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[AtreiyaN7]

Endorlf wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Hackulator wrote...

This
is the logical fallacy that is being comitted by the people in the
"synthesis is brainwashing camp." Its never shown ar stated, yet they
take it as a given b ecause they don't like the concept.

The proof is in the EC ending. We have yet to see any suitable explanation as to why people would tolerate Reapers working alongside them mere weeks/months after a war in which Reapers murdered and mutilated their loved ones.

And what about Control? And what about the Geth/Quarian peace? How can the Quarians ever cooperate if their families were devastated by Geth forces? What about all the bad blood about the Krogans? Why would the Turians ever accept their help?

I would agree that people sometimes insist on holding on to their pet theories, even when they're completely ridiculous (especially if an individual loathes any possibility that conflicts with their precious headcanon and personal desires). They'll even try to twist the rock-solid evidence of a bright, utopian future in the Synthesis epilogue with their pretzel logic. *points at TAO's post up there as an example*

She's insisting that the idea that people in a positive future could move past their history with the Reapers and work alongside them somehow qualifies as proof of them being Indoctrinated. Sorry, just give me one moment to get this is out of my system: LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!

I suppose the fact that we're now allies with the Germans and are members of NATO - together -  means that we were all brainwashed after World War II, eh? This insistence that former enemies can't ever become friends or allies (even after atrocities have been committed), short of being brainwashed into it, is flat-out stupid.

I will again (for the umpteenth time) point to other cases of reconciliation between former enemies like whites and blacks in post-apartheid South Africa, or the U.S. and Japan becoming allies after WW II. And I might remind everyone that the Japanese certainly committed numerous war crimes and atrocities, just like the Germans did.

Even the Hutus and Tutsis in Rwanda have managed to reconcile after a million people (out of a population of 8 million) were killed in a genocidal war.  Ever watch Hotel Rwanda or see actual footage of the atrocities committed in that country? Yeah, well, there's your ACTUAL proof that former enemies can make peace after even the most terrible of events.

The fact that there aren't detailed bullet points/explanations or minute-by-minute coverage of every individual and their reactions to Synthesis is NOT proof of Indoctrination. It's nothing more than nitpicking by people who are fixated on hating an idea so much that they can't see straight and will grasp at any straw that they can.

Back to the actual Synthesis issue: the Catalyst said  that past attempts at Synthesis failed because organics weren't ready. One can infer (logically, in my opinion) that it failed because the races in past cycles refused the idea and didn't want it - maybe they had irrational fears and couldn't reconcile themselves to a change of that magnitude. Maybe they even suffered from psychoses and mental breakdowns that led to failure.

One could also infer that we were ready and were accepting of the idea of merging - maybe it's because we were just more flexible about the idea that all sentient beings are of equal value, maybe Shepard's experiences contributed to it. The why of it doesn't really matter - we were clearly ready (for whatever reason), and it worked.

If you were to actually think about it with some teensy degree of logic, then why aren't we all shown as slaves in Synthesis if we've been brainwashed? Everything I saw directly contradicts the idea that we're Indoctrinated. I saw civilizations and worlds being rebuilt in a future where we're free to learn and to live in peace. And how would anyone who claims that we've been brainwashed manage to explain our LI's emotional reaction during the memorial ceremony on the Normandy?

Kaidan and EDI express pain and sadness over their shared loss when Shepard's plaque is placed on the wall, and they even take comfort in each other with an embrace. That alone should be more than enough for anyone who isn't completely delusional to realize that we're still perfectly normal people who aren't slaves of the Reapers. Oh well, the BSN being what it is, I can't say that I come here expecting people to be rational or to think logically anyway. *snort*

[The Angry One]

Oh yes of course I'm the one relying on headcanon and not taking everything from the established characters and events of the game, and showing how they don't fit with the false utopia of synthesis.

On people's reactions to Reapers.
Hey, Atreiya, ever heard the term "too soon"? Or does that not register anywhere?
Thought not. Your attempts to mock me fall flat on their face as always.

Of course you refuse to recognise just what a horrific impact the Reapers would have on the human psyche. Beings who not only kill, but torture and mutilate, who twist minds and terrorise, who declare you nothing but a resource to be used or disposed of as they see fit. The sheer horror of spending months fighting these things, watching your friends and family be butchered.
That'd get in the way of your agenda now, wouldn't it.

The Reapers are not a country. They're not saying sorry and going away to their own corner. They're stopping because we were remade in their image. They are satisfied. Why should we be? Hm?

Respond with your usual tirade of insults if you must, Atreiya. I'll pay no more attention to you. But do try not to misrepresent your opponents next time, alright? Ta.

Edit: Oh yes, just to address the "emotions" of the LI.
False dilemma, sweetie. The indoctrinated display emotions all the time. Look at TIM on the Citadel.

Modifié par The Angry One, 06 août 2012 - 10:50 .

[Chashan]

I will again (for the umpteenth time) point to other cases of reconciliation between former enemies [...]

