332 réponses à ce sujet

[zyntifox]

For the last 10-12 years the gaming industry, in my opinion, have been quite liberal in what is considered a RPG. I have always considered that RPGs are games where the game and player together creates a story. But for the last decade there seems to have been a shift thoward telling this story by through cinematic at the cost of player input. Now, i do not hate or love this shift because i like both types of games but for very different reasons. But i do play these types of games very different.

The question i have that i think would be interesting hearing from you guys is:
At what point does a RPG turn into another genre? That is, what are the fundamental requirement you have for a game to be considered an RPG. I've bolded the "you" for a reason because i do consider this to be something subjective.

[Realmzmaster]

You have hit upon the problem with the you. The definition of what constitutes an RPG is different depending on who you talk with.

I harken back to some old school crpgs in that I like weather effects to have a bearing on what a party member can wear. If it is 105 degrees Fahrenheit in the shade then the party should dress for the weather. I want to see food and water requirements. Weight requirements that determine how much a party member can carry (no magical holding bags unless it is a prize after undertaking a dangerous quest).

Weapons and armor that break and require repair. The ability to craft potions, weapons and armor by gathering the right materials and using either a crafting bench (if the necessary skill is obtained) or paying someone to go it.
Attributes that do not change unless under certain special conditions. Non-regenerating health and mana. Perma-death with no means of resurrection unless you raise the corpse as a zombie. The party has to recruit a new member who comes in one level below the other party members or roll up a new party member (if the gamer gets to create the entire party) who starts at level one.
The gamer still retains the right to load from a previous save (if they so choose).

I want quests where the PC has to make a choice which party member takes one for the team. Like in DA2 were one of the siblings will die. I would have like to seen each sibling in a dire situation with the PC only able to save one. Or you have two potential love interests say Morrigan and Lelianna and only one can be saved. Choices that matter not just on a global world saving level, but on a personal level.

The ability to refuse a quest and the consequence of that refusal comes back to bite you. Or as in Magistrate Orders you defy the magistrate and kill the criminal. There should be ramifications for such an act.
I want party members that have their own agendas and are willing to backstab the PC and the party.

I want party members to train to rise in level not just because you have the necessary experience. Obtaining high levels should require taking on a dangerous quest for the trainer before receiving the training to show you are worthy.

Either turn-based or reatime with pause combat is fine. Silent or voiced protagonist. I prefer voiced but can accept silent but prefer that everyone is silent.

Prefer a classless system where I can mold each party member as I wish. If there must be class I want the ability to create a specialization.
I do not care if the PC has a predefined backstory or I get to provide it as long as it is coherent and fits the story being told.

Just a few of the things I want off the top of my head.

[SteveGarbage]

That's tricky, because while I grew up on JRPGs, now I'm more into western RPGs, both of which take a very different approach to things. For me, the term RPG is more of a mechanical definition than it is of story or characters or whatnot. I expect all RPGs to give an engaging story with memorable characters, whether I have control over those experiences or not. I enjoy the story of DA:O which I can control as much as I like the story in many of the Final Fantasy games (X and earlier, really) that I have no control over.

And that's especially true since RPGs nowadays have multiple sub-categories: CRPG, JRPG, Action RPG, Tactics RPG, MMORPG and just about every game under the sun including boring FPS games and stupid Facebook games now incorporate "RPG elements" into their design.

For me, in broad terms:
-An RPG must have a good story and memorable characters.
-An RPG must have some form of an experience/leveling mechanic and character stats/skills
-An RPG must have some sort of inventory system that I can manipulate, with items that can alter my character's stats/skills.

That covers a lot of ground. Obviously there are degrees too. I prefer more complicated statistical interactions and inventories. I prefer having control over my character development and, to some degree, the story. I don't care for real-time action battle systems (like Kingdom Hearts) or MMOs so much. For me, a good RPG system is one where I have to rely on my build and my planing and strategy to succeed moreso than can I execute a dodge at the right moment to avoid the boss's Mega Death Beam of Ultimate Destruction.

But unlike some people, I'm not so stuck on how the story is delivered as long as it is interesting when it is delivered. Whether I have a lot of input in it or non at all is less important than it being good. I'd much rather play an RPG where I went from point to point and was delivered the story of A Song of Ice and Fire or Lord of the Rings, than play a game where I had a silent protagonist and choices is than have a lot of control over a story that was lame like Twilight.

