gun isn't peace at all.

[Ticonderoga117]

dreman9999 wrote...
Why do you think peole think synthesis is mass indoctriantion? It exactly why you think synthesis would not work.

Because... oh, we all get implanted with Reaper tech and are living buddy buddy with them?

[Applepie_Svk]

dreman9999 wrote...

How can you not understand that machines have no moral if they are not allowed to get them. How can they be judges by morals alone if they have on comprohetion of them. Who you like to be judged by someone else morals?  We have terrorist groups out their that are willing to do that?

EDI and Legion speak otherwise....

[dreman9999]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
Of course there is a point. Without it, what is there to make sure peace last with orgaincs and synthetics?

What is there to make sure the sun comes up in the morning, or that I don't die in the middle of the night, or that I don't get robbed while riding the bus?

You can't. It's impossible to force it. Don't try. That's why this whole thing is stupid.

Besides, peace under the threat of a gun isn't peace at all.

That is not how a machine thinks. It only thinks to do it programing. It thinks in absolutes. That how the reaper salution  got selected. Take some time to think like a machines and you'll understand.

[dreman9999]

Applepie_Svk wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

How can you not understand that machines have no moral if they are not allowed to get them. How can they be judges by morals alone if they have on comprohetion of them. Who you like to be judged by someone else morals?  We have terrorist groups out their that are willing to do that?

EDI and Legion speak otherwise....

Understand what" if they are not allowed to get them(morality)" means and come back to me.
I should not have to explaine this.

[saracen16]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

saracen16 wrote...
Morals do not enter the equation with machines, and thus they do not follow the convention of good or evil. Being "evil" assumes malicious intent and ambition, two things that machines are not guided by because machines are guided only by their programming, and as such do not exceed those parameters. Their internal logic dictates that they will do whatever is necessary regardless of the means. While it sounds Macchiavellian, it doesn't imply that their intent is pure wanton genocide. They want organics and synthetics to survive and chose an extreme solution after having processed thousands of others that have always failed.

Organics are guided by morals and often break them, as well as ambition that allows them to trump the needs of others for the sake of their own. Going by this convention, TIM is evil because he wants humanity to triumph over all regardless of the cost to others and to his own species. Saren is evil because he is looking after himself.

And I'd watch what I'd say about them: that the Reapers were able to adapt to Shepard's foiling of their plans in the first two games and push back the allied forces sufficiently enough that the odds for the allied forces dropped way below their already horrendous chances at defeating the Reapers conventionally. This shows that the Reapers are anything but "stupid". They are adaptable. They are relentless.

But instead of, oh I don't know, trying to actually use diplomacy and logic to persuade organics (because synthetics wouldn't have the same problem) they just say "Nah, to hell with that. Kill everyone and turn them into GOO! All other synthetics will get melted down and turned into buttons!"

And you'd think the Creators didn't try diplomacy before? It's in Mass Effect Revelation: rogue AI's are bound to come out that will defend themselves as part of their primary programming. When self-preservation enters the fray, so does conflict. Mere diplomacy does squat, and to the Catalyst, war between the two would be catastrophic.

Having either side survive does not mean "Kill them and then take thier base elements and keep them like a coin collection." Considering we mere mortals can comprehend this, I doubt the Reapers don't get it either.

That's not what the Catalyst is interested in. It has tried solutions with both alive, but it's more interested in the long run, to bring balance between synthetics and organics in the long-run. The Reapers are that solution, and it has entered a logic loop in its cycles. In the overall context of things, organics and synthetics do survive, and quite frankly it is doing its job. It seems to be fulfilling its programming.

Also, the Reapers didn't really adapt. They just persisted.
"Hey! We just lost our way into the Galaxy, what do we do now?"
"Fly. Fly until we get there!"

Right, and attack all the home planets right away simultaneously and eliminate them before they have any chance of countering our offensive. That's adaptation, and the Reapers are the best at it.

[dreman9999]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
Why do you think peole think synthesis is mass indoctriantion? It exactly why you think synthesis would not work.

Because... oh, we all get implanted with Reaper tech and are living buddy buddy with them?

Think of Legion's mission in ME2. We are given the option to rewrite the heritic geth..... They then suddenly choose to stop working with the reapers. Is that not like indoctriantion?

Isn't indoctriantion something that happens to someone with out them knowing?

