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The RPG genre

Débuté par zyntifox , août 07 2012 04:26

332 réponses à ce sujet

#76
Guest_EntropicAngel_*
Posté 10 août 2012 - 04:23

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Sylvius the Mad wrote...

That's by design.  Characters you are controlling don't do anything without your input.   And that's a good thing - that's the only way to prevent characters from entering combat when you don't want them to do so.  I often select 2 or 3 characters at a time to keep them out of trouble.

The only game I know that had all of the characters act on their own without player input was the original Dungeon Siege, and while I really enjoyed it its combat system was widely derided.

But the Dragon Age games would actually work in the same way, the way you expected, if you could deselect all of the characters.  And the devs even had the means to do that during testing, but they didn't include that feature in the finished game.


I actually downloaded a mod for DA:O that allows this. I like it a lot--it's very neat to be able to sit back and let the tactics do all of the work. Perhaps I was just used to that, I don't know.

#77
Alexander1136
Posté 10 août 2012 - 06:45

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schalafi wrote...

HeriocGreyWarden wrote...

Have you ever tried The Witcher games,guys?I consider that a true RPG


I can't agree with that. If you can't choose your protagonist's sex, looks, name, and fighting skills, as well as other characteristics, it's not a true RPG, imo.


In my opinion you take on the role of the main character in the Witcher games and you get to chose his over all character. Your choices turn the tide of the game quite a bit. You have to gather items for potions and there is "skill trees" of a sort. I feel the witcher is a very good example of an RPG. The create a character RPG games are a lot of fun when the create a character system has a large deversity of option that actual effect gameplay and arn't just asthetic. for example you get treated differently for being a different race, sex. or have different origins. To me the heart of a good RPG is the ability to define your own character, playstyle and actually go through the story with it.  So for origins my character was a smart ass, he was smart and cautious so the DR ending suited him rather well. I was pleased with it.  

#78
Sylvius the Mad
Posté 10 août 2012 - 06:57

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EntropicAngel wrote...

I actually downloaded a mod for DA:O that allows this.

Do you have a link, or is it on Nexus?  I would love to try this.

I specifically asked for this feature in the game (partly because I knew the devs already had it, so including it should have been pretty easy) but they said my request came too late to modify any UI elements to include it.  So then I asked for it in DA2 before DA2 was even in development, but they didn't include it there, either.

#79
Guest_EntropicAngel_*
Posté 10 août 2012 - 07:05

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http://dragonage.nex...s.com/mods/181/

It is part of a series of "advanced" mods, including one that allows you to have about six times as many quickbars, but I didn't care for it because switching between them is like using a power--you can't do it paused. I found another mod that works wonderfully for the same purpose (an increased quickbar).

Modifié par EntropicAngel, 10 août 2012 - 07:09 .

#80
Allan Schumacher
Posté 10 août 2012 - 08:02

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My "prereq" it seems for an RPG is a game that focuses on the following:

- A story of appropriate scope (probably at least 20+ hours. Willing to go less if replayability is divergent and interesting)
- Some level of player agency (the more the better IMO, and am willing to concede length)
- Some form of character progression. The most obvious is some sort of XP system, but other forms work for me.
- Interesting character interactions (party is not required, but typically greatly adds to interesting interactions. I'm looking at you Planescape: Torment!)

#81
Rawgrim
Posté 10 août 2012 - 09:50

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I agree with Schumacher on this. But I would also like to add the ability to equip partymembers and whatsnot. And tactics and strategies when it comes to fights in the game, as well.

#82
bloodmage13
Posté 10 août 2012 - 01:56

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I personally think that Fallout new Vegas and DAO both are great examples of what RPGs should be. They both have long and engaging stories. They also allow the player to make important choices that affect the ending. They both also allow lots of customization. I get to decide what gear my character and my companions wear

#83
Rawgrim
Posté 10 août 2012 - 02:25

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DA:O was a damn good rpg, I agree. Pretty close to an old-school rpg too, actually.

#84
zyntifox
Posté 10 août 2012 - 03:07

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Rawgrim wrote...

DA:O was a damn good rpg, I agree. Pretty close to an old-school rpg too, actually.


I thought DA:O did manage the balance of RP and cinematic very well. It did add a lot of more cinematic feel than the old-school RPGs but the cost in terms of roleplayability was minimal, if any. This is something, in my opinion, they did not manage well in DA2.

#85
Cultist
Posté 10 août 2012 - 03:16

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RPG for me is the ability to make choices. Both good and evil, to be able to side with enemies and switch sides, make impact on the story.

#86
Sylvius the Mad
Posté 10 août 2012 - 06:28

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Allan Schumacher wrote...

- Some level of player agency (the more the better IMO, and am willing to concede length)

I think "player agency" is an imprecise term.  I'm a big fan of player agency, but when I talk about it I'm referring to the level of influence the player has over his own character.

Others use player agency to refer to the agency the character has within the story, but I don't think that has anything to do with the player - it has to do with how linear the story isn't.

