107 réponses à ce sujet

[MKATAKM]

Creature 1 wrote...
I imagine most real men are lying dead on the flagstones, then. 

I actually saw several real men lying dead there (at least my real men) 
Then retreated like real women.

Modifié par MKATAKM, 22 décembre 2009 - 02:18 .

[JabberJaww]

First play through was the Broodmother for me. I also had a tough time in the back alley quests... and the Mage house in Denerim. But the Broodmother was the first time i had to downgrade to easy.



The Revenants in the Brecilian forest gave my an immence amount of headache.



Ser Cauthrien of course, but the game gears it to you losing for the Jailbreak portion, so i dont count that as a legitimate encounter, winable, but friggin' tough.. she was still hard before the Landsmeet, but not as hard

[Creature 1]

KariTR wrote...
By provoking them into attack, one would assume the soldiers will kill all of your group including Anora (if youre role-playing and not meta-gaming at any rate).

Why would you assume that?  Without Clauthrien being so overpowered that combat would not have been that hard.  True, there were a lot of archers, but my mage knows how to handle those (they don't shoot so well in a blizzard).  Mage?  Not a problem.  There's no way you could look at Clauthrien and say "We can't win, she hits harder than a high dragon" unless you are metagaming. 

As for the "I just want the warden, the rest of you can go" line, that is ridiculous.  When you find a band of people breaking into your ally's home and wiping out their guards, you don't just arrest a couple and shoo the rest out the door.  They should have thought of a better way to write that in.  

In role-playing terms, your character should assume that he or she can win a fight that doesn't initially appear to be any harder than others the group has won (attack at Redcliffe, Forgemaster et al., etc.) and also assume that arrest means execution, and that everyone in the group including Anora will die.  So I will fight her on every playthrough, but next time metagame by turning off potion use tactics. 

[Tirigon]

Creature 1 wrote...

KariTR wrote...
By provoking them into attack, one would assume the soldiers will kill all of your group including Anora (if youre role-playing and not meta-gaming at any rate).

Why would you assume that?  Without Clauthrien being so overpowered that combat would not have been that hard.  True, there were a lot of archers, but my mage knows how to handle those (they don't shoot so well in a blizzard).  Mage?  Not a problem.  There's no way you could look at Clauthrien and say "We can't win, she hits harder than a high dragon" unless you are metagaming. 

As for the "I just want the warden, the rest of you can go" line, that is ridiculous.  When you find a band of people breaking into your ally's home and wiping out their guards, you don't just arrest a couple and shoo the rest out the door.  They should have thought of a better way to write that in.  

In role-playing terms, your character should assume that he or she can win a fight that doesn't initially appear to be any harder than others the group has won (attack at Redcliffe, Forgemaster et al., etc.) and also assume that arrest means execution, and that everyone in the group including Anora will die.  So I will fight her on every playthrough, but next time metagame by turning off potion use tactics. 

In fact, you should assume that she will kill you immediately if you surrender or loose, and this is what should happen in a more consequent game. But since the tough fight is nice for once (and except for the archers not even that tough - sure, Cauthrien hits hard, but still weaker than Denerim hurlock General and [considering your better gear] revenants on early levels, which are a LOT harder btw) and the prison break is fun too it´s all right the way it is.


BTW, If they start to lock every door in a boss fight I´ll stop playing and study the toolset until I know how to make a "unlock every lock on map" spell. I really HATE the fights when you are closed in. It´s a different thing if it´s explained via story (for example you are lured in a room and in a cutscene guards close every door to trap you) but locking you in a room without such an explanation is one of the worst things you can do and ruins the fun for me.

Modifié par Tirigon, 22 décembre 2009 - 03:11 .

[Original182]

The reason why Cauthrien at Arl Howe's place is the hardest fight for me, is because my crowd control tactics don't work for that particular fight.

Broodmother? Mass Paralysis.
Spider Queen? Mass Paralysis. Spider Queen is also constantly paralysed or disabled, so I don't even know what she does that potentially makes the game hard.

But Cauthrien has a legion of archers spread out so nicely, that my Mass Paralysis spell cannot cover all of them. I can disable half of them, but that leaves the other half who are free to scattershot my whole party. Scattershot can damage everyone, but if that's not bad enough, it can prevent my mage from healing, and my party members from drinking health pots due to being stunned. And if I don't kill them fast enough, the ones paralysed will be ready to join in.