[Ranger Jack Walker]

Indoctrination:

Quick Indoctrination quickly degrades the mind of the victim.

Partial Indoctrination takes time.

The more control the reaper exerts, the faster the victims minds deteriorates.

THat's all from the codex.

But this presents a contradiction with the Synthesis is Indoctrination theory.

If the Synthesis beem indoctrinates everyone instantly, then everyone would be a drooling husk. Yet they are clearly not.

So which is it?

Your theory screwing up the lore far more than anything and everything in ME3 put together?

Or your theory is wrong?

Pick one.

[Ticonderoga117]

saracen16 wrote...
And you'd think the Creators didn't try diplomacy before? It's in Mass Effect Revelation: rogue AI's are bound to come out that will defend themselves as part of their primary programming. When self-preservation enters the fray, so does conflict. Mere diplomacy does squat, and to the Catalyst, war between the two would be catastrophic.

Apparently they got tired of doing it, or atleast the Reapers did. They just kill everyone and to hell with the consquences. It's not ok when anyone else kills, only us!

That's not what the Catalyst is interested in. It has tried solutions with both alive, but it's more interested in the long run, to bring balance between synthetics and organics in the long-run. The Reapers are that solution, and it has entered a logic loop in its cycles. In the overall context of things, organics and synthetics do survive, and quite frankly it is doing its job. It seems to be fulfilling its programming.

Yes, it certainly keeps the balance... BY KILLING EVERYONE.
Somehow, I doubt that was the idea of the Creators.

Right, and attack all the home planets right away simultaneously and eliminate them before they have any chance of countering our offensive. That's adaptation, and the Reapers are the best at it.

But they didn't do that. The Batarians and Humans get hit first, then the Turians, then eventually the Asari, Salarains and others.

And we did counter them, we just don't do anything more because the leaders are morons.

[Ticonderoga117]

dreman9999 wrote...
Think of Legion's mission in ME2. We are given the option to rewrite the heritic geth..... They then suddenly choose to stop working with the reapers. Is that not like indoctriantion?

Isn't indoctriantion something that happens to someone with out them knowing?

So... basically your saying we do get indoctrinated.
Alright!

[saracen16]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

saracen16 wrote...
And you'd think the Creators didn't try diplomacy before? It's in Mass Effect Revelation: rogue AI's are bound to come out that will defend themselves as part of their primary programming. When self-preservation enters the fray, so does conflict. Mere diplomacy does squat, and to the Catalyst, war between the two would be catastrophic.

Apparently they got tired of doing it, or atleast the Reapers did. They just kill everyone and to hell with the consquences. It's not ok when anyone else kills, only us!

The logic of the Catalyst is that organic-synthetic conflict is inevitable, not impossible. Diplomacy would never work in such a setting as it is only temporary.

That's not what the Catalyst is interested in. It has tried solutions with both alive, but it's more interested in the long run, to bring balance between synthetics and organics in the long-run. The Reapers are that solution, and it has entered a logic loop in its cycles. In the overall context of things, organics and synthetics do survive, and quite frankly it is doing its job. It seems to be fulfilling its programming.

Yes, it certainly keeps the balance... BY KILLING EVERYONE.
Somehow, I doubt that was the idea of the Creators.

The Catalyst does discriminate between advanced species and non-advanced species. Of course the Creators disapproved of its solution because the Creators were an advanced race.

Right, and attack all the home planets right away simultaneously and eliminate them before they have any chance of countering our offensive. That's adaptation, and the Reapers are the best at it.

But they didn't do that. The Batarians and Humans get hit first, then the Turians, then eventually the Asari, Salarains and others.

What mattered is that they struck the home planets. They effectively crippled the advanced civilizations before they had any chance to mount a counter-offensive against them. The turians managed to do well but eventually they had to retreat near the end of the game.

And we did counter them, we just don't do anything more because the leaders are morons.

I've had enough of your disingenuous assertions. Really. The leaders are not morons. They simply are not foolish, and there's a line between bravery and foolishness. The leaders have tried outright assault even with the might of the krogans at the side of the turians, and they still managed to only slow down the Reapers. The Reapers have to be stopped, and only the Crucible can do that. Do you want to rewrite the entire story of the trilogy? Be my guest.

And you failed to respond to the fact that the Reapers are not evil.

Modifié par saracen16, 06 août 2012 - 10:00 .