The Reapers committed_eons_of continuous genocide of the most gruesome kind, dictated by an absurd paradox of a reasoning.

To me, that is several leagues beyond redemption, and the wrong place for a "reconciliation"-scenario to take place. The fact that atrocities on the Reapers' part are outlined in the game as they are - with clear allusions to the Third Reich - just makes that a no-go for how this whole thing plays out, and a major reason I am not even going to advocate for Green even for the sake of it anymore, among other reasons.

Back to the actual Synthesis issue: the Catalyst said that past attempts at Synthesis failed because organics weren't ready. One can infer (logically, in my opinion) that it failed because the races in past cycles refused the idea and didn't want it - maybe they had irrational fears and couldn't reconcile themselves to a change of that magnitude. Maybe they even suffered from psychoses and mental breakdowns that led to failure.

One could also infer that we were ready and were accepting of the idea of merging - maybe it's because we were just more flexible about the idea that all sentient beings are of equal value, maybe Shepard's experiences contributed to it. The why of it doesn't really matter - we were clearly ready (for whatever reason), and it worked.

This right there tells me enough to reject the whole premise of Synthesis as well: it is what this perverted construct wants, it is what the Fuhrer-Figure of the Reap-hurrs worked towards as its idea of an utopia in its image.

And what exactly tells you your scenarios would not apply to large swathes of this cycle's populations? Only because EDI seems to have weathered it and the select few snippets we get of the rest does not mean such incidents transcending mere identity crises would_not_be a part of what is happening.

Weighing whatever benefits this utopeia might bring for the galaxy against the colossal amount of atrocities conducted by these constructs and the fishiness of its epilogue is enough to just reject the idea as a whole, and that it says that it did not even work before is just further supporting rejection of it. As is the horrible execution of it, far as I see it.

Modifié par Chashan, 07 août 2012 - 01:51 .

[The Angry One]

Oh my god I missed that. Did she actually headcanon that the species in past cycles "refused" synthesis?
How in the blue blazes do you "refuse" green space magic molecules or whatever being integrated into your DNA? And she speaks to *me* about headcanon? Logical inference? Based on *what*?

Hell, if you *could* "refuse" synthesis... don't you think Javik would? Do you honestly think Javik would accept this after everything he said?

Modifié par The Angry One, 06 août 2012 - 11:04 .

[JShepppp]

Chashan wrote...

I will again (for the umpteenth time) point to other cases of reconciliation between former enemies [...]

The Reapers committed_eons_of continuous genocide of the most gruesome kind, dictated by an aburd paradox of a reasoning.

To me, that is several leagues beyond redemption, and the wrong place for a "reconciliation"-scenario to take place. The fact that atrocities on the Reapers' part are outlined in the game as they are - with clear allusions to the Third Reich - just makes that a no-go for how this whole thing plays out, and a major reason I am not even going to advocate for Green even for the sake of it anymore, among other reasons.

The Reapers themselves are tools of the Catalyst, 100% controlled by it. They have no agency to realize their free will; they can think all they want but their actions are controlled by the Catalyst. The Catalyst is bound by its programming.

Lets backtrack a bit here.

To the Catalyst, Reapers are like a standard windows OS or something in terms of the level of control it has over them and the comfort with which it carries out its tasks (note: it expects to have control of all the reapers ad infinitum as the cycle continues apparently). It controls the Reapers. It and the Reapers are separate entities. You cannot blame the Reapers for the Catalyst's actions; they are puppets. 

The Catalyst is EMBODIES the collective intelligence of the Reapers. It is not the collective willpower and desires of the Reapers. It just has all their knowledge and their experiences but is not influenced by their desires. It is just the plain intelligence - the information - that it takes from the Reapers; whether this is the prior civilizations' memories or the current Reapers' experiences (e.g. Sovvy meets Shepard and the Catalyst learns of Sovvy's experiences) is unknown. It utilizes this information to better control them and achieve its goal. 

So the Reapers have ZERO agency. I'm not saying everyone should live happily with them, of course it will be difficult because you cannot blame the Reapers for what they did. The REapers' only fault is basically dying and not stopping the Catalyst from (a) continuing the cycle (while they were still fighting the Reapers) or ( forming a Reaper from their species. You can hate on them for failing to defeat the Reapers in their own time basically, but that's about it. 

Now look at the Catalyst. It is contrained by its programming and is told to find the most efficient way to go about it and has ZERO understanding of organic morals. It's like placing a boulder at the top of a hill. Gravity will "program" the boulder to roll down as that is the fastest/most efficient way to get down the hill. If the boulder squishes a hillside village, it's tragic, but you can't blame the boulder because it rolled down and let gravity do its thing.

You have to look at who placed the boulder there (the Catalyst's creators). They're the ones ultimately to blame. Yet the Catalyst explicitly says that its creators did not intend for the Reaper cycle to happen, so their crime is mainly being moronic and making a massive mistake a la Quarians and the Geth to the 11th.