#87
Allan Schumacher
Posté 10 août 2012 - 08:08

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By player agency I mean the ability to influence the story and to have the game respond to the actions I make in the game.

Ideally, I prefer mutually exclusive choices in the narrative.

#88
Guest_EntropicAngel_*
Posté 10 août 2012 - 08:40

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Allan Schumacher wrote...

Ideally, I prefer mutually exclusive choices in the narrative.


I feel the same, as I outlined in my initial post.

#89
Sylvius the Mad
Posté 10 août 2012 - 10:20

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Allan Schumacher wrote...

By player agency I mean the ability to influence the story and to have the game respond to the actions I make in the game.

Ideally, I prefer mutually exclusive choices in the narrative.

I would call that character agency.  The character is able to do things.  But if they're only things the game is pre-written to allow (as they would have to be in order to have the game react to them), then I don't see any opportunity for the player to be part of the creative process, and as such I would not classify that as player agency.

Player agency involves the player being able to decide things on his own and have the game accept those decisions (even if the game doesn't acknowledge them).  That's what BioWare has lost in all their post-DAO games, and that's what I want back.

#90
zyntifox
Posté 10 août 2012 - 10:35

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Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

By player agency I mean the ability to influence the story and to have the game respond to the actions I make in the game.

Ideally, I prefer mutually exclusive choices in the narrative.

I would call that character agency.  The character is able to do things.  But if they're only things the game is pre-written to allow (as they would have to be in order to have the game react to them), then I don't see any opportunity for the player to be part of the creative process, and as such I would not classify that as player agency.

Player agency involves the player being able to decide things on his own and have the game accept those decisions (even if the game doesn't acknowledge them).  That's what BioWare has lost in all their post-DAO games, and that's what I want back.


I agree, it is something i would want back as well.

#91
MichaelStuart
Posté 10 août 2012 - 11:09

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Cstaf wrote...

For the last 10-12 years the gaming industry, in my opinion, have been quite liberal in what is considered a RPG. I have always considered that RPGs are games where the game and player together creates a story. But for the last decade there seems to have been a shift thoward telling this story by through cinematic at the cost of player input. Now, i do not hate or love this shift because i like both types of games but for very different reasons. But i do play these types of games very different.

The question i have that i think would be interesting hearing from you guys is:
At what point does a RPG turn into another genre? That is, what are the fundamental requirement you have for a game to be considered an RPG. I've bolded the "you" for a reason because i do consider this to be something subjective.


To me, a RPG is a game that lets me play a role in a story. I also have to be able to affect the story and not just be moving along a scripted path.
As such, I belive that there are very few pure RPGs. Most RPGs get bundled with other genres.

Also, just to clear.
I do not consider Stats and dice rolling to be necessary parts to make a RPG.   

#92
Sylvius the Mad
Posté 10 août 2012 - 11:37

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MichaelStuart wrote...

Also, just to clear.
I do not consider Stats and dice rolling to be necessary parts to make a RPG.   

I don;'t think those things are necessary in and of themselves, but I think they're necessary to allow other necessary components (like in-character decision-making) to work.

#93
MichaelStuart
Posté 10 août 2012 - 11:57

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Sylvius the Mad wrote...

MichaelStuart wrote...

Also, just to clear.
I do not consider Stats and dice rolling to be necessary parts to make a RPG.   

I don;'t think those things are necessary in and of themselves, but I think they're necessary to allow other necessary components (like in-character decision-making) to work.


I don't really see how?
To make a in-character decision, I only need to see and hear what my character is experiencing.    

#94
Ianamus
Posté 11 août 2012 - 12:20

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Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

By player agency I mean the ability to influence the story and to have the game respond to the actions I make in the game.

Ideally, I prefer mutually exclusive choices in the narrative.

I would call that character agency.  The character is able to do things.  But if they're only things the game is pre-written to allow (as they would have to be in order to have the game react to them), then I don't see any opportunity for the player to be part of the creative process, and as such I would not classify that as player agency.

Player agency involves the player being able to decide things on his own and have the game accept those decisions (even if the game doesn't acknowledge them).  That's what BioWare has lost in all their post-DAO games, and that's what I want back.


But surely the only choices you are ever able to make are ones that the game is pre-written to allow, otherwise it would be a bug and would make the game unplayable/make no sense? 

DAO never let you do anything that was not pre-written, and nor has any game ever, outside of techical issues... because that statement doesn't really make any sense at all. 

I assume you mean games that allow to, for example, kill any particular NPC, but then arguably these actions and their reprecussions, if any, have already been thought out and written in by the development team otherwise you would not be able to kill them in the first place. 

Modifié par EJ107, 11 août 2012 - 12:24 .

