108 réponses à ce sujet

[Prince Bubblegeth]

Thank you for this~

btw, you can aim slightly above Guardian shields with the Acolyte in order to hit them xD (like hitting enemies behind cover). works really well with cryo rounds

//// I really do wish they'd improve the Eagle s'more. I have it at III >_____<.

[greghorvath]

I can't stoop low enough to answer the other guy, but I have always (kinda) liked your comments so:

rmccowen wrote...

Shooting the breeze about idiomatic language

quite right. I was also pissing against the wind of "balancing"

I'd never heard "apples and pears" before today; two things that can't be meaningfully compared are always "apples and oranges" in American English.

aren't you glad you learnt something today?

But that "meaningfully" is the trick, really. It's easy to compare apples and pears and oranges, all together even--as long as you figure out a meaningful thing they're supposed to do or have. You can compare their median size, density, or pH; you can evaluate the typical Kcal or levels of various nutrients present in each; you can determine their relative suitability for fermentation as the basis of cider or spirits.

This is true again. Although please notice you aren't comparing the fruits as such but certain COMMON traits. So you're not right. Sorry. 

Putting DPS and mechanics math as basis for "balancing", comparing two weapons that behave in totally different ways (regardless of their damage) is loosing that thing you call a meaningful basis for comparison. You cannot compare the pH of an orange to the density of another orange.  


@other guy: I am going to make it clear for you cause apparently you have some problems with decoding texts: It is now that I am saying I am leaving the thread. Bye.

Modifié par greghorvath, 07 août 2012 - 08:18 .

[GodlessPaladin]

Updated... turns out I underestimated the Acolyte's damage multiplier against Shields/Barriers according to Eric Fagnan's latest mechanics clarification post, meaning that the comparison is even more unfavorable for the Eagle.

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 08 août 2012 - 01:37 .

[Bleachrude]

That revelation does give an interesting variable one could tweak the Eagle to give it own niche....

Armor = 200%, Barrier =150%, Shields = 125%

[scrappydoo]

Excellent analysis. It only confirms what I already suspected: the Eagle is an abomination.

It should be stripped of its ultra-rare status and cast into the Void.

[IceTrey1987]

Here is why the Eagle is good.

Faster than the acolyte. Lightweight. SMGs don't have a melee boost mod, pistols do.

I use it for lightweight power-heavy classes that get in close and melee at least from time to time.

Cerberguard, Fury, Shadow, Paladin, Slayer, Cerberus Adept, all of these classes work great with the Eagle. You'll only be using weapons to quickly finish people off and you might as well get the melee bonus if you have to carry something around.

[Ogrinash]

I think it needs a higher ROF. 1/3 higher or so.

[wraith27]

Numbers don't usually lie but I've always really liked the feel of this thing. Took it on gold with a salariengineer once and felt like it was much more useful than the other things I've rolled with.

[xtorma]

make it a pistol version of the harrier

[GodlessPaladin]

Bleachrude wrote...

That revelation does give an interesting variable one could tweak the Eagle to give it own niche....

Armor = 200%, Barrier =150%, Shields = 125%

The inherent multipliers against various defenses don't seem to be listed in the ini, which suggests that they may not be changeable through weekly balance changes.  Please correct me if I'm wrong.

[Biotic_Warlock]

Does anyone calculate the damage over time from the eagle?
There is some in there (somewhere) cos i go behind cover and in 3-4 seconds i see a target killed by Eagle.

[ToLazy4Name]

Many of the Black listed weapons (Javelin, Eagle, Crusader, MAYBE the Wraith) need to be buffed.

[EvoSigma]

The crusader and the eagle are the only blatant cancers within the commendation pack today... The crusader is supposed to be some kind of sniperifle shotgun which really confuses me as to why you wouldn't use a lighter sniper rifle or scoped high powered weapon. It's weight is crazy for such a terrible weapon if you would compare it to a claymore which is only rare. The eagle is already thoroughly explaiend in this thread.

[RobertM525]

Given that a round of Commendation Packs just went out, bringing this thread to the fore wouldn't be a bad thing, I think. 

GodlessPaladin wrote...

For starters, the Eagle should get the "weight range narrowing" treatment that the Saber, Crusader, Black Widow, Wraith, and Javelin got if they want it to fill the sidearm niche. Besides that, it just plain could use more damage via one means or another.

Personally, I'd be satisfied if it had more accuracy/less recoil rather than more damage. It's "advertised" as an "accurate, rapid-fire handgun," and yet it has high recoil and lower accuracy than any pistol save the Talon. As a Promotional weapon, I don't think it would be uncalled for if it had an accuracy of 65 and a recoil of 0.131 (like the Arc Pistol and Phalanx) or 0.175 (like the Indra). It would certainly make it unique among the pistols, and keep it true to its description.

Modifié par RobertM525, 15 août 2012 - 01:15 .

[Bleachrude]

GodlessPaladin wrote...

Bleachrude wrote...

That revelation does give an interesting variable one could tweak the Eagle to give it own niche....

