37 réponses à ce sujet

[CELL55]

As many of you know, DA2 used a modified version of the Mass Effect dialogue wheel. But many times in DA2 my character felt very passive when I though it would have been great if they jumped in and did something dynamic. Alongside the dialog wheel, Mass Effect 2 introduced the Paragon/Renegade Interrupt System, which I feel can be easily modifies for Dragon Age's purposes to make more dynamic conversations. What do you guys think? 

[zyntifox]

I think Mass effect should be Mass effect, and Dragon age be Dragon age. Better way to make the dialogue more dynamic is to actually let the PC have more dialogue options and more frequent.

[lx_theo]

if they do it, it has to be in an almost entirely unique way.

[BubbleDncr]

The things I didn't like about the interrupt system:

1) There was usually only one option - meaning, when you interrupted, you didn't usually get to choose between interrupting paragon OR renegade, you just had to go with whichever they chose to pop up at the time.

2) The whole fact that its a flashing icon that pops up makes you think you're supposed to do it, and if you don't do it, you might be missing something cool - in fact, you usually do (especially with renegades).

They could solve the first one by just doubling the amount of work they put into interrupts, by making it so you can always interrupt "paragon" or "renegade" every time they allow for interrupts. But the only way I see the 2nd issue being solved is by allowing you to interrupt all the time, and not just specific points. Which would be completely ridiculous.

So I would prefer them to stay out of Dragon Age.

[Sylvanpyxie]

Given that the Dialogue Wheel in Dragon Age II has caused a lot of displeasure with fans, and i can understand why, it's very misleading sometimes, i think Bioware should focus more on perfecting the Dialogue Wheel before adding additional features.

I'm not saying there shouldn't be interrupt options in future Dragon Age games, cause i'm sure it would be interesting if it was introduced.

However, the Dialogue Wheel should be completely perfected before anything else is added to it.

Modifié par Sylvanpyxie, 07 août 2012 - 05:20 .

[CELL55]

Seeing as they are almost certainly keeping the dialog wheel for DA3, how do you guys think that the dialog can be more dynamic? If you don't like the interruption system of Mass Effect, then what do you think would replace it in Dragon Age?

For me, I can definitely say that I would like interruptions. When a blood mage spends, like, ten minutes prepping a spell, I spend the whole time wondering why I can't just throw the Murder Knife at them. Or tell Varric to shoot them. Or run away. Or do literally anything other than standing still like a chump.

[SteveGarbage]

I think the addition of the icons in the center of the wheel was a step in the right direction for the dialogue wheel (of which I don't really harbor any ill will against like some people). It helped to clarify some issues with the kind of delivery you could expect, although it was hardly perfect. However it could help me differentiate between a direct/forceful response (Red with gavel) and an aggressive/jerk response (Red fist) when I felt it was necessary.

I also think the personality tracking they did was a good thing that filled in some non-selective dialogue based on your history. Although I don't really think using that to tie to interrupts is the right choice, I would like to see additional conversations options that could lead to actions based on those things.

For example, if you have a nice guy Hawke, maybe you'd get an opportunity from time to time for a special dialogue option to give a companion a hug when they're feeling down. Or if you're a wiseguy Hawke you could exchange some kind of secret handshake with Varric when closing a conversation. Or an aggressive Hawke could ****slap a whiny companion.

Using a combination of the personality tracking along with friendship/rivalry could open the door for some great in-convo action options without having to resort to something more blunt like interrupts or paragon/renegade dialogues. The key is moderation. If these special things are only in every now and then (like the interrupts are) they retain some special purpose and then people will be more likely to want to play different types of characters to experience different possible mini-actions.

[Olmerto]

Interrupts are an "action game" feature. I doubt RPG fans, like me, would be happy with an immediate response requirement to their dialog selection in Dragon Age. Leave interrupts in actiony ME where they belong.

[CELL55]

Olmert wrote...

Interrupts are an "action game" feature. I doubt RPG fans, like me, would be happy with an immediate response requirement to their dialog selection in Dragon Age. Leave interrupts in actiony ME where they belong.

I just think that as long as they brought in the dialog wheel, why not also bring in interrupts? As I mentioned above, I certainly think that ther are occasions where I felt my roleplaying was stymied by the lack of a dynamic, "action game" interrupt.