Modifié par SteveGarbage, 07 août 2012 - 06:32 .

[Arthur Cousland]

Rpg=role playing game. When I feel that my character isn't my own, that there is minimal input on how to play and build my character, and I'm simply moving my character from point A to point B, then the game feels more like an action game with a story, rather than an actual rpg.

I want to have a connection with my character, to feel that they are me, in a fantasy world and that I can experience the game through them, whether they're human, elf, dwarf, etc. I don't want the game to tell me who my character is and provide tons of backstory, and have little input in dialogue. Ideally, I feel like I'm controlling my character, like in the movie Avatar, and my character and I are one, going on an adventure together.

Ideal roleplaying games for me are ones like Skyrim or any of the Elder Scrolls games, and to a lesser extent, DA: Origins. I prefer to feel like I am the hero of the story and not just watching a movie or turning the pages of a book.

Modifié par Arthur Cousland, 07 août 2012 - 06:35 .

[zyntifox]

Realmzmaster wrote...

You have hit upon the problem with the you. The definition of what constitutes an RPG is different depending on who you talk with.

I harken back to some old school crpgs in that I like weather effects to have a bearing on what a party member can wear. If it is 105 degrees Fahrenheit in the shade then the party should dress for the weather. I want to see food and water requirements. Weight requirements that determine how much a party member can carry (no magical holding bags unless it is a prize after undertaking a dangerous quest).

Weapons and armor that break and require repair. The ability to craft potions, weapons and armor by gathering the right materials and using either a crafting bench (if the necessary skill is obtained) or paying someone to go it.
Attributes that do not change unless under certain special conditions. Non-regenerating health and mana. Perma-death with no means of resurrection unless you raise the corpse as a zombie. The party has to recruit a new member who comes in one level below the other party members or roll up a new party member (if the gamer gets to create the entire party) who starts at level one.
The gamer still retains the right to load from a previous save (if they so choose).

I want quests where the PC has to make a choice which party member takes one for the team. Like in DA2 were one of the siblings will die. I would have like to seen each sibling in a dire situation with the PC only able to save one. Or you have two potential love interests say Morrigan and Lelianna and only one can be saved. Choices that matter not just on a global world saving level, but on a personal level.

The ability to refuse a quest and the consequence of that refusal comes back to bite you. Or as in Magistrate Orders you defy the magistrate and kill the criminal. There should be ramifications for such an act.
I want party members that have their own agendas and are willing to backstab the PC and the party.

I want party members to train to rise in level not just because you have the necessary experience. Obtaining high levels should require taking on a dangerous quest for the trainer before receiving the training to show you are worthy.

Either turn-based or reatime with pause combat is fine. Silent or voiced protagonist. I prefer voiced but can accept silent but prefer that everyone is silent.

Prefer a classless system where I can mold each party member as I wish. If there must be class I want the ability to create a specialization.
I do not care if the PC has a predefined backstory or I get to provide it as long as it is coherent and fits the story being told.

Just a few of the things I want off the top of my head.

Not sure you answered the question i asked however. That looks like a wish-list for a RPG which is a entirely different thing. Otherwise that is a very specific list of requirements for a game to be considered RPG [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/smile.png[/smilie].
And i can't think of a game that covers all that, especially the second paragraph (but i would love a game with that function though).

[SteveGarbage]

Arthur Cousland wrote...
I want to have a connection with my character, to feel that they are me, in a fantasy world and that I can experience the game through them, whether they're human, elf, dwarf, etc. I don't want the game to tell me who my character is and provide tons of backstory, and have little input in dialogue.

See that's something I disagree with. The character doesn't have to be my representation of me and my morals or some character mold I have in mind for it to be enriching.

I was way more drawn into the story, world and plot of a good JRPG like Final Fantasy X than I was of a more interactive and customizable one that kind of missed the mark storywise like Skyrim. I was pulled into Skyrim by the environment moreso than I was the main plots, missions or characters.

I can relate and tag along to pre-defined characters without being directly involved in the story is good. But when something like DA2 comes along where they're trying to define Hawke and his story while also letting me do what I want, it got muddied and awkward. Combined with an average plot to back it up, meh, it's somewhat of a miss. I can't control a thing about the characters in Final Fantasy except their equipment, but that still can be a better game than a more interactive western RPG.

But, as I said in my previous post, I grew up on the JRPG. I'm not exclusively loyal to the idea of what the ideal CRPG or western RPG has to be and whether that should be less restrictive. But considering this topic is so vague in scope, that's what I've got.