Armor = 200%, Barrier =150%, Shields = 125%

The inherent multipliers against various defenses don't seem to be listed in the ini, which suggests that they may not be changeable through weekly balance changes.  Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Doesn't seem like it so we might have to wait for an actual patch. If not, give it the armour penetration ability to deal with guardians

[DullahansXMark]

Whoa, wait.

GodlessPaladin wrote...

Weight:  [0.6-0.25] means it can get almost as light as the Acolyte... if you can level it all the way up to X, which is pretty unlikely. 

You lucky SOB.

[blaze55555]

Go to your manifests, and scroll to the Eagle gun. Hover over it with your mouse cursor and wait for the pop-up box thingy.

"Accurate, Rapid-Fire handgun" - That's it's ingame concept that is written on every N7 UR card you get it with. "Accurate."

My proposed buff is to make the RoF between 250 and 350, and change the damage per shot to between the Phalanx and the Striker. At rank X, I could see it being between 143 (Phalanx X) and 185 (A little more than Striker X)

On the least side, it reaches a DPS of 595 with RoF of 250 and Damage of 143; but that's not precisely what I meant. Obviously I meant lower RoF = the higher range of damage, where, if you chose the higher RoF, you'd use the lower range of damage.
Min DPS = 143 * 250 /60 = 595
Low RoF DPS = 770.8333
High RoF DPS = 834.1666
Max DPS = 185 * 350 /60 = 1079.1666 (THAT is worthy of UR status DPS, but keep in mind, the Weight, so this is OP imo)

I'd go with one of the middle options, more or less. With a weight range of 0.55 to 0.3 or 0.5 to 0.3

AND. Accurate. Really? Accurate? Not once have I ever used this and thought "man... I can snipe with this... it's 'ACCURATE' at least." Take off the sniping part and I still haven't thought of that. When I really get it ramped up, it, the Avenger and the Phaeston I all notice the same thing: They are the exact opposite of accurate. I actually disliked them b/c I couldn't utilize their measly max DPS b/c I couldn't hold down the trigger otherwise shotguns became more accurate (or equally as accurate). Their spread is bad. So final change? Reduce aim error stats to minimal amounts. MAKE it actually accurate. It and the Phaeston i can't hit enemies with a full clip from ~10 meters out or more. At that point, the angle of spread gets so intense that bullets inherently miss. On top of that, the kick... you mentioned the kick is bad. I haven't tested it in a while but I'll take your word for it. Make it like a slower-firing, lower-DPS, higher-DPB, lighter version of the hurricane. DPS in the range of 750-850 with a weight a bit above the predator/acolyte.

My unasked-for 5$ donation, shoved down your throats.

[blaze55555]

EvoSigma wrote...

The crusader and the eagle are the only blatant cancers within the commendation pack today... The crusader is supposed to be some kind of sniperifle shotgun which really confuses me as to why you wouldn't use a lighter sniper rifle or scoped high powered weapon. It's weight is crazy for such a terrible weapon if you would compare it to a claymore which is only rare. The eagle is already thoroughly explaiend in this thread.

Compare the actual stats of the:
Claymore
Crusader
Black Widow
Widow
Javelin
Kishock (Charged)
Kishock (Uncharged)
Mantis
Viper
Paladin
and
Carnifex

Ask and I can give you a link where I compare most of these, the important stats that affect the DPS.
besides, why would you want an N7 weapon that fills a role already filled? There already is a claymore, and the Wraith does more damage per clip but ~60% damage per shot of the claymore with twice the clip size, and the Eviscerator does ~70%ish of the damage per shot of the Wraith, but has the same RoF and a clip size 1 larger (1 for Claymore, 2 for Wraith, 3 for Eviserator). Why would you want another copy of a kind of stereotypical gun that is so common. The crusader is like a great version combination of the above stated weapons. It has more damage per bullet than a lot of them, equal to or greater RoF than most, a Clip higher than all but the Carnifex and Saber, which is has a higher damage per bullet and RoF than. And on top of that, it has 0.50 meters of piercing, which only the Widow, Javelin, and BW have; Widow = 0.5m, BW = 0.25m and Javelin = 1meter. So the ammo per clip is 1 higher than the BW, and 3 higher than the Javelin and Widow. Damage per bullet is slighly higher than the BW iirc (it was close before the buff), it's ~50% and 60% of the Javelin and Widow damage per shots, so damage per clip is 2-3x the Widow and Javelin damage per clip. It can bypass shield gate issues better than the Widow or Javelin and has 1 extra shot for mistakes compared to the BW. It's not a bad gun, you just have to learn how to use it right. it's a better version of the Widow/BW/Javelin merged with accuracy, RoF, and clip size elements of the Carnifex/Paladin/Saber. It's epic.

[Steven83]

Downgrade N7 Eagle to Rare weapon to at least let people have it at X instead of wasting commendation pack rewards on it.

It's really a crime to how much this crap remains unchanged while new Rares are ripping crap up at double its effectiveness even with it at Rank X!

[blaze55555]

reducing rarity, if anything, would only get it up to rank X higher, while making sure you never get the Hurricane, Valiant, or Crusader until it's maxed. Why? Because it's not rare just b/c it's an UR gun, but also b/c it's a promotional gun. I don't say make it unpromotional (standard). I say buff it and fix ini stats. I disagree with Steven's post, just because BW shows how easy it is to edit ini files in title updates simply by how frequently they can and do churn them out.