I'm not saying it's "wrong" to blame the Catalyst and treat it like an individual. We are bound by our morals and the imperfection that lends us is ironically our pride in our morality. By all means hate the Reapers and the Catalyst. But doing so is a blind hate because they're not the ones at fault. It's a tragedy that there is blame to put but the entity that deserves it is no more (unless you look at Harby perhaps).

Back to the actual Synthesis issue: the Catalyst said that past attempts at Synthesis failed because organics weren't ready. One can infer (logically, in my opinion) that it failed because the races in past cycles refused the idea and didn't want it - maybe they had irrational fears and couldn't reconcile themselves to a change of that magnitude. Maybe they even suffered from psychoses and mental breakdowns that led to failure.

One could also infer that we were ready and were accepting of the idea of merging - maybe it's because we were just more flexible about the idea that all sentient beings are of equal value, maybe Shepard's experiences contributed to it. The why of it doesn't really matter - we were clearly ready (for whatever reason), and it worked.

This right there tells me enough to reject the whole premise of Synthesis as well: it is what this perverted construct wants, it is what the Fuhrer-Figure of the Reap-hurrs worked towards as its idea of an utopia in its image.

And what exactly tells you your scenarios would not apply to large swathes of this cycle's populations? Only because EDI seems to have weathered it and the select few snippets we get of the rest does not mean such incidents transcending mere identity crises would_not_be a part of what is happening.

Weighing whatever benefits this utopeia might bring for the galaxy against the colossal amount of atrocities conducted by these constructs and the fishiness of its epilogue is enough to just reject the idea as a whole, and that it says that it did not even work before is just further supporting rejection of it. As is the horrible execution of it, far as I see it.

Past attempts at synthesis failed because the Catalyst forced it. It believes Shepard, as an avatar, can speak for the cycle in his/her decision - such as defeating the Reapers. It's up to Shepard whether or not he/she feels up to that level of responsibility or even if it's right to have that much power of choice. But again that's not the Catalyst's fault nor is it Synthesis's fault. Those ideas and concepts and outcomes are there and just presented as fruit for plucking by Shepard. No one's forcing you to eat it. Every time the Catalyst offers synthesis there are other options. 

Synthesis will inevitably be reached as the Catalyst, as the writers' spokesperson about the universe, explains. ORganics will naturally keep seeking better technology and synthetics will seek better understanding. Eventually they will reach a point where they become similar in that regard and where what they seek becomes aligned. That is the synthesis point.

[Endorlf]

The Angry One wrote...

Of course you refuse to recognise just what a horrific impact the Reapers would have on the human psyche. Beings who not only kill, but torture and mutilate, who twist minds and terrorise, who declare you nothing but a resource to be used or disposed of as they see fit. The sheer horror of spending months fighting these things, watching your friends and family be butchered.
That'd get in the way of your agenda now, wouldn't it.

The Reapers are not a country. They're not saying sorry and going away to their own corner. They're stopping because we were remade in their image. They are satisfied. Why should we be? Hm?

Respond with your usual tirade of insults if you must, Atreiya. I'll pay no more attention to you. But do try not to misrepresent your opponents next time, alright? Ta.

Edit: Oh yes, just to address the "emotions" of the LI.
False dilemma, sweetie. The indoctrinated display emotions all the time. Look at TIM on the Citadel.

What makes you think the opposite isn't true? What if the Reapers were remade by Synthesis?

Lets take a look at this scenario. If the Reapers indoctrinated everyone, why can't they come up with an elaborate explanation on how they're unable to help? Alternately, why can't they simply remove their presence and hide? If their presence is hidden, then people wouldn't try to look at the Reapers as free helpers.

Also, how do you sustain an indoctrinated population? Major races races like the humans, Turians, and Quarians don't reproduce until they're around 20, or even older in the case of Krogans and Asari. Can indoctrination last that long without turning them into "gibbering animals?"

One argument people have is that such levels of indoctrination also means that the indoctrinated loses the ability to even survive. As the codex states, they are turned into gibbering animals, and Vigil stated that when the Reapers left, the indoctrinated slaves starved to death.

However, this brings up an interesting question. If the Reapers remain around, do victims of deep indoctrination survive then? 

Another question. When looking at the cutscenes, why must we see it as lovingly accepting the Reapers instead of people begrudgingly accepting the Reaper's help. Why do people insist on the former happening instead of the latter?

Modifié par Endorlf, 07 août 2012 - 01:28 .

[Chashan]

 

So the Reapers have ZERO agency. I'm not saying everyone should live happily with them, of course it will be difficult because you cannot blame the Reapers for what they did. The REapers' only fault is basically dying and not stopping the Catalyst from (a) continuing the cycle (while they were still fighting the Reapers) or ( forming a Reaper from their species. You can hate on them for failing to defeat the Reapers in their own time basically, but that's about it.

Wait a minute, are you_blaming_the peoples that were gooified by these erratic machines for what said machines are doing?

Far as I am concerned, I am not buying the "preservation"-euphemism that thing has as its party-line at all; the past peoples are dead as dead can be, reduced to fuel to power those things, so do not even start giving me that.