[Amycus89]

I'm not really opposed to interrupts, but please keep your mass effect out of my dragon age. If you are going to add interrupts, add it in a way that still makes it feel like it isn't only reaction based. For example, instead of having either a paragon or renegade option, let us have several options at once with a visible timelimit, and where even not choosing and just standing there is an option. And, most important of all, have it so that only one or two choices lead to a good outcome, while the others either makes it worse, or no difference at all. That way it still requires us to think.

So for example, if a mage is on his way to throw a spell you can either:
A) Do nothing and just stand idly by while the time limit runs out, and the mage unleashes his spell.
B)Throw the killer knife to end the fight immediately.
C) ask a warrior companion to rush in and bash him, but will result in the mage dodging him, so that he instead runs into an old door that unleashes all manners of creatures, that you now have to fight instead and turns out to be much tougher than fighting the mage (unless your warrior companion clears a dexterity check or something like that).
D) Persuade him to stop, which might also succeed or fail depending on how good you are at it. If you manage to persuade him, he will help you continue fighting for the rest of the dungeon until he is dead.

Basically it would be just like any conversation with different dialogue options, but with a timelimit.

Modifié par Amycus89, 07 août 2012 - 06:52 .

[Windninja47]

While interrupts would be good, I would prefer if they thought of a way to do it that is noticeably different than the way Mass Effect did it. For no other reason than I don't want the game to feel like mass effect with dragons.

[CELL55]

Amycus89 wrote...

I'm not really opposed to interrupts, but please keep your mass effect out of my dragon age. If you are going to add interrupts, add it in a way that still makes it feel like it isn't only reaction based. For example, instead of having either a paragon or renegade option, let us have several options at once with a visible timelimit, and where even not choosing and just standing there is an option. And, most important of all, have it so that only one or two choices lead to a good outcome, while the others either makes it worse, or no difference at all. That way it still requires us to think.

So for example, if a mage is on his way to throw a spell you can either:
A) Do nothing and just stand idly by while the time limit runs out, and the mage unleashes his spell.
B)Throw the killer knife to end the fight immediately.
C) ask a warrior companion to rush in and bash him, but will result in the mage dodging him, so that he instead runs into an old door that unleashes all manners of creatures, that you now have to fight instead and turns out to be much tougher than fighting the mage (unless your warrior companion clears a dexterity check or something like that).
D) Persuade him to stop, which might also succeed or fail depending on how good you are at it. If you manage to persuade him, he will help you continue fighting for the rest of the dungeon until he is dead.

Basically it would be just like any conversation with different dialogue options, but with a timelimit.

That sounds like a lot more work than I think Bioware would be willing to put into the game in multiple instances. Remember, Greater complexity= Greater Cost. And if most people are only going to see one of those options in a playthrough, than those other options are effectively wasted money.

Is there any particular reason you don't like the interrupt system because it's from Mass Effct? I don't see why, I think it's a good system, and that matters more to me than the source. Dismissing the entire system because you do not like the game from which it is from does not strike me as wise, IMHO.

[Amycus89]

CELL55 wrote...

Amycus89 wrote...

I'm not really opposed to interrupts, but please keep your mass effect out of my dragon age. If you are going to add interrupts, add it in a way that still makes it feel like it isn't only reaction based. For example, instead of having either a paragon or renegade option, let us have several options at once with a visible timelimit, and where even not choosing and just standing there is an option. And, most important of all, have it so that only one or two choices lead to a good outcome, while the others either makes it worse, or no difference at all. That way it still requires us to think.

So for example, if a mage is on his way to throw a spell you can either:
A) Do nothing and just stand idly by while the time limit runs out, and the mage unleashes his spell.
B)Throw the killer knife to end the fight immediately.
C) ask a warrior companion to rush in and bash him, but will result in the mage dodging him, so that he instead runs into an old door that unleashes all manners of creatures, that you now have to fight instead and turns out to be much tougher than fighting the mage (unless your warrior companion clears a dexterity check or something like that).
D) Persuade him to stop, which might also succeed or fail depending on how good you are at it. If you manage to persuade him, he will help you continue fighting for the rest of the dungeon until he is dead.

Basically it would be just like any conversation with different dialogue options, but with a timelimit.

That sounds like a lot more work than I think Bioware would be willing to put into the game in multiple instances. Remember, Greater complexity= Greater Cost. And if most people are only going to see one of those options in a playthrough, than those other options are effectively wasted money.

Is there any particular reason you don't like the interrupt system because it's from Mass Effct? I don't see why, I think it's a good system, and that matters more to me than the source. Dismissing the entire system because you do not like the game from which it is from does not strike me as wise, IMHO.