Now the discussion of what constitutes a really good CRPG is a different story...

[schalafi]

SteveGarbage wrote...

Arthur Cousland wrote...
I want to have a connection with my character, to feel that they are me, in a fantasy world and that I can experience the game through them, whether they're human, elf, dwarf, etc. I don't want the game to tell me who my character is and provide tons of backstory, and have little input in dialogue.

See that's something I disagree with. The character doesn't have to be my representation of me and my morals or some character mold I have in mind for it to be enriching.

I was way more drawn into the story, world and plot of a good JRPG like Final Fantasy X than I was of a more interactive and customizable one that kind of missed the mark storywise like Skyrim. I was pulled into Skyrim by the environment moreso than I was the main plots, missions or characters.

I can relate and tag along to pre-defined characters without being directly involved in the story is good. But when something like DA2 comes along where they're trying to define Hawke and his story while also letting me do what I want, it got muddied and awkward. Combined with an average plot to back it up, meh, it's somewhat of a miss. I can't control a thing about the characters in Final Fantasy except their equipment, but that still can be a better game than a more interactive western RPG.

But, as I said in my previous post, I grew up on the JRPG. I'm not exclusively loyal to the idea of what the ideal CRPG or western RPG has to be and whether that should be less restrictive. But considering this topic is so vague in scope, that's what I've got.

Now the discussion of what constitutes a really good CRPG is a different story...

Why don't you start a topic on that... I think it would be really interesting, because I'm sure everyone has their own definition of what would make a great crpg.

[zyntifox]

Never really liked Final fantasy or other JRPG. Well for me the criterion for a game being called RPG is that the character i am roleplaying isn't talking or acting without player input. I can give some exception to cinematic cutscene but the less the better. Skyrim is a good example of a RPG, even though it is not a game i like, that i believe fills my criterion. DA:O i am unsure about, don't think the warden did anything gamebreaking in the cutscenes.

Edit: Oh one more thing. Paraphrasing the dialogue responses makes roleplaying for me impossible so having that makes it a interactive game for me.

Modifié par Cstaf, 07 août 2012 - 07:04 .

[Sylvanpyxie]

A Role-Playing Game, to me, is a game in which I can manipulate the personality of the Protagonist.

If I cannot influence the choices, beliefs, responses and opinions of the Player Character, then it's not an RPG.

That's my opinion, as simple as it gets.

[InfinitePaths]

Have you ever tried The Witcher games,guys?I consider that a true RPG

[schalafi]

HeriocGreyWarden wrote...

Have you ever tried The Witcher games,guys?I consider that a true RPG

I can't agree with that. If you can't choose your protagonist's sex, looks, name, and fighting skills, as well as other characteristics, it's not a true RPG, imo.

Modifié par schalafi, 07 août 2012 - 07:09 .

[zyntifox]

HeriocGreyWarden wrote...

Have you ever tried The Witcher games,guys?I consider that a true RPG

Never tried it. What elements in that game makes it a RPG for you?

[zyntifox]

schalafi wrote...

HeriocGreyWarden wrote...

Have you ever tried The Witcher games,guys?I consider that a true RPG

I can't agree with that. If you can't choose your protagonist's sex, looks, name, and fighting skills, as well as other characteristics, it's not a true RPG, imo.

I disagree with your disagreement! 
Atleast sex, looks, name and fightning skills. I would argue that a RPG can have a fixed or not fixed protagonist, though i prefer not, what matters is the degree of control once you play, no? (By the way, i channeled Leliana with that last "no" so when you read the sentence read it in a suggestive french accent!)

[SteveGarbage]

HeriocGreyWarden wrote...

Have you ever tried The Witcher games,guys?I consider that a true RPG

Yeah, I played about 10 hours then quit. Didn't care for the early story, didn't care for the battle mechanics at all, definitely didn't like its grossly clunky menus and was as well turned off by the mostly lousy presentation of the game.

I've heard that it's one of the staples of the modern CRPG genre, but the mechanics of my first attempt to play it soured me to the whole thing.

[Giltspur]

For me an RPG must

(1) Try to have a good story
(2) Have gameplay that challenges the mind more than the reflexes
(3) Allow you to save your progress

An RPG has a good story if
(1a) it has a characters I want to get to know and that are memorable.
(1b) it presents presents me with choices that allow me to individuate my character and thus have a feeling of ownership over that character.