If that's not bad enough, Cauthrien also hits like a truck.

High Dragon is also easier because you really only need to heal one person if done right.

Modifié par Original182, 22 décembre 2009 - 03:27 .

[Keth Balderk]

I haven't quite finished yet (L20 or so and have done high dragon, Flemeth, Gaxxkang, Branka, Spider Queen, etc.), but the hardest fight has to be Sir Cauthrien at Howel's place. I'm not sure that this fight is beatable under the self-restrictions that I play (namely, pretend the AI is an intelligent person and use tactics, spells, and talents with that in mind). It would take a lot of reloading to find out. I think it may be possible for a twinked out arcane warrior to win - a tribute to the too-powerful-to-be-fun build. Most people either use zone area of effects or lure (especially lure and kite) to win this encounter. I don't like the zone effects (blizzard, inferno, etc.), because the soldiers simply should exit the main door, get out of the zone, and kill the mage/other targets with arrows. Standard security procedure is to guard the exits of a building after all. Lure simply should not work. Cauthrien may lead a charge, but most of the archers should follow right behind (if a human judge was running them). And kiting is just too cheap to discuss. Force fielding a tank is another commonly used cheap tactic. No, the cards are in the enemies hands in that battle. If I was running that battle (playing the enemy), the PC party would lose almost every time.

Even if you just lure Cauthrien out and kill her and the 2 guards (without kiting), this is still one of the toughest battles (depending on your party and equipment).

I think the designers meant for you to surrender. I think that players should save and do the fight and do the surrender thing to experience both (or at least replay and chose the other option), because both experiences are cool. The surrender gives the cooler role playing experience, but the fight gives the best challenge.

Edit: Comments made for trying to win at Hard difficulty.

Modifié par Keth Balderk, 22 décembre 2009 - 03:32 .

[Original182]

They should give you an achievement for killing Cauthrien at Arl Howe's place.

It will be called "Oops, I don't think you are meant to win this fight".

[Tirigon]

Lolz Keth. You say the AI is too stupid to fight correctly, but you are too. Luring (aka choosing the best ground to fight), AoE-attacks etc is a common and intelligent tactic. You would see NO real-life commander (at least none who ever wins) who will not use every advantage he has, who will let his most important weapon (here the mage) get shot if he can simply hide behind a wall to avoid this etc.... And while Force-fielding your tank is quite unrealistic, it would definitely be done if it was possible. Otherwise noone would use bullet-proof vests. They are too unfair. Same goes for bombs (AoE-attack), hidden snipers etc. Fighting is not about fairness. The fair guy is usually the one who dies.

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

Interesting, I didn't know you could beat Cauthrion. My party memebers all get smashed so I figured it couldn't be won. Maybe I don't put enough points in health, wow. Then again, coming from a wildly successful DPS raid in WoW, maybe I've been stuck in a mode. Then again, the buddy quest that comes after was so cool I didn't actually try that hard.



Damn you people! I've got to roll yet another character. :-D



My hardest fight is in the Blood Mage's den. The room right after the barricaded archers. It has taken me eight or nine trys to beat that room. Except on my (beloved) mage. Who I'm going to marry, just FYI. She was able to level that room by herself.



DPS4Life!

[keesio74]

CognitiveDissonant wrote...

I think he agrees that it is bad AI. Most people feel that this is a situation that causes the AI to make a ridiculous decision and decreases the difficulty of the encounter in a way that was not intended. Knowingly benefitting from accidental errors is considered cheese by many people.

Ok so agreed on the bad AI. But what is also dumb is not running for cover when confronted with like 10 archers and a mage right in from of you.

Anyway I didn't knowingly benefit from the bad AI. I saw the force in there and did what i always do when confronted with an overwhealming force - fall back to a better position and try to force enemies through a choke point.

Modifié par keesio74, 22 décembre 2009 - 03:51 .

[Keth Balderk]

Tirigon wrote...