[121andrew]

I don't mind the eagle on a Turian Sentinel with weapon damage amps.
Of course it isn't as amazing as other guns, but it lets me spam overload while having a decent damage output from the Eagle.

[Outlawstar15a2]

blaze55555 wrote...

EvoSigma wrote...

The crusader and the eagle are the only blatant cancers within the commendation pack today... The crusader is supposed to be some kind of sniperifle shotgun which really confuses me as to why you wouldn't use a lighter sniper rifle or scoped high powered weapon. It's weight is crazy for such a terrible weapon if you would compare it to a claymore which is only rare. The eagle is already thoroughly explaiend in this thread.

Compare the actual stats of the:
Claymore
Crusader
Black Widow
Widow
Javelin
Kishock (Charged)
Kishock (Uncharged)
Mantis
Viper
Paladin
and
Carnifex

Ask and I can give you a link where I compare most of these, the important stats that affect the DPS.
besides, why would you want an N7 weapon that fills a role already filled? There already is a claymore, and the Wraith does more damage per clip but ~60% damage per shot of the claymore with twice the clip size, and the Eviscerator does ~70%ish of the damage per shot of the Wraith, but has the same RoF and a clip size 1 larger (1 for Claymore, 2 for Wraith, 3 for Eviserator). Why would you want another copy of a kind of stereotypical gun that is so common. The crusader is like a great version combination of the above stated weapons. It has more damage per bullet than a lot of them, equal to or greater RoF than most, a Clip higher than all but the Carnifex and Saber, which is has a higher damage per bullet and RoF than. And on top of that, it has 0.50 meters of piercing, which only the Widow, Javelin, and BW have; Widow = 0.5m, BW = 0.25m and Javelin = 1meter. So the ammo per clip is 1 higher than the BW, and 3 higher than the Javelin and Widow. Damage per bullet is slighly higher than the BW iirc (it was close before the buff), it's ~50% and 60% of the Javelin and Widow damage per shots, so damage per clip is 2-3x the Widow and Javelin damage per clip. It can bypass shield gate issues better than the Widow or Javelin and has 1 extra shot for mistakes compared to the BW. It's not a bad gun, you just have to learn how to use it right. it's a better version of the Widow/BW/Javelin merged with accuracy, RoF, and clip size elements of the Carnifex/Paladin/Saber. It's epic.

I can't comment on the Crusader since I don't have one yet but your advice to me when I get it is to use it like I would a Black Widow?

[Outlawstar15a2]

Accidental double post (forum didn't display the first one so I assumed it didn't go through.)

Modifié par Outlawstar15a2, 14 septembre 2012 - 03:30 .

[blaze55555]

It has the accuracy and aiming reticle of the Saber/Carnifex/Paladin.
It has better damage per shot than the Carnifex, Saber, Paladin, and the Black Widow - At least at equal rank, though, now, at Rank X, it has 700+ damage, which is more than Rank X of any of those
It has worse damage per shot than the Javelin, Mantis, Widow, Kishock (uncharged), Kishock (charged), and yes, Claymore, BUT it has 4x the clip of those single-shot weapons, and by the second shot, it does more damage than any of them except the claymore, but it can do so twice, and the 4 round clip is often enough to kill 2-4 enemies in a single clip, or 1-2 enemies and miss a few shots, and have a chance to correct your aim and try again without standing, exposed, needing a reload badly
It has a RoF equal to the fastest RoF weapons among all weapons I've said so far; most weapons I mentioned have a lower RoF than the crusader, actually.
It has a higher Burst DPS and Sustained DPS than each weapon.

You don't NEED the scope to snipe... I like to do that a lot with a Carnifex with Piercing and Barrel mods. At looooong ranges (50m+) A black widow might perform better, but pretty much any other situation, the Crusader is a darn fine weapon, both pre- and post- both buffs. Not to mention it has 0.50 meters of innate penetration, which ties with the Widow, beats the Black Widow, and is half of the Javelin (and while we're at it, is double the Black Widow innate penetration and the Typhoon innate penetration)

It's main set-back is weight, so don't use it on caster-heavy classes which are reliant on quick cooldowns. And aside from infiltrators, there are a lot of classes that can utilize it in spite of the weight set-back.

I'm not saying use it like a Black Widow. I'm saying use it like a Crusader, and that, perhaps, you could swap a BW out with one and it could get the job done as well, if not better. Never use a gun "like" a different gun. If I were to say to use it like a gun, I would advise you to use it like a Saber/Carnifex/Paladin, due to accuracy parallels.

I just think people are rail-roading it b/c they're upset that a shotgun doesn't have multiple pellets which, if all hit, makes it massively overpowered, single-shot-damage-wise.

P.S. unlike the BW, Widow, Javelin, Viper, Valiant, and Mantis: You can hipfire the Crusader with no penalty, keeping the Crusader from becoming a hazard in CQC.

[JustinSonic]

Well written, but I still find the Eagle very useful. It could use a buff, but still...very useful.