Ticonderoga117 wrote...
NKKKK wrote...
No, Reapers are ultimately slaves.
Tell that to some people.
You'll get "Oh no, the Catalyst doesn't control squat", which is BS.
However, I like to think back before GlowBrat killed the majority of ME1 and 2's lore.
Wayning_Star wrote...
Synthesis is one of those far fetched notions that, as humans, we'll eventually create an artificial intelligence capable of competing with us. Synthesis, imo, 'tests' that hypothetical. We, as the term denotes, are "users" and the machines are the 'use-ees'. Every day we utilize machines for common tasks,as those 'tasks' advance, the closer to 'synthesis' we become. Kind of simplistic, but that's the way I kind of see the "moral" of the reaper threat. It's played out in a huge stage with multiple contrasts, but in essence, thats it to the ME trilogy.
Bill Casey wrote...
Forcible understanding is brainwashing...Wayning_Star wrote...
I think it may have to do with POV. Without intimate knowledge and understanding, confusion/fear may rule. It's kind of a rule of self preservation. Predatory vs prey. Competition for what ever trips your trigger at the time, and the why's of it all. And, of course, the social aspect of learning such things.
It's thought reform...
Ticonderoga117 wrote...
Wayning_Star wrote...
I kind of equate them as "combine jailors" stuck in the catalysts' self dug rut. The real culprits are their creators, dumb bunnys, the lot of'em.
The Creators were fine. The "reaping" wasn't thier idea.
It was GlowBoy's... on his own accord.
Someone With Mass wrote...
This is why we should destroy everything involving the Reapers.
JShepppp wrote...
No, I was pointing out the futility of assigning the Reapers blame by giving a hyperbole of an example (as you noted the example is ludicrous). And if you believe THE Reapers have no essence of their former species, then that's even more of an argument to suggest they are pure machines and slaves to the Catalyst.
It was given a problem and tried different solutions. It accepts that it is not 100% right and readily admits the Reapers are an imperfect solution. You know this because the Reapers were not its first choice. It basically, after several attempts, found it impossible to solve its problem so it just tried to pre-emptively stop it from being a big deal. It circumvents the problem and does not solve it. Synthesis was a way to solve the problem by changing the paramters to make it solvable, but the Catalyst discovered it was not within its power.
Its agency is limited. That is the point. As its agency is limited, it cannot be held 100% responsible for the cycles.
Your statement is a little contradictory but I don't know why one should not delve into the mindset of fictional villains unless you just don't want to, in which case that's like trying to eat a cake but refusing to eat frosting, no offense, with the kind of discussion we are having. Unless I don't understand what we're talking about at all.
The solution is abhorrent by our moral standards. But it's not the Reapers' fault at all, and the Catalyst is not entirely at fault either. Both do not have the ability to fully realize their agency; they may be sentient or not, but they are shackled, 100% in the case of the Reapers (e.g. completely - NO other AI has ever been as shackled as the Reapers in mass effect fiction) and some number less than 100% for the Catalyst.
Nobody is embracing the Reaper solution. But I've always thought human morality always placed heavy emphasis on the intent to commit a crime, and therefore I unfortunately cannot blame the Reapers no matter how much I want to. Do you blame Shepard for shooting Anderson or do you blame TIM and/or the Reapers/Catalyst? If you blame Shepard, then fine, blame the Reapers for their actions. But Shepard was not controlled 100% when he shot Anderson - the Reapers are always controlled 100%; therefore, whatever blame you assign Shepard for shooting Anderson should be the MAXIMUM blame you'd assign the Reapers for their actions unless you have a huge bias just because you hate the Reapers, in which case that would be a shame and weakness and the Catalyst is right that lasting peace is impossible.
Blaming the Catalyst is a different issue as we don't know how much agency it actually has.