Now look at the Catalyst. It is contrained by its programming and is told to find the most efficient way to go about it and has ZERO understanding of organic morals. It's like placing a boulder at the top of a hill. Gravity will "program" the boulder to roll down as that is the fastest/most efficient way to get down the hill. If the boulder squishes a hillside village, it's tragic, but you can't blame the boulder because it rolled down and let gravity do its thing.

I do not buy the thing's laughable fire-analogy, I am not buying this either. The thing_has_agency, as expressed by its intention to make Synthesis happen at some point before. Whether it is simply carrying out a program of the one or two potentially insane individuals that conceived this thing is irrelevant.
And as I said before: whoever came up with this construct made one horrible heck of a mistake, whether on purpose - which, as I said, would make them baloneyer than baloney can ever be - or accidentally. The only course of action I can even contemplate is to see that thing erased, the fire "put out" if you will.

I'm not saying it's "wrong" to blame the Catalyst and treat it like an individual. We are bound by our morals and the imperfection that lends us is ironically our pride in our morality. By all means hate the Reapers and the Catalyst. But doing so is a blind hate because they're not the ones at fault. It's a tragedy that there is blame to put but the entity that deserves it is no more (unless you look at Harby perhaps).

Please...I am not above trying to understand the reasoning behind antagonists as monstrous as the Reapers, but in the Reapers' case, I am not even going to entertain that.
Look at how their farming season right in the game, right in the current cycle is presented and then come back and claim that they are not despicable to the root.


And since Synthesis would happen eventually anyhow_without_the Green magic beam, even less reason to pick that, do you not agree?

Modifié par Chashan, 07 août 2012 - 02:08 .

[zambot]

Synthesis is space magic. You can headcanon whatever you want, and it is perfectly valid.

Brainwashing? Yes space magic does that!
Perfect everlasting utpoia? Yes, space magic does that!
Unicorns orbiting Saturn? Yes, space magic does that!

Why do people insist on trying to apply logic to the illogical.  There is no such thing as synthetic dna, essence, and imparting understanding to machines.  It's ludicrous.  It's vacous.  Who's to say what happens when you create synthetic dna using Shepard's essence and bring understanding to machines?  I say it means everyone has a kumbaya moment and smokes a lot of weed.  There's nothing you can say to disprove that it doesn't.

Modifié par zambot, 07 août 2012 - 02:11 .

[NKKKK]

The Angry One wrote...

Oh my god I missed that. Did she actually headcanon that the species in past cycles "refused" synthesis?
How in the blue blazes do you "refuse" green space magic molecules or whatever being integrated into your DNA? And she speaks to *me* about headcanon? Logical inference? Based on *what*?

Hell, if you *could* "refuse" synthesis... don't you think Javik would? Do you honestly think Javik would accept this after everything he said?

Gosh you're just nasty and venomous aren't you?

Another question. When looking at the cutscenes, why must we see it as
lovingly accepting the Reapers instead of people begrudgingly accepting
the Reaper's help. Why do people insist on the former happening instead
of the latter?

Because spiteness, they want to find something to hate and they do. A lot of the fans don't agree with Synthesis, but this is a largely an extension on the ending hate.

If they told me that a giant space god who was hell bent on killing us, no longer wanted to kill us after months of horrible war, I'd say "sure whatever, I just want peace."

And I'm sure 99 percent of the nerd posters here would.

[Wayning_Star]

zambot wrote...

Synthesis is space magic. You can headcanon whatever you want, and it is perfectly valid.

Brainwashing? Yes space magic does that!
Perfect everlasting utpoia? Yes, space magic does that!
Unicorns orbiting Saturn? Yes, space magic does that!

Why do people insist on trying to apply logic to the illogical.  There is no such thing as synthetic dna, essence, and imparting understanding to machines.  It's ludicrous.  It's vacous.  Who's to say what happens when you create synthetic dna using Shepard's essence and bring understanding to machines?  I say it means everyone has a kumbaya moment and smokes a lot of weed.  There's nothing you can say to disprove that it doesn't.

I can't help but say arguement that utilze the term "space magic" are just a cop out on the sci fi aspect of ME3. Players who cop that attitude cannot really enjoy the game, imo Actually most all video games require a stretched imagination. It's not that hard to imagine, though, molecular rearrangement from a race that brought Shep back from the dead. No body called that space magic? It's mostly reserved for synthesis and the dreaded green beam'n eyes. (of which I took some issue with..the eyes was a bit over the top for me as well, the beam, well, no different than the relays or reaper threat from the distant past without history lessons..)

Modifié par Wayning_Star, 07 août 2012 - 03:36 .

[Wayning_Star]

Chashan wrote...

 

So the Reapers have ZERO agency. I'm not saying everyone should live happily with them, of course it will be difficult because you cannot blame the Reapers for what they did. The REapers' only fault is basically dying and not stopping the Catalyst from (a) continuing the cycle (while they were still fighting the Reapers) or ( forming a Reaper from their species. You can hate on them for failing to defeat the Reapers in their own time basically, but that's about it.