Like I said, they wouldn't be any different than most other conversations, other than an added timelimit in certain instances. And there are games like Alpha protocol, or the walking dead where EVERY dialogue option is more or less like this, with timelimit everywhere.

As for people not liking it because its in mass effect is because many changes that were made in DA2 (and were unliked) were directly inspired from ME (the paragon, renegade sarcastic options, the dialogue wheel, and "awesome buttons" with more linear gameplay). Even without interrupts, DA2 still felt like ME with dragons. And nothing bad against ME, I like those games, but I like more traditional RPGs like DA:O as well. If I wanted ME, I would play ME. When I play dragon age, I expect a dragon age game. How would you react if someone suggested DA:O's combat to the mass effect series?

But like I said, I'm not really against interrupts, but I do think that they, if added, should require a bit thinking, instead of just being dependant on your reaction time.

Modifié par Amycus89, 07 août 2012 - 09:26 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

In principle, I love the idea of interrupts. Giving the player more control over how his character behaves is wonderful.

As implemented in ME2, interrupts were horrible. There was no way to know what was going to happen as a result of selecting the interrupts, and there was a time limit.

What the interrupts should be is an opprtunity for the player to pause the scene to consider possible actions, and then if none of those actions are satisfactory, to unpause the scene and continue as before.

The game should never cause the PC to act in a way that is unpredictable to the player.

[Amycus89]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

In principle, I love the idea of interrupts. Giving the player more control over how his character behaves is wonderful.

As implemented in ME2, interrupts were horrible. There was no way to know what was going to happen as a result of selecting the interrupts, and there was a time limit.

What the interrupts should be is an opprtunity for the player to pause the scene to consider possible actions, and then if none of those actions are satisfactory, to unpause the scene and continue as before.

The game should never cause the PC to act in a way that is unpredictable to the player.

For som reason I managed to forget this, but just being able to pause a cutscene is a sorely missed feature, with or without interruptions - not to mention that it would be an interesting take to simply pause instead of having a time limit.

...And I do agree that the players should always know what he is actually going to do, without being surprised from his own character suddenly doing something completely different from what he had in mind. Ok, Sylvius, I prefer your suggestion over mine.:happy:

[The Edge]

I'm all for more organic conversations, but I'm not sure if a ME-style interrupt system would do the job.

ME is set with a Paragon/Renegade universe, and dialogue is pretty much color coded. To add interrupts in the same way wouldn't do much, because if it is readily available and is easily identifiable as paragon/renegade. It makes conversation a railroad of choosing the blue or red icon. Basically, why would you choose anything else?

At it's core, the interrupt is just another dialogue path; in my opinion, the dialogue options should be sterile. By that I mean it should have no color coding and should only express what the character is saying (and not the good/bad consequences of the choice).

[The Edge]

Cstaf wrote...

I think Mass effect should be Mass effect, and Dragon age be Dragon age. Better way to make the dialogue more dynamic is to actually let the PC have more dialogue options and more frequent.

Agreed. To merge the series' ideas and such would make each less unique, IMO.

[deuce985]

Cstaf wrote...

I think Mass effect should be Mass effect, and Dragon age be Dragon age. Better way to make the dialogue more dynamic is to actually let the PC have more dialogue options and more frequent.

This.

Slightly off-topic but I would be all for DA companions being more involved in conversations. This means them jumping into a conversation more and showing whether they actually agree or not.

I wouldn't mind seeing a slider built on friendship/rivalry where it played into conversations too. This means if you have high rivalry and a plyer doesn't agree with something in a conversation/situation, she/he can go against you completely. Wheras if she/he has high friendship rating, you can easily talk she/he down in the situation that arises.

But yes, I feel some characters are definitely too "passive" conversations. They have personalities, why aren't they reflected more? And they're surely going to lock heads with you on more than one moral issue they don't agree with.

I like how Walking Dead has some very random interrupts that come out of nowhere.

Modifié par deuce985, 07 août 2012 - 09:54 .

[CELL55]

So if we made it so that we knew what the interrupt would do before we pressed it, gave us time to contemplate it, and removed it from the mechanics of Mass Effect just because, then it would be a worthwhile feature? Is that the general consensus?

As far as knowing what the interrupt will do ahead of time, I would argue that we know as much about the interrupt as we do about the paraphrases on the the dialog wheel. Paragon Interrupt is usually a hug or some nice thing, Renegade is usually an aggressive action or an attack. So perhaps the solution is to make the dialog wheel more expressive before we go tinkering with interrupts.