Lolz Keth. You say the AI is too stupid to fight correctly, but you are too. Luring (aka choosing the best ground to fight), AoE-attacks etc is a common and intelligent tactic. You would see NO real-life commander (at least none who ever wins) who will not use every advantage he has, who will let his most important weapon (here the mage) get shot if he can simply hide behind a wall to avoid this etc.... And while Force-fielding your tank is quite unrealistic, it would definitely be done if it was possible. Otherwise noone would use bullet-proof vests. They are too unfair. Same goes for bombs (AoE-attack), hidden snipers etc. Fighting is not about fairness. The fair guy is usually the one who dies.

Wow, a flame war?! Trigon calls me stupid? Obviously, you don't know me. I'm having very good success playing the way I do on hard. I'm sure that I would find it easy to win on nightmare playing as you suggest. Please demonstrate more courtesy in the future.

I choose not to use any technique that would not be effective if my local game master was running the opposition. Obviously, I could use lure, kite, forcefield friendly, area of effect zone, etc., but anyone can be successful using those tactics, regardless of the difficulty setting. I have more respect for those who can win without using those tactics. Your analogies are inappropriate to describe what I am doing. The AI of computer chess is outstanding, but there are too many variables for the AI to be so "smart" in a game like this.

If you are interested in a challenge, you might give Improved Anvil (a free Baldur's Gate 2 mod) a try. You may want to use cheap tactics to win there too, but largely you won't be allowed to do so by the mod.

[Keth Balderk]

keesio74 wrote...

CognitiveDissonant wrote...

I think he agrees that it is bad AI. Most people feel that this is a situation that causes the AI to make a ridiculous decision and decreases the difficulty of the encounter in a way that was not intended. Knowingly benefitting from accidental errors is considered cheese by many people.

Ok so agreed on the bad AI. But what is also dumb is not running for cover when confronted with like 10 archers and a mage right in from of you.

Anyway I didn't knowingly benefit from the bad AI. I saw the force in there and did what i always do when confronted with an overwhealming force - fall back to a better position and try to force enemies through a choke point.

Actually, that is not dumb at all. It is unfortunate; however, that all/most of the enemies don't follow after you to kill you. I wish the AI was improved here. As it turns out, leaving = luring.

Modifié par Keth Balderk, 22 décembre 2009 - 03:56 .

[Tirigon]

@ Keth: I dont want a flamewar, but I think it´s ridiculous to call the AI stupid for not fighting realistically if you dont do so, either. Though maybe I should have chosen a less offensive word, sorry.

[SM84]

Ser Cauthrien definitely at Howls place. It got down to just me (2H warrior) and her and it was just a case of drink potion, hit, potion, hit.......



the Branka fight was hard too.

[xX-uniQue-Xx]

Both been said before, but for me it was Flemeth and Gaxkang The Unbound on my first playthrough.



I'd been developping Alistair/Morrigan/Wynne as my party, as tank/damage-dealer/healer respectively with my PC as a melee rogue. To make up for how useless my PC was (aside from opening anything with a lock on it, great iconic skill for our hero there!) I'd been playing mostly as Morrigan and had developed her AoE spells like Inferno, Blizzard and Tempest, using Wynne's Earthquake to support.



Cue entering into a 10x10 hovel for one of the toughest fights of my game, heh. Had it not been for cone of cold, definitely wouldn't made it out of that one in one piece.

[The Lord Protector]

Well it wasn't the Ogre in the Tower of Ishal, my third level thief took him down. ****! Score so far, Ogre 1 PCs 2. Ironically it's the human warrior that has the hardest time of it.

[T0paze]

Creature 1 wrote...

KariTR wrote...
By provoking them into attack, one would assume the soldiers will kill all of your group including Anora (if youre role-playing and not meta-gaming at any rate).

Why would you assume that?  Without Clauthrien being so overpowered that combat would not have been that hard.  True, there were a lot of archers, but my mage knows how to handle those (they don't shoot so well in a blizzard).  Mage?  Not a problem.  There's no way you could look at Clauthrien and say "We can't win, she hits harder than a high dragon" unless you are metagaming. 

As for the "I just want the warden, the rest of you can go" line, that is ridiculous.  When you find a band of people breaking into your ally's home and wiping out their guards, you don't just arrest a couple and shoo the rest out the door.  They should have thought of a better way to write that in.  

In role-playing terms, your character should assume that he or she can win a fight that doesn't initially appear to be any harder than others the group has won (attack at Redcliffe, Forgemaster et al., etc.) and also assume that arrest means execution, and that everyone in the group including Anora will die.  So I will fight her on every playthrough, but next time metagame by turning off potion use tactics. 