Regarding (2), old RPG's that were turn-based battles of parties against a limited number of enemies like Ultima and Final Fantasy are obvious examples of games that challenge the mind more than reflexes.  But a game that challenges the reflexes like Mass Effect 2 can still "feel" like an RPG despite having shooter mechanics.  For me what made ME2 feel like an RPG was having to make kill-order decisions based a combination of shield/barrier/armor, party abilities, party composition, enemy abilities, cover and position.  The latter three can contribute to the decision-making in any shooter.  But the first three (shield/barrier/armor/, party composition and party abilities) made it feel like the mental side was more important than whatever reflex tests were there.  So even though Mass Effect 2 is at least a shooter (given that you run around and shoot things), it, for me, was also an RPG.

(3) is fairly obvious.  Games like Final Fantasy and Phantasy Star were noteworthy in comparison to the more common platforming and side-scrolling shooter games of the same time period for featuring long stories that allowed you to save progress via a battery in the cartridge.  This abadoned the limited-lives model that arcade coin-op games used to get you to spend more money to continue or perhaps the other model that extends replayability by forcing mastery of limited content.

The OP mentions making a story with the writers as opposed to being told a story.  I do agree that I prefer games to take their inspiration from the collaborative enterprise between an author and a reader (as a reader does play an active part in interpreting the words of the author and imagining what's going on and filling in details that the author leaves to the reader to work out) in a novel more than whatever more limited collaboration takes place between an audience member and a filmmaker.  Being too much like a movie is too far a step toward passivity.   What I mean is, it's good if a game inpsires you to imagine things outside of the game as some of my best gaming memories were of games that I thought about and created extra stories for outside of the proper game.  For example, I gave additional context to DAO's ending.  I also imagined the sorts of "party banter" characters might have outside in between quests.  And beyond that I thought about differences between the way the Warden reacted to situations early in the game (sparing bandits) versus how he reacted later in the game (not sparing Loghain). I did that stuff somewhat in DA2 (for example further developing the motivation of Anders, imagining some conflict between Hawke and Carver as a result of various events) but less than in DAO.  Was that because of the more "cinematic" approach DA2 took or was it something else or is that just a candidate explanation that one can grasp onto and run with?  I'm not sure.

Modifié par Giltspur, 07 août 2012 - 08:35 .

[Pzykozis]

Pretty much if anyone thinks a game is an RPG realistically then its likely what I'd consider an RPG, its not particularly a genre unlike other genres in that it has no real inherent mechanical or systemtic demands or atleast very few and very vague ones.

general vague notions of RPG i guess would be something like... some notion of an actual story driving the game although this isn't an inherent need as seen by stuff like Skyrim. Characters though this doesnt really work with the old dungeon crawler games.. and well in general the only consistency about RPGs is that they're inconsistent.

I guess you could say the only real core pillar in RPGs is that they have some form of advancement, and that no longer differentiates them from the wider selection of games due to this incorporation into pretty much all genres.

[Maria Caliban]

Cstaf wrote...

At what point does a RPG turn into another genre?

When marketing says it does.

Fans have this idea that 'genre' is an objective concept, but that's not correct. Modern genres are a product of publishers and store managers that are designed to group together items for a customer. They answer the question 'What shelf should I put this on?' and nothing more.

People who liked the Witcher might like Dues Ex: Human Revolution and might like Fallout: New Vegas because they share some aspects that those customers enjoy.

Academia tends to have their own 'genres' but they're more specialized that what you'll find in any store. Postcolonial literature is a genre, but not one you'll find on the shelf of a Waterstones.

[wsandista]

I think bEVEsthda put up some links to videos that explained the difference between WRPGs and JRPGs in another thread. Those might help answer your question. I'd link you to them, but I'm too lazy.

[Sylvius the Mad]

SteveGarbage wrote...

Arthur Cousland wrote...

I want to have a connection with my character, to feel that they are me, in a fantasy world and that I can experience the game through them, whether they're human, elf, dwarf, etc. I don't want the game to tell me who my character is and provide tons of backstory, and have little input in dialogue.

See that's something I disagree with. The character doesn't have to be my representation of me and my morals or some character mold I have in mind for it to be enriching.

I was way more drawn into the story, world and plot of a good JRPG like Final Fantasy X than I was of a more interactive and customizable one that kind of missed the mark storywise like Skyrim. I was pulled into Skyrim by the environment moreso than I was the main plots, missions or characters.

