1085 réponses à ce sujet

[Asebstos]

Here's how I imagine that initial conversation going:

Leviathans: Oh great and wise AI, how can we find a solution to this apparent eternal conflict between machine and creator?

Baby Catalyst: Give all organics machine parts

Leviathans: We don't want to become part machine, we just want to stop the machines from wanting to kill us.

Baby Catalyst: Become part machine or die!

Leviathans: /facepalm /extinct.

[BleedingUranium]

TSA_383 wrote...

AstusOz wrote...

In any case, I'm just curious why some of the writers haven't been active in the discussions. It's like the complete opposite of the DA team. I mean, the DA team didn't respond for the first month or so after the game was released but then started getting more and more involved.
It just doesn't feel that way with the ME team. Well, it's a lot more sparse at least.

Because this was planned all along and the ending was supposed to be a trick to see how many people would be made to side with the reaper AI (read: indoctrinated)?
Feels like they're making it steadily more and more obvious with each DLC what's really going on in the end sequence. Before the EC it was suspicious, after the EC it was fairly obvious that it was a reaper AI and wanted you to side with it in synthesis... Leviathan seems to take that another step or three.

We have a winner!

[RiouHotaru]

Here's the thing. This data stuff is interesting, but until we see it in it's FULL context, it doesn't make much sense right now. So how about we just wait till Leviathan comes out, and then see?

Also, this really doesn't do anything to Synthesis besides show us the result of the Catalyst's attempt at Synthesis...which he stated was a failure.

And yeah, these lines are all lacking context.  Let's not even connect the dots until we see the DLC.  Otherwise we're all just making blind-guess assumptions and you know what assumptions do, right?

Modifié par RiouHotaru, 08 août 2012 - 11:32 .

[TSA_383]

RiouHotaru wrote...

Here's the thing. This data stuff is interesting, but until we see it in it's FULL context, it doesn't make much sense right now. So how about we just wait till Leviathan comes out, and then see?

No.

[RiouHotaru]

Why not? A pastebin isn't going to give us all the context we need anyway. Just knowing the conversation Shepard has with the Catalyst from the Catalyst's side doesn't actually do anything.

And we're missing ALL the other information, such as any conversation with Leviathan/NPCs/etc.

You can't come to a conclusion/judgment call on just scant, ill-contexual information.

[RiouHotaru]

And besides, since when does making any of the decisions have anything to do with trusting the Catalyst?

He's a proxy designed to tell you what your options are. He's not making a sales pitc-

Oh right, I forgot, me and Taboo are in the minority who don't actually think "Catalyst-As-Antagonist".

[TSA_383]

RiouHotaru wrote...
He's a proxy designed to tell you what your options are. He's not making a sales pitc-

Really?
You didn't pick up that it's trying to sell you on the idea of synthesis?
REALLY?

Are you sure we played the same game?

[RiouHotaru]

Considering he gives me two other options, both equally viable?

No, not really. He believes Synthesis will solve the problem he was created to take care of, that's all. But it's still your choice, and one you have to make.

That he favors it doesn't make his explanation a sales pitch. Again, you guys give him way too much credit.

[RiptideX1090]

RiouHotaru wrote...

Oh right, I forgot, me and Taboo are in the minority who don't actually think "Catalyst-As-Antagonist".

The Catalyst is the Reapers. The Reapers have been the antagonists for the entire series.

[RiptideX1090]

RiouHotaru wrote...

Considering he gives me two other options, both equally viable?

No, not really. He believes Synthesis will solve the problem he was created to take care of, that's all. But it's still your choice, and one you have to make.

That he favors it doesn't make his explanation a sales pitch. Again, you guys give him way too much credit.

He also believes wiping out all life in the galaxy every couple of millenia takes care of what he was created to do.

That's really all the reason I need not to do what he wants.

The prospect of Leviathan reinforcing this is appealing.

[saracen16]

RiptideX1090 wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

Oh right, I forgot, me and Taboo are in the minority who don't actually think "Catalyst-As-Antagonist".

The Catalyst is the Reapers. The Reapers have been the antagonists for the entire series.

An antagonist, by definition, is a person or faction that opposes, struggles or fights against, or competes with an adversary. By the time of the ending, the Catalyst and the Reapers cease to perform that function as their interests collude with those of Shepard vis-a-vis the Crucible.

[RiptideX1090]

saracen16 wrote...