#95
wowpwnslol
Posté 11 août 2012 - 12:37

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My ideal RPG:

1) Choices that actually matter and shape the world around you
2) Complicated and difficult gameplay that rewards skill, tactics and preparation, not mindless facerolling on keyboard and button smashing.
3) Well-developed and fleshed out companions that have unique personalities, quests and can actually attack or leave you based on your choices
4) Interesting main storyline that has a sense of urgency, but not so much as to stop you from exploring the world and do side quests
5) Interesting side quests, interesting NPC's - these do not have to add to the storylike, just make the world look alive. A mindless banter with a random drunk in a tavern that goes nowhere does a lot to bring life to the world. A side quest should not be always solved with a sword, introduce some complicated, skill-based dialogues, romance, political intrigue, etc.

#96
Withidread
Posté 11 août 2012 - 12:53

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Sylvius the Mad wrote...

You've just identified the core difference between JRPGs and western RPGs.  Western RPGs allow the player to tell the story through his own character, while JRPGs tell the story through a character the game provides fully formed.

I don't play JRPGs.  I've never liked them.  The thing that makes roleplaying games something I enjoy - the abiltiy to craft a character and then let him lose to see what he does - is something JRPGs have never offered, so I've never viewed JRPGs as being roleplaying games at all.  I have as much influence over the events within a JRPG as I do within Half-Life or Metal Gear Solid.

Honestly, the genre that I think most closely resembles western RPGs isn't JRPGs - it's turn-based strategy games.  Civilization is more of a roleplaying game than Final Fantasy is.


I agree. I'll occasionally play a jrpg, but for me to play it start to finish, it has to really pull me in and get me to identify with the character. Even then, it's more like playing a shooter with a storyline than it is roleplaying.

#97
Sylvius the Mad
Posté 11 août 2012 - 06:13

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MichaelStuart wrote...

I don't really see how?
To make a in-character decision, I only need to see and hear what my character is experiencing.

You also need to know what his undersatnding is of his own abilities, and how he understands the rules of the reality in which he lives.

If he's a lousy shot, he'll make gunplay-related decisions accordingly.  Whether you're a lousy shot should never matter, because you don't exist within his reality.

#98
Allan Schumacher
Posté 11 août 2012 - 07:44

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Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I would call that character agency.  The character is able to do things.  But if they're only things the game is pre-written to allow (as they would have to be in order to have the game react to them), then I don't see any opportunity for the player to be part of the creative process, and as such I would not classify that as player agency.

Player agency involves the player being able to decide things on his own and have the game accept those decisions (even if the game doesn't acknowledge them).  That's what BioWare has lost in all their post-DAO games, and that's what I want back.


They're mostly indistinguishable to me.

One of the presumably many differences between Sylvius the Mad and Allan Schumacher B)

#99
Emloch
Posté 11 août 2012 - 02:38

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Rawgrim wrote...

I am not sure if I would call The Witcher an rpg though. More like an actionadventure game with some rpg elements in it. You can`t create your own character, after all.

The last "proper" rpg I played was Drakensang (+the sequel). Anything after that has mostly been acion games in disguise,


Respectfully, I have to disagree. Although I agree chracter creation should be part of an RPG, I don't think it's criteria. There have been many RPG's is which you don't create the main character. Planescape:Torment is just one example. And whether you like them ot not, the Final Fantasy series is hard to deny being part of the RPG genre. There is no character creation there either.

Personally, I feel the the Witcher series is one of the last true RPG series out there. Yes, the combat is action based but that style of combat is a welcomed element. Games have evolved from a technological standpoint and I think the "point and click" combat sytem is a thing of the past. And I'm actually happy about that. The stories are great, NPC interaction is engrossing, the crafting is complex and the skill/ability system is a solid as they come.

#100
Guest_EntropicAngel_*
Posté 11 août 2012 - 03:33

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Emloch wrote...

I think the "point and click" combat sytem is a thing of the past.


What?

I would argue that point and click combat is, if not a staple, then darn nearly so for an RPG, for the sole reason of:

It separates the player from the character. Action-based combat like Skyrim, ME, or from what folks here are saying, The Witcher, is not based on what the character can do. It's based on what YOU, the player, can do. The RPG should be about the character, not the person playing it.

Action based combat also places certain...restrictions on the PC.


I've always loved being a sniper in games. First weapon I go for is the sniper rifle. This means that in ME, I go for the Infiltrator (designed around it). Unfortunately, I've never been any good at close-up combat. Shotguns, offensive biotic powers, etc. And because ME is solely action combat, my PC is restricted to classes that I, as a player, can play effectively.

I have played through the Mass Effect series many times. I happened upon Mass Effect 2 first, and I played about a weeks worth (168 hours ingame) within the first month or so after I got it. And guess what? Every one of those hours was as an Infiltrator. I've tried to play other classes, and I really do intend to one day, but I haven't been able to force myself.

My abilities as a player limit my character.

Contrast this to DA:O, where all you need is a basic understanding of each class, and (if you're planning on more tactical and challenging play) the complexities within them, the effects of powers, etc. None of this is dependent on the player's ability to do things fast. Anyone, from a child to an elderly person, could do this, not just someone with good reflexes.

Thus I would contend that action combat, as opposed to point-and-click, limits the expression of the character to ONLY things that the player can do.
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