Let me make a crude reference/analogy. Let's say that you will eventually earn $1 million over the course of your lifetime. Then someone randomly says you can go for the $1 million today. That's the equivalent of synthesis. Why not take the shortcut? The only reason would be distrusting the Catalyst, though there is more reason to trust it than not with some common sense. I would elaborate further but it hinges on a few things: (1) Catalyst could've left Shepard to die, (2) Catalyst admits that it controls the Reapers and doesn't pretend to be an Avina-style VI for the Crucible, (3) disbelieving it on one thing means you might as well not believe it on anything (e.g. what if shooting the thing makes synthesis and jumping into the beam is really destroy? not trusting the catalyst opens a huge jar of worms).
Modifié par Chashan, 07 août 2012 - 04:09 .
zambot wrote...
Wayning_Star wrote...
Synthesis is one of those far fetched notions that, as humans, we'll eventually create an artificial intelligence capable of competing with us. Synthesis, imo, 'tests' that hypothetical. We, as the term denotes, are "users" and the machines are the 'use-ees'. Every day we utilize machines for common tasks,as those 'tasks' advance, the closer to 'synthesis' we become. Kind of simplistic, but that's the way I kind of see the "moral" of the reaper threat. It's played out in a huge stage with multiple contrasts, but in essence, thats it to the ME trilogy.
I have no problems with exploring that technology. In fact, I think Deus Ex (both Human Revolution and the orignal) spend a lot of time exploring their vision of "synthesis" and what impacts it has on the future. The difference is that synthesis is the entire plot fo Deus Ex, and we experience the conequences of it, and ultimate have to make our own judgement about it. In ME3, it was like "blam! Synthesis! The End!".
I do no want to discount what you're saying though. The theme of reapers representing our reliance on technology and we can either a: destroy it, b: dominate it, or c: integrate it is definitely interesting. Had the writers actually executed that cleanly, we'd see different discussions on the endings, I think.
Wayning_Star wrote...
My impression was the it modified their program to suit its AI understanding of the creators concept involving relations between AI's and organic life forms.
Ticonderoga117 wrote...
Wayning_Star wrote...
I kind of equate them as "combine jailors" stuck in the catalysts' self dug rut. The real culprits are their creators, dumb bunnys, the lot of'em.
The Creators were fine. The "reaping" wasn't thier idea.
It was GlowBoy's... on his own accord.
NKKKK wrote...
Reapers are slaves to the system, synthesis ultimately frees them
Chashan wrote...
JShepppp wrote...
No, I was pointing out the futility of assigning the Reapers blame by giving a hyperbole of an example (as you noted the example is ludicrous). And if you believe THE Reapers have no essence of their former species, then that's even more of an argument to suggest they are pure machines and slaves to the Catalyst.
If they are just machines, why care if they are are stopped from reaping their crop, "us"?
That aside, I could make a case where, were things left to whatever gestalt consciousness the separate Reapers have - if they have one at all - they would prefer passing on, being bereft of their original existence as they are. The exchange with the Destroyer on Rannoch is quite telling in that regard, given its Paragon-option...
It was given a problem and tried different solutions. It accepts that it is not 100% right and readily admits the Reapers are an imperfect solution. You know this because the Reapers were not its first choice. It basically, after several attempts, found it impossible to solve its problem so it just tried to pre-emptively stop it from being a big deal. It circumvents the problem and does not solve it. Synthesis was a way to solve the problem by changing the paramters to make it solvable, but the Catalyst discovered it was not within its power.
Its agency is limited. That is the point. As its agency is limited, it cannot be held 100% responsible for the cycles.
That it still chose this "final solution" is reason enough to shut it down.
Your statement is a little contradictory but I don't know why one should not delve into the mindset of fictional villains unless you just don't want to, in which case that's like trying to eat a cake but refusing to eat frosting, no offense, with the kind of discussion we are having. Unless I don't understand what we're talking about at all.
Contradictory in so far as I am not willing to put a semblance of sense into the paradoxical bull that the thing presents. I could buy it doing what it is doing for its own selfish reasons - reproduction of its minions, maintaining the status quo of the Reapers as the pinnacle of the food chain in the galaxy. The reason why it is doing what it is doing, though...nope.