RiptideX1090 wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

Oh right, I forgot, me and Taboo are in the minority who don't actually think "Catalyst-As-Antagonist".

The Catalyst is the Reapers. The Reapers have been the antagonists for the entire series.

An antagonist, by definition, is a person or faction that opposes, struggles or fights against, or competes with an adversary. By the time of the ending, the Catalyst and the Reapers cease to perform that function as their interests collude with those of Shepard vis-a-vis the Crucible.

They did not cease. Even as Shepard was speaking with the Catalyst, the Reapers were attacking. Without a high enough EMS, the Reapers were even trying, and succeeding, in destroying the Crucible. Shepard and the Reapers, and the Catalyst, for that matter, never cullude their interests. Asking about Control even elaborates this, the Catalyst does not want to be replaced by Shepard, but he'd have no choice.

Synthesis is the only ending the Catalyst likely survives in. Of course he picks that one to endorse. The Reapers are, after all, devoted to nothing but self-preservation.

Modifié par RiptideX1090, 08 août 2012 - 11:52 .

[Baronesa]

saracen16 wrote...

An antagonist, by definition, is a person or faction that opposes, struggles or fights against, or competes with an adversary. By the time of the ending, the Catalyst and the Reapers cease to perform that function as their interests collude with those of Shepard vis-a-vis the Crucible.

Last I checked the fight still continued outside...

what a load of crap...

The Catalyst just present you ITS solutions tot he PROBLEM ITS perceives.

[TSA_383]

saracen16 wrote...

RiptideX1090 wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

Oh right, I forgot, me and Taboo are in the minority who don't actually think "Catalyst-As-Antagonist".

The Catalyst is the Reapers. The Reapers have been the antagonists for the entire series.

An antagonist, by definition, is a person or faction that opposes, struggles or fights against, or competes with an adversary. By the time of the ending, the Catalyst and the Reapers cease to perform that function as their interests collude with those of Shepard vis-a-vis the Crucible.

....No.

Exactly how do shepards interests align themselves with those of the reapers?

Shepard's aim for the past 3 games: Destroy the reapers.
Reapers' aim for the last 3 games: Merge synthetic and organic life, by force if necessary.

Personally, the two strike me as being mutually exclusive.

Frankly, I think if you're siding with the reapers come the end sequence... well, hmm, what did we say about all the characters so far who sided with the reapers?
They were... I************

Baronesa wrote...

saracen16 wrote...

An antagonist, by definition, is a person or faction that opposes, struggles or fights against, or competes with an adversary. By the time of the ending, the Catalyst and the Reapers cease to perform that function as their interests collude with those of Shepard vis-a-vis the Crucible.

Last I checked the fight still continued outside...

what a load of crap...

The Catalyst just present you ITS solutions tot he PROBLEM ITS perceives.

 
Exactly this.
It's a blatant trick.

Modifié par TSA_383, 08 août 2012 - 11:53 .

[RiouHotaru]

RiptideX1090 wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

Considering he gives me two other options, both equally viable?

No, not really. He believes Synthesis will solve the problem he was created to take care of, that's all. But it's still your choice, and one you have to make.

That he favors it doesn't make his explanation a sales pitch. Again, you guys give him way too much credit.

He also believes wiping out all life in the galaxy every couple of millenia takes care of what he was created to do.

That's really all the reason I need not to do what he wants.

The prospect of Leviathan reinforcing this is appealing.

That's funny, because he WANTS you to pick an option that will end the current cycle and present a new solution for the galaxy.

So far, what I've seen of Leviathan only reinforces that his creators are the ones at fault for what's going on.  They made him to solve a flawed problem, forcing him to use a flawed solution as the answer.

If anything, I pity the Catalyst.

[Memnon]

saracen16 wrote...

RiptideX1090 wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

Oh right, I forgot, me and Taboo are in the minority who don't actually think "Catalyst-As-Antagonist".

The Catalyst is the Reapers. The Reapers have been the antagonists for the entire series.

An antagonist, by definition, is a person or faction that opposes, struggles or fights against, or competes with an adversary. By the time of the ending, the Catalyst and the Reapers cease to perform that function as their interests collude with those of Shepard vis-a-vis the Crucible.

So you are dismissing the fact that the Reapers have been our primary opponent the entire trilogy because in the final 10 minutes they give us a chance to kill ourselves to save the galaxy?

[RiouHotaru]

RiptideX1090 wrote...