Wait a minute, are you_blaming_the peoples that were gooified by these erratic machines for what said machines are doing?

Far as I am concerned, I am not buying the "preservation"-euphemism that thing has as its party-line at all; the past peoples are dead as dead can be, reduced to fuel to power those things, so do not even start giving me that.

Now look at the Catalyst. It is contrained by its programming and is told to find the most efficient way to go about it and has ZERO understanding of organic morals. It's like placing a boulder at the top of a hill. Gravity will "program" the boulder to roll down as that is the fastest/most efficient way to get down the hill. If the boulder squishes a hillside village, it's tragic, but you can't blame the boulder because it rolled down and let gravity do its thing.

I do not buy the thing's laughable fire-analogy, I am not buying this either. The thing_has_agency, as expressed by its intention to make Synthesis happen at some point before. Whether it is simply carrying out a program of the one or two potentially insane individuals that conceived this thing is irrelevant.
And as I said before: whoever came up with this construct made one horrible heck of a mistake, whether on purpose - which, as I said, would make them baloneyer than baloney can ever be - or accidentally. The only course of action I can even contemplate is to see that thing erased, the fire "put out" if you will.

I'm not saying it's "wrong" to blame the Catalyst and treat it like an individual. We are bound by our morals and the imperfection that lends us is ironically our pride in our morality. By all means hate the Reapers and the Catalyst. But doing so is a blind hate because they're not the ones at fault. It's a tragedy that there is blame to put but the entity that deserves it is no more (unless you look at Harby perhaps).

Please...I am not above trying to understand the reasoning behind antagonists as monstrous as the Reapers, but in the Reapers' case, I am not even going to entertain that.
Look at how their farming season right in the game, right in the current cycle is presented and then come back and claim that they are not despicable to the root.


And since Synthesis would happen eventually anyhow_without_the Green magic beam, even less reason to pick that, do you not agree?

the past people are dead is a value judgement, not fact. Players don't know exactly what happed to the harvested, only that their physical bodies were melted down for use in the construction of reaper ships. These ships still contain their DNA and, apperently their culture and are considered, as reapers, part of their culture as 'independent nations', thats the description of Reapers. So it's a given that something of the past harvested civilizations still exist. We just don't know what that means.

Wiping out the reapers is wiping out their memory, down to their last DNA molecular construction. Reapers are driven by their programing, evoked by the Catalyst. This is what the story tells of it all. Their actions are despicable, but that doesn't mean they're in full control of their faculties. So that means they're not totally to be held accountable for something they  themselves cannot prevent, for some unknown reason. IF it can be corrected by sharing data, then why not?

[JShepppp]

Chashan wrote...

 

So the Reapers have ZERO agency. I'm not saying everyone should live happily with them, of course it will be difficult because you cannot blame the Reapers for what they did. The REapers' only fault is basically dying and not stopping the Catalyst from (a) continuing the cycle (while they were still fighting the Reapers) or ( forming a Reaper from their species. You can hate on them for failing to defeat the Reapers in their own time basically, but that's about it.

Wait a minute, are you_blaming_the peoples that were gooified by these erratic machines for what said machines are doing?

Far as I am concerned, I am not buying the "preservation"-euphemism that thing has as its party-line at all; the past peoples are dead as dead can be, reduced to fuel to power those things, so do not even start giving me that.

No, I was pointing out the futility of assigning the Reapers blame by giving a hyperbole of an example (as you noted the example is ludicrous). And if you believe THE Reapers have no essence of their former species, then that's even more of an argument to suggest they are pure machines and slaves to the Catalyst.

Now look at the Catalyst. It is contrained by its programming and is told to find the most efficient way to go about it and has ZERO understanding of organic morals. It's like placing a boulder at the top of a hill. Gravity will "program" the boulder to roll down as that is the fastest/most efficient way to get down the hill. If the boulder squishes a hillside village, it's tragic, but you can't blame the boulder because it rolled down and let gravity do its thing.

I do not buy the thing's laughable fire-analogy, I am not buying this either. The thing_has_agency, as expressed by its intention to make Synthesis happen at some point before. Whether it is simply carrying out a program of the one or two potentially insane individuals that conceived this thing is irrelevant.
And as I said before: whoever came up with this construct made one horrible heck of a mistake, whether on purpose - which, as I said, would make them baloneyer than baloney can ever be - or accidentally. The only course of action I can even contemplate is to see that thing erased, the fire "put out" if you will.

It was given a problem and tried different solutions. It accepts that it is not 100% right and readily admits the Reapers are an imperfect solution. You know this because the Reapers were not its first choice. It basically, after several attempts, found it impossible to solve its problem so it just tried to pre-emptively stop it from being a big deal. It circumvents the problem and does not solve it. Synthesis was a way to solve the problem by changing the paramters to make it solvable, but the Catalyst discovered it was not within its power.

Its agency is limited. That is the point. As its agency is limited, it cannot be held 100% responsible for the cycles.