Whoa.  It appears we posted almost the same thing, only in different threads, with a 3-hour difference (your message being first). That's would I call agreement of opinion. 

Cauthrien may lead a charge, but most of the archers should follow right behind (if a human judge was running them).

.
Not necessarily. Cast Blood Wound at the beginning of the fight, and all of them will follow you. That's how I beat her without separating her from the rest of the guards.

Modifié par T0paze, 22 décembre 2009 - 06:59 .

[T0paze]

Keth Balderk, here a link to my post in which I described that scenario:

http://social.biowar...33410/2#404092. I spent quite some time thinking about the tactics in that fight because some scenarios were simply not believable while others unrealistically hard, not to mention the fact that they involved a very dumb decision (staying in that hall in front of the archers).

Modifié par T0paze, 22 décembre 2009 - 07:55 .

[MGeezer]

Sadly my toughest fights were not big memorable bosses but Thugs in Denerim, and bandit ambushes on the road at lower levels.

My first time through, the toughest boss or other major character was the Brood Mother, but my first character pretty much avoided any fight she could talk her way out of, so that skipped several that others found tough. This party used three mages (none arcane warriors), and thus also found revenants pretty tough. My second game (now L12), toughest so far (other than a bandit ambush) was the fight with two drakes and a bunch of dragonlings. With my 3 rogues and a dog party, it took me forever took forever to realize I could not let the drakes near anybody but our doggie--finally won by sending doggie forward and having all the rogues fight from a distance--I needed a similar approach for revenants.

Modifié par MGeezer, 22 décembre 2009 - 07:12 .

[Gecon]

Well, I must have done something right because, quite honestly, even the spider queen went down first time. Though that battle was an unusual mess and I had two deaths - no problem with two Spirit Healers in party and two revives available, and my main already had that stance to heal injuries during battle, too.

I have sided with Branka. The other guy was quite annoying in the beginning, started to chase my mage all over the place, but after a time he settled for the tank in the massive armor instead. Other than that, there where only some smaller golems.

Brood Mother went down second time only because I managed to kill myself the first time with Storm of the Century grmpf. Had I not had this stupid idea with SotC, she would have easily died first time, too.

[Gecon]

Sylixe wrote...

If the developers are reading this and learn one thing from it.  Your grand enemy at the end of the game is a serious wuss.  That fight needs to be totally retooled to make it even remotely difficult.

Well, I am not there yet - but I would assume thats because the devs needed to design this battle in a way even someone who did rush through the game has a chance to beat it.

[WillieStyle]

Original182 wrote...
But Cauthrien has a legion of archers spread out so nicely, that my Mass Paralysis spell cannot cover all of them. I can disable half of them, but that leaves the other half who are free to scattershot my whole party. Scattershot can damage everyone, but if that's not bad enough, it can prevent my mage from healing, and my party members from drinking health pots due to being stunned. And if I don't kill them fast enough, the ones paralysed will be ready to join in.

Pro tip: Sleep's AoE is much larger than that of mass paralyze.

[WillieStyle]

To folks saying Brood Mother:

You guys know you can just ignore the tentacles/adds and just burst the Brood Mother down right?

[jonnyblueballs]

There were some that i had to return to after i had leveled up, such as the revenants of the Brecilian forest, Gaxkang (not surprisingly to a Baldur's Gate veteran), and Flemeth. However, of the main story one, yup, Ser Cauthrien was the one that impressed me the most. Though at the moment i would've used a different verb there... she made me use the kind of language you'd expect from Oghren possessed by a rage demon. I don't really see the logic in one of her position being stronger than a 1000 year old dragon but whatever. So that must be the most memorable encounter, and one you can't level up to because it's a plot fight.



Other ones i can remember were Carridan, i mean one golem was tough but fighting two squads was way too much, and yeah the Brood Mother at first because my strategy was all wrong. I thought to attack the main **** with all i got, but that doesn't work because you just get slammed by the tentacles before you can do much damage.

[mariaklob]

Cauthrien, but "losing" that is expected.



JARVIA. I don't know what it is about her, but I've never gotten her on my first try.



Gaxkang. I never want to get that cozy with a revenant again.