Synthesis is the only ending the Catalyst likely survives in. Of course he picks that one to endorse. The Reapers are, after all, devoted to nothing but self-preservation.

Actually, this is a big assumption.  You forget, he was created for the SOLE purpose of solving the problem.  Once the problem is solved, what then?  He has no purpose.  No reason to assume he still exists.

[RiouHotaru]

Stornskar wrote...

saracen16 wrote...

RiptideX1090 wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

Oh right, I forgot, me and Taboo are in the minority who don't actually think "Catalyst-As-Antagonist".

The Catalyst is the Reapers. The Reapers have been the antagonists for the entire series.

An antagonist, by definition, is a person or faction that opposes, struggles or fights against, or competes with an adversary. By the time of the ending, the Catalyst and the Reapers cease to perform that function as their interests collude with those of Shepard vis-a-vis the Crucible.

So you are dismissing the fact that the Reapers have been our primary opponent the entire trilogy because in the final 10 minutes they give us a chance to kill ourselves to save the galaxy?

What I think he's trying to get across is that he (and myself) see the Catalyst and the Reapers as two separate sets of individuals.  When Shepard is talking to the Catalyst, he's NOT talking to the Reapers.  The Reapers aren't the one saying "Here are the options", they aren't the ones giving the exposition dump.

[MattFini]

BleedingUranium wrote...

TSA_383 wrote...

AstusOz wrote...

In any case, I'm just curious why some of the writers haven't been active in the discussions. It's like the complete opposite of the DA team. I mean, the DA team didn't respond for the first month or so after the game was released but then started getting more and more involved.
It just doesn't feel that way with the ME team. Well, it's a lot more sparse at least.

Because this was planned all along and the ending was supposed to be a trick to see how many people would be made to side with the reaper AI (read: indoctrinated)?
Feels like they're making it steadily more and more obvious with each DLC what's really going on in the end sequence. Before the EC it was suspicious, after the EC it was fairly obvious that it was a reaper AI and wanted you to side with it in synthesis... Leviathan seems to take that another step or three.

We have a winner!

I used to believe this.  And I still would like to, although I just feel like it's their attempt to make sense of the disastrous mess they initially served up. 

Maybe I'm not being fair to the team whose wriitng I legitimately loved for nearly three games, but I can't see this as being an intentional result.

[Baronesa]

Catalyst: "I control the Reapers, they are my solution"

Sorry... that puts the Catalyst as the antagonist, not as info dump

[RiouHotaru]

The writing team might also be busy. And there's the fact that really, if they came here they'd just get flamed by folks asking loaded questions or have every little word they say picked apart.

And/or people "reading between the lines" when no such 'between' exists.

Hell if I was a writer for ME3 I wouldn't hang out on the BSN. I barely hang out as is because people don't want to talk about anything BUT the ending.

[RiouHotaru]

Baronesa wrote...

Catalyst: "I control the Reapers, they are my solution"

Sorry... that puts the Catalyst as the antagonist, not as info dump

Except that his actions don't follow what any antagonist should do.

Why would any antagonist worth their salt try to help their enemy when their enemy is moments away from defeat?

[wright1978]

RiouHotaru wrote...

RiptideX1090 wrote...

Synthesis is the only ending the Catalyst likely survives in. Of course he picks that one to endorse. The Reapers are, after all, devoted to nothing but self-preservation.

Actually, this is a big assumption.  You forget, he was created for the SOLE purpose of solving the problem.  Once the problem is solved, what then?  He has no purpose.  No reason to assume he still exists.

The assumption is that problem is solved and more realistically the problem actually existed anywhere other than the catalyst's insane head. Logically it makes no sense for catalyst to stop existing given its zealotry. The logical conclusion is that it will hang around ready to maim and slaughter if events deviate from its wishes.

[RiptideX1090]

RiouHotaru wrote...

That's funny, because he WANTS you to pick an option that will end the current cycle and present a new solution for the galaxy.

So far, what I've seen of Leviathan only reinforces that his creators are the ones at fault for what's going on.  They made him to solve a flawed problem, forcing him to use a flawed solution as the answer.

If anything, I pity the Catalyst.

A solution to a problem that does not exist, as exhibited by EDI and and the Geth once you obtain peace. He does not even acknowledge that his logic is flawed, and thus ends the harvest. This is even possible, as he clearly states that he controls the Reapers. He can end the cycle whenever he wants, but does not. Instead he forces you to