I'm not saying it's "wrong" to blame the Catalyst and treat it like an individual. We are bound by our morals and the imperfection that lends us is ironically our pride in our morality. By all means hate the Reapers and the Catalyst. But doing so is a blind hate because they're not the ones at fault. It's a tragedy that there is blame to put but the entity that deserves it is no more (unless you look at Harby perhaps).

Please...I am not above trying to understand the reasoning behind antagonists as monstrous as the Reapers, but in the Reapers' case, I am not even going to entertain that.

Your statement is a little contradictory but I don't know why one should not delve into the mindset of fictional villains unless you just don't want to, in which case that's like trying to eat a cake but refusing to eat frosting, no offense, with the kind of discussion we are having. Unless I don't understand what we're talking about at all.

Look at how their farming season right in the game, right in the current cycle is presented and then come back and claim that they are not despicable to the root.

The solution is abhorrent by our moral standards. But it's not the Reapers' fault at all, and the Catalyst is not entirely at fault either. Both do not have the ability to fully realize their agency; they may be sentient or not, but they are shackled, 100% in the case of the Reapers (e.g. completely - NO other AI has ever been as shackled as the Reapers in mass effect fiction) and some number less than 100% for the Catalyst.

Nobody is embracing the Reaper solution. But I've always thought human morality always placed heavy emphasis on the intent to commit a crime, and therefore I unfortunately cannot blame the Reapers no matter how much I want to. Do you blame Shepard for shooting Anderson or do you blame TIM and/or the Reapers/Catalyst? If you blame Shepard, then fine, blame the Reapers for their actions. But Shepard was not controlled 100% when he shot Anderson - the Reapers are always controlled 100%; therefore, whatever blame you assign Shepard for shooting Anderson should be the MAXIMUM blame you'd assign the Reapers for their actions unless you have a huge bias just because you hate the Reapers, in which case that would be a shame and weakness and the Catalyst is right that lasting peace is impossible.

Blaming the Catalyst is a different issue as we don't know how much agency it actually has.

And since Synthesis would happen eventually anyhow_without_the Green magic beam, even less reason to pick that, do you not agree?

Let me make a crude reference/analogy. Let's say that you will eventually earn $1 million over the course of your lifetime. Then someone randomly says you can go for the $1 million today. That's the equivalent of synthesis. Why not take the shortcut? The only reason would be distrusting the Catalyst, though there is more reason to trust it than not with some common sense. I would elaborate further but it hinges on a few things: (1) Catalyst could've left Shepard to die, (2) Catalyst admits that it controls the Reapers and doesn't pretend to be an Avina-style VI for the Crucible, (3) disbelieving it on one thing means you might as well not believe it on anything (e.g. what if shooting the thing makes synthesis and jumping into the beam is really destroy? not trusting the catalyst opens a huge jar of worms).

[Wayning_Star]

The Angry One wrote...

Oh yes of course I'm the one relying on headcanon and not taking everything from the established characters and events of the game, and showing how they don't fit with the false utopia of synthesis.

On people's reactions to Reapers.
Hey, Atreiya, ever heard the term "too soon"? Or does that not register anywhere?
Thought not. Your attempts to mock me fall flat on their face as always.

Of course you refuse to recognise just what a horrific impact the Reapers would have on the human psyche. Beings who not only kill, but torture and mutilate, who twist minds and terrorise, who declare you nothing but a resource to be used or disposed of as they see fit. The sheer horror of spending months fighting these things, watching your friends and family be butchered.
That'd get in the way of your agenda now, wouldn't it.

The Reapers are not a country. They're not saying sorry and going away to their own corner. They're stopping because we were remade in their image. They are satisfied. Why should we be? Hm?

Respond with your usual tirade of insults if you must, Atreiya. I'll pay no more attention to you. But do try not to misrepresent your opponents next time, alright? Ta.

Edit: Oh yes, just to address the "emotions" of the LI.
False dilemma, sweetie. The indoctrinated display emotions all the time. Look at TIM on the Citadel.

actually no, the appearance of self rightous indignation doesn't cover the facts of the reapers plight. They are slaves to the process of the cycle as much as any organic or synthetic life form in existence. They'd be the last to admit it, mainly because they're unable to admit stuff, being nothing more than minor AI's. The Catalyst is a major AI, but not fully sapient. That's why everyone cannot understand it's logic, being emotional organic creations. And all that entails.

The Reapers are 'seperate nations' of organic/synthetic life forms take during countless cycles of harvests. They are worth the risk of syntheisis, in the  slightest chance of releasing them from their prison, within the reaper ships containment cells. To destroy the reapers is too high a price to pay, being responsible for their loss is basically out of sync with Shepards 'calling'. To rid the MEU of the Reaper threat.

The other choices only delay it, or molify it, through control. Leaving the past harvested pened up for the duration of Sheps imprisonment inside a reaper. He's not an AI, like many believe, he's a prisoner of a bad life choice... He couldn't 'control' the reapers because they are 'nations' themselves, and would break away from it eventually. Just like the MEU did with his help.