I can understand villainous creatures murdering whole worlds just to save themselves. I am not willing to follow a logic whereby an entire galaxy is cleansed continuously to "preserve" it from something we saw could be resolved by far simpler means within the game.
The solution is abhorrent by our moral standards. But it's not the Reapers' fault at all, and the Catalyst is not entirely at fault either. Both do not have the ability to fully realize their agency; they may be sentient or not, but they are shackled, 100% in the case of the Reapers (e.g. completely - NO other AI has ever been as shackled as the Reapers in mass effect fiction) and some number less than 100% for the Catalyst.
Nobody is embracing the Reaper solution. But I've always thought human morality always placed heavy emphasis on the intent to commit a crime, and therefore I unfortunately cannot blame the Reapers no matter how much I want to. Do you blame Shepard for shooting Anderson or do you blame TIM and/or the Reapers/Catalyst? If you blame Shepard, then fine, blame the Reapers for their actions. But Shepard was not controlled 100% when he shot Anderson - the Reapers are always controlled 100%; therefore, whatever blame you assign Shepard for shooting Anderson should be the MAXIMUM blame you'd assign the Reapers for their actions unless you have a huge bias just because you hate the Reapers, in which case that would be a shame and weakness and the Catalyst is right that lasting peace is impossible.
Blaming the Catalyst is a different issue as we don't know how much agency it actually has.
Still enough for it to be held accountable.
As for the rest, I already covered this before: I can go out of my way and interpret ending the Reapers' existence as a service to them. Might even start another topic on that when I feel like it and it hasn't been covered before, but whatever...
Let me make a crude reference/analogy. Let's say that you will eventually earn $1 million over the course of your lifetime. Then someone randomly says you can go for the $1 million today. That's the equivalent of synthesis. Why not take the shortcut? The only reason would be distrusting the Catalyst, though there is more reason to trust it than not with some common sense. I would elaborate further but it hinges on a few things: (1) Catalyst could've left Shepard to die, (2) Catalyst admits that it controls the Reapers and doesn't pretend to be an Avina-style VI for the Crucible, (3) disbelieving it on one thing means you might as well not believe it on anything (e.g. what if shooting the thing makes synthesis and jumping into the beam is really destroy? not trusting the catalyst opens a huge jar of worms).
Crude is the word; if it is inevitable and cannot be forced, let the galaxy reach it in their own time, on their own terms. "You cannot force it" and all that. Synthesis therefore is a rather meaningless shortcut, all things considered.
Then, why not be suspicious of that creature? Taking on the form of a kid Shepard witnessed die, whether it is not breaching that delusion of Shepard's make or deliberately takes that guise itself does not exactly make it too honest as far as its own likeness is concerned.
Going the circular route you went there is taking things a bit far, as I am sure you realise yourself.
Ticonderoga117 wrote...
NKKKK wrote...
Reapers are slaves to the system, synthesis ultimately frees them
Huh? Where did you pull THAT from?
Even if it did, they would be insane from BILLIONS of years being like that. Destroy is a mercy kill to those poor souls.
JShepppp wrote...
He pulled it from the ending.
We would consider it mercy, but would they (the races who created the Reapers)? Let them choose their own fate, they have that right. If we force our terms of existence on them, then we'll be no better than the Catalyst.
I don't believe they are pure machines. I was trying to talk about how you viewed them because if they have zero organic "essence" imbued in them then they must be pure machine by definition.
The paragon option is SHEPARD saying the Reaper-ized species can rest in peace. How does Shepard suddenly know all about what it's like to be a Reaper? I never remembered him learning this to a 100% degree of accuracy.
Also, you can make whatever case you want, but surely out of the tens of thousands of races that've been harvested, some have to have different moral codes than us. Some might want to choose to live, others might want to call it quits. But we don't know and don't have the right to force our views on them - doing so makes us just as bad as the Catalyst.