I still think that just because it was in Mass Effect is no good reason as to why it should not be in Dragon Age. If it's a good idea, implement it. If there was a hypothetical good feature to Superman 64, commonly rated as one of the worst games ever, I wouldn't be opposed to seeing that feature in another game if it was well implemented. And if one Bioware studio comes up with something good, why wouldn't they share it with their sister studios? There's nothing inherently sci-fi about the interrupt system, it's simply just another tool that the player can use to roleplay their character, be that in a sci-fi or fantasy setting.

[Nomen Mendax]

CELL55 wrote...

So if we made it so that we knew what the interrupt would do before we pressed it, gave us time to contemplate it, and removed it from the mechanics of Mass Effect just because, then it would be a worthwhile feature? Is that the general consensus?

As far as knowing what the interrupt will do ahead of time, I would argue that we know as much about the interrupt as we do about the paraphrases on the the dialog wheel. Paragon Interrupt is usually a hug or some nice thing, Renegade is usually an aggressive action or an attack. So perhaps the solution is to make the dialog wheel more expressive before we go tinkering with interrupts.

I still think that just because it was in Mass Effect is no good reason as to why it should not be in Dragon Age. If it's a good idea, implement it. If there was a hypothetical good feature to Superman 64, commonly rated as one of the worst games ever, I wouldn't be opposed to seeing that feature in another game if it was well implemented. And if one Bioware studio comes up with something good, why wouldn't they share it with their sister studios? There's nothing inherently sci-fi about the interrupt system, it's simply just another tool that the player can use to roleplay their character, be that in a sci-fi or fantasy setting.

I'm not a big fan of interrupts precisely because you don't know what your character is going to do.  ME has trained me to accept it because its really designed more as an interactive movie than a role-playing game, and I don't want DA to move in the same direction.

I agree with your arguments about paraphrases - but I don't like them either!

However, I don't have a problem with interrupting dialogue as long as I know what my character is actually doing to do, but this could be done as an option on the dialogue wheel rather than a flashing icon on the screen.

[Amycus89]

CELL55 wrote...

As far as knowing what the interrupt will do ahead of time, I would argue that we know as much about the interrupt as we do about the paraphrases on the the dialog wheel. 

Yeah, but the problem is that people in general here (me included) doesn't like paraphrases either, or at least how it was handled in DA2:P 

Usually the dialogue system in Deus Ex is mentioned as a good example of how paraphrase should be handled if they are to be used at all, where you get a summary of the first few lines your character is going to say when you hoover over each alternative. Persoanlly I prefer the old DA:O system with a silent protgonist, but I can live with a voiced one as long as I don't have to be surprised by what my own character does.

I think the main problem we have with the interrupts is, they are reaction based (and ONLY reaction based), and as someone else said earlier, it feels like you have to push them as soon as you see them, with no real thought pondering about whether you should really take that specific action specified or not. As long as an "interrupt opportunity" presents itself and invites reason for thought (should I press it or not? - and not just because of it's colour), I will be all for it.

I would admittingly have appreciated an interrupt button once those %&@# templars came to take my sister to the circle, and Hawke was just standing there like a retard.

Modifié par Amycus89, 07 août 2012 - 11:25 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

CELL55 wrote...

As far as knowing what the interrupt will do ahead of time, I would argue that we know as much about the interrupt as we do about the paraphrases on the the dialog wheel.

I would agree.

Both the interrupts and the paraphrases fail horribly.

[FieryDove]

Bah just bring everything over from ME and get it done with.

Everyone will need to go range and drop all melee from game but heh we can have 50% of our skills as types of ammo! A winning strategy everyone will love.

[Realmzmaster]

The problem with interrupts is that they are always reaction-based and do not allow for thought. While that may be realistic to an extent in my opinion it is not fun. I understand the purpose of the interrupt in theory. The problem is in practice.

There are times in DA2 where Hawke acting and not being passive would have worked like saving Thrask or Nyssa. Bethany being taken away to the Circle was not one of them, because it is a good possibility that either Hawke's mother or Gamelen could be killed or hurt in the process. That is why Bethany ask Hawke to effectively Stand Down and do nothing. What happens if Hawke kills the Templars, but his mother or Bethany is killed in the process? (Gamelan may not be that big of a deal to some).

Modifié par Realmzmaster, 08 août 2012 - 02:04 .