[Bill Casey]

Stop talking as if the "synthetics will inevitably kill organics" thing is real...
It's racist...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 07 août 2012 - 03:04 .

[zambot]

Wayning_Star wrote...

zambot wrote...

Synthesis is space magic. You can headcanon whatever you want, and it is perfectly valid.

Brainwashing? Yes space magic does that!
Perfect everlasting utpoia? Yes, space magic does that!
Unicorns orbiting Saturn? Yes, space magic does that!

Why do people insist on trying to apply logic to the illogical.  There is no such thing as synthetic dna, essence, and imparting understanding to machines.  It's ludicrous.  It's vacous.  Who's to say what happens when you create synthetic dna using Shepard's essence and bring understanding to machines?  I say it means everyone has a kumbaya moment and smokes a lot of weed.  There's nothing you can say to disprove that it doesn't.

I can't help but say arguement that utilze the term "space magic" are just a cop on the sci fi aspect of ME3. Players who cop that attitude cannot really enjoy the game, imo Actually most all video games require a stretched imagination. It's not that hard to imagine, though, molecular rearrangement from a race that brought Shep back from the dead. No body called that space magic? It's mostly reserved for synthesis and the dreaded green beam'n eyes. (of which I took some issue with..the eyes was a bit over the top for me as well, the beam, well, no different than the relays or reaper threat from the distant past without history lessons..)

I disagree.  There is a different about picking magic to base your sci-fi on, and using magic to resolve your ending.  The former asked you (the audience) the question: "what if there existed this technology, called element zero, that allowed FTL travel to all corners of the galaxy?".  We then embark on an exploratative journey exploring all the consequences (good and bad) that come from that assumption.

The latter isn't really a question.  It's a statement.  "And then, through this technology, called synthetic dna laced with essence and understanding, peace is achieved with the reapers and society rockets ahead to new untold places."  Ok....that feels a lot like a god just swooped in with new technology and just solved all our problems.  

I really did enjoy the game, but I find synthesis to be really far fetched.  

Modifié par zambot, 07 août 2012 - 03:09 .

[Peranor]

zambot 


I disagree.  There is a different about picking magic to base your sci-fi on, and using magic to resolve your ending.  The former asked you (the audience) the question: "what if there existed this technology, called element zero, that allowed FTL travel to all corners of the galaxy?".  We then embark on an exploratative journey exploring all the consequences (good and bad) that come from that assumption.

The latter isn't really a question.  It's a statement.  "And then, through this technology, called synthetic dna laced with essence and understanding, peace is achieved with the reapers and society rockets ahead to new untold places."  Ok....that feels a lot like a god just swooped in with new technology and just solved all our problems.  

I really did enjoy the game, but I find synthesis to be really far fetched.  

Well said

[Bill Casey]

Synthesis alters all life in the galaxy...
If it doesn't alter minds, then why is it required?

What is the point?

[Wayning_Star]

zambot wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

zambot wrote...

Synthesis is space magic. You can headcanon whatever you want, and it is perfectly valid.

Brainwashing? Yes space magic does that!
Perfect everlasting utpoia? Yes, space magic does that!
Unicorns orbiting Saturn? Yes, space magic does that!

Why do people insist on trying to apply logic to the illogical.  There is no such thing as synthetic dna, essence, and imparting understanding to machines.  It's ludicrous.  It's vacous.  Who's to say what happens when you create synthetic dna using Shepard's essence and bring understanding to machines?  I say it means everyone has a kumbaya moment and smokes a lot of weed.  There's nothing you can say to disprove that it doesn't.

I can't help but say arguement that utilze the term "space magic" are just a cop on the sci fi aspect of ME3. Players who cop that attitude cannot really enjoy the game, imo Actually most all video games require a stretched imagination. It's not that hard to imagine, though, molecular rearrangement from a race that brought Shep back from the dead. No body called that space magic? It's mostly reserved for synthesis and the dreaded green beam'n eyes. (of which I took some issue with..the eyes was a bit over the top for me as well, the beam, well, no different than the relays or reaper threat from the distant past without history lessons..)

I disagree.  There is a different about picking magic to base your sci-fi on, and using magic to resolve your ending.  The former asked you (the audience) the question: "what if there existed this technology, called element zero, that allowed FTL travel to all corners of the galaxy?".  We then embark on an exploratative journey exploring all the consequences (good and bad) that come from that assumption.

The latter isn't really a question.  It's a statement.  "And then, through this technology, called synthetic dna laced with essence and understanding, peace is achieved with the reapers and society rockets ahead to new untold places."  Ok....that feels a lot like a god just swooped in with new technology and just solved all our problems.  

I really did enjoy the game, but I find synthesis to be really far fetched.  