You've just identified the core difference between JRPGs and western RPGs.  Western RPGs allow the player to tell the story through his own character, while JRPGs tell the story through a character the game provides fully formed.

I don't play JRPGs.  I've never liked them.  The thing that makes roleplaying games something I enjoy - the abiltiy to craft a character and then let him lose to see what he does - is something JRPGs have never offered, so I've never viewed JRPGs as being roleplaying games at all.  I have as much influence over the events within a JRPG as I do within Half-Life or Metal Gear Solid.

Honestly, the genre that I think most closely resembles western RPGs isn't JRPGs - it's turn-based strategy games.  Civilization is more of a roleplaying game than Final Fantasy is.

[Realmzmaster]

Cstaf wrote...

Not sure you answered the question i asked however. That looks like a wish-list for a RPG which is a entirely different thing. Otherwise that is a very specific list of requirements for a game to be considered RPG [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/smile.png[/smilie].
And i can't think of a game that covers all that, especially the second paragraph (but i would love a game with that function though).

I stopped trying to answer what is an rpg to me. I simply define what I would like to see in an rpg. If a game has most of what I am looking for (my wish list)  then it fits my definition of an rpg.

As you can see by the definitions provided by each poster here that the definition can be all over the map. Therefore I list what appeals to me in an rpg rather than trying to define it and place it into pigeon holes of WRPG, JRPG etc.

Modifié par Realmzmaster, 07 août 2012 - 09:49 .

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Cstaf wrote...

At what point does a RPG turn into another genre?

When marketing says it does.

Fans have this idea that 'genre' is an objective concept, but that's not correct. Modern genres are a product of publishers and store managers that are designed to group together items for a customer. They answer the question 'What shelf should I put this on?' and nothing more.

The sky must be falling, I'm in agreement with Maria.

[Eternal Phoenix]

Traditional RPG's = Baldur's Gate series, Planescape, Fallout 1&2.
Modern Traditional RPG's = Dragon Age: Origins
Action RPG's = Dark Souls, Divine Divinity, Divinity 2, Deus Ex series, The Witcher, Mass Effect series.
Loot RPG's = Diablo series, Torchlight series, Borderlands series

Sometimes each sub-genre will contain elements from another sub-genre. Dark Souls for example has a huge emphasis on statistics and and feels old-school. There's a learning curve and wondering into the high-leveled areas will lead to your death. There's curses and permanent consequences such as where killing people will lead to their death for the rest of playthrough. The Witcher on the other-hand also has an emphasis on skills you choose but is more concerned with dialogue and choices you make which lead to consequences and greatly impact the story. Quests are handled in an old-school way where there's no quest markers (from what I can recall). There's also potions and things you can make which enhance your statistics which is basically temporary buffing and needed as a strategy for later difficulties.

Then there's Divine Divinity which is a combination of an action-RPG and traditional RPG because there were choices to make, heavy dialogue, a dialogue tree, importance of statistics and consequences but the combat was more action-orientated and at times there was a lot of it whereas at others times you would be going about and talking to people and making choices.

I called DA:O a modern traditional RPG because it's a combination of old-school RPG's with some features from recent RPG's such as quest markers and more limitation but the whole features of a party, party customization, statistic based combat and a dialogue tree remains.

Diablo and the like are loot RPG's (or action-loot-RPG's or hack n slash RPG's) with the main aim of building your character up with better equipment and increasing their skills, levels and statistics but it's not a traditional RPG in any way or form because it lacks a dialogue tree, has no choices, there's no character development in terms of personality or what cause you side with and so on.

So you have the RPG genre with several sub-genres.

[Barry Bathernak]

what is an rpg (imo) would be wow,kotor 1-2, ORIGINS, fo3, fo:new vegas, oblivian, skyrim, paper and pen games, those custom maps/modes in sc2 which is like a pnp only more group choice over all and less gm saying "i am your god now!!!",deus ex hr+original, and some jrpgs. what isn't (imo) are games like d.a.2, m.e.2-3, swtor, and other bioware games that came out after ORIGINS, plus some jrpgs. This is all because of things i feel,see, and do in the game.

[MagmaSaiyan]

what i dont consider a rpg, if it doesnt involve some sort of leveling system, equipment that effects attributes, more or less actually adding attributes, item management(varies), and party management. im probably missing some but i guess what i have down affects alot of RPGs