Let them pick. Synthesis will free them, and surely those that no longer want to live will fly into a sun and have peace. For the others - and we see others helping out - they can try to find some solace and comfort via connecting with all the life that is suddenly free.
Modifié par Chashan, 07 août 2012 - 04:42 .
Chashan wrote...
I don't believe they are pure machines. I was trying to talk about how you viewed them because if they have zero organic "essence" imbued in them then they must be pure machine by definition.
The paragon option is SHEPARD saying the Reaper-ized species can rest in peace. How does Shepard suddenly know all about what it's like to be a Reaper? I never remembered him learning this to a 100% degree of accuracy.
Also, you can make whatever case you want, but surely out of the tens of thousands of races that've been harvested, some have to have different moral codes than us. Some might want to choose to live, others might want to call it quits. But we don't know and don't have the right to force our views on them - doing so makes us just as bad as the Catalyst.
Let them pick. Synthesis will free them, and surely those that no longer want to live will fly into a sun and have peace. For the others - and we see others helping out - they can try to find some solace and comfort via connecting with all the life that is suddenly free.
I'll admit, showing some of the Reaper collective go and meet their makers of their own volition on screen would have been a fine thing to have in the actual cinematics of Green.
As things are presented, though...I simply cannot in all seriousness come up with a mental image of this happening willingly picking that choice, for reasons I have covered before.
The dialogue with the Destroyer was interesting because the thing shuts down right after Shepards make that specific statement. Which does ring with some truth to me, as I said.
You make a good point that, maybe, some of those peoples harvested do not mind their current existence as a collective. However, I hope you realise the game itself does not provide too much of that, if anything, itself. What being a Reaper "collective" is like is never truly covered within the game, although given the gruesomeness of the Collector base we got nothing much too positive to go by.
Ticonderoga117 wrote...
JShepppp wrote...
He pulled it from the ending.
We would consider it mercy, but would they (the races who created the Reapers)? Let them choose their own fate, they have that right. If we force our terms of existence on them, then we'll be no better than the Catalyst.
Where does it say that the minds of those poor bastards are free?
The race who created the Reapers would want us to destroy them BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T WANT THEM IN THE FIRST PLACE!
JShepppp wrote...
It was implied in synthesis, but you're right, it's not fully detailed so it could not be the case as well.
As for assuming Reapers would want us to destroy them - what if they're like Saren, who find any form of existence - even in Reaper form - is preferable to death? I'd say it should ideally be their choice then.
Now if someone doesn't trust the Reapers (e.g. a berserk Reaper would still be a problem) and wants to pre-emptively kill them, while they would be guilty of the same fallacy with which we accuse the Catalyst of (assuming Reapers will eventually turn on organics inevitably and therefore stopping events from going that far by deciding the Reapers' existence for them), that is understandable.
Modifié par Bill Casey, 07 août 2012 - 04:59 .
Bill Casey wrote...
If there was an ending to "free the reapers", I might pick it...
Instead we have universe raping and brainwashing for peace...
Endorlf wrote...
Bill Casey wrote...
If there was an ending to "free the reapers", I might pick it...
Instead we have universe raping and brainwashing for peace...
Out of curiosity, what in the Synthesis EC shows that this does not occur?
Michines are slave to there programing ifthey can'r change it. Ai can choose how to do there programing but are still slaves to their programing.Ticonderoga117 wrote...
Wayning_Star wrote...
I kind of equate them as "combine jailors" stuck in the catalysts' self dug rut. The real culprits are their creators, dumb bunnys, the lot of'em.
The Creators were fine. The "reaping" wasn't thier idea.
It was GlowBoy's... on his own accord.
If you understand the catalyst in any way, you'll know which one.Endorlf wrote...
Bill Casey wrote...
If there was an ending to "free the reapers", I might pick it...
Instead we have universe raping and brainwashing for peace...
Out of curiosity, what in the Synthesis EC shows that this does not occur?
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