I still enjoy the game and really enjoy the crazy theory as well. Far fetched is nothing in this game as opposed to other sci fi I've read over the years. The real trouble with this story is the difficulty with writing the story with enough endings that could possible satisfy interactive players. Everyone has their own 'best idea' for what stuff means, or could mean. Synthesis is one of those far fetched notions that, as humans, we'll eventually create an artificial intelligence capable of competing with us. Synthesis, imo, 'tests' that hypothetical. We, as the term denotes, are "users" and the machines are the 'use-ees'. Every day we utilize machines for common tasks,as those 'tasks' advance, the closer to 'synthesis' we become. Kind of simplistic, but that's the way I kind of see the "moral" of the reaper threat. It's played out in a huge stage with multiple contrasts, but in essence, thats it to the ME trilogy.

I really believe  that the new DLC will shed even more light on that learning curve. lol (maybe, I don't know for sure, but really suspect that it will.)

Modifié par Wayning_Star, 07 août 2012 - 03:25 .

[Ticonderoga117]

saracen16 wrote...
The logic of the Catalyst is that organic-synthetic conflict is inevitable, not impossible. Diplomacy would never work in such a setting as it is only temporary.

So? Does that mean we should say "F U Iran, I'm dropping the bomb on you!" because diplomacy is only temporary? Please, that's a stupid way to go about managing the world, never mind the Galaxy.

The Catalyst does discriminate between advanced species and non-advanced species. Of course the Creators disapproved of its solution because the Creators were an advanced race.

And? They're gonna kill them off in 50k years!

What mattered is that they struck the home planets. They effectively crippled the advanced civilizations before they had any chance to mount a counter-offensive against them. The turians managed to do well but eventually they had to retreat near the end of the game.

Crippled? So we managed to hold them off and build the largest waste of resources this side of Mars while crippled? Seriously?

I've had enough of your disingenuous assertions. Really. The leaders are not morons. They simply are not foolish, and there's a line between bravery and foolishness. The leaders have tried outright assault even with the might of the krogans at the side of the turians, and they still managed to only slow down the Reapers. The Reapers have to be stopped, and only the Crucible can do that. Do you want to rewrite the entire story of the trilogy? Be my guest.

They ARE.
Council: We believe in the Reaper threat. *5 min later* What threat?
Hackett: I'm going to lose an entire fleet, and then when we fight the final battle, simply charge them.
Anderson: Allos Udina to be Councilor. Charges a skyscrapper without trying to distract it. At all. Or, send in a bloody infiltrator team with cloaks to reach the beam!
Dalatrass Linron: I can't let you do that commander! Even if we might die because of it, I must be a complete b*tch to you and your team.
The Defense Committee: We don't know what to do!
Everyone who built the Crucible: We are building something that is incomplete that can bankrupt what we have left and we HAVE NO IDEA WHAT IT DOES. Nor will we test it, because that makes too much sense.
The Quarian Admiralty: Attack the Geth instead of asking "Hey, do you mind if we have our planet back?"
The Geth: Joining with the Reapers. At all.
Every trooper in that one scene against the Destroyer on Earth: Trying to kill a destroyer without anything heavier in firepower THAN A GRENADE LAUNCHER. CAINs or Fleets!
Shepard: Everything involving GlowBrat except the refuse speech. He then goes stupid again when he shuts up.
Thane: Not shooting KL.
TIM: Implanting troops with REAPER TECH while REAPERS are invading.

And you failed to respond to the fact that the Reapers are not evil.

Because they are. Period.

[NKKKK]

Because they are. Period.

No, Reapers are ultimately slaves.

[Wayning_Star]

Bill Casey wrote...

Synthesis alters all life in the galaxy...
If it doesn't alter minds, then why is it required?

What is the point?

I think it may have to do with POV. Without intimate knowledge and understanding, confusion/fear may rule. It's kind of a rule of self preservation. Predatory vs prey. Competition for what ever trips your trigger at the time, and the why's of it all. And, of course, the social aspect of learning such things.

[Ticonderoga117]

NKKKK wrote...
No, Reapers are ultimately slaves.

Tell that to some people.
You'll get "Oh no, the Catalyst doesn't control squat", which is BS.

However, I like to think back before GlowBrat killed the majority of ME1 and 2's lore.

[Wayning_Star]

NKKKK wrote...

Because they are. Period.

No, Reapers are ultimately slaves.

I kind of equate them as "combine jailors" stuck in the catalysts' self dug rut. The real culprits are their creators, dumb bunnys, the lot of'em.

[Ticonderoga117]

Wayning_Star wrote...
I kind of equate them as "combine jailors" stuck in the catalysts' self dug rut. The real culprits are their creators, dumb bunnys, the lot of'em.

The Creators were fine. The "reaping" wasn't thier idea.
It was GlowBoy's... on his own accord.

[Bill Casey]

Wayning_Star wrote...

I think it may have to do with POV. Without intimate knowledge and understanding, confusion/fear may rule. It's kind of a rule of self preservation. Predatory vs prey. Competition for what ever trips your trigger at the time, and the why's of it all. And, of course, the social aspect of learning such things.

Forcible understanding is brainwashing...
It's thought reform...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 07 août 2012 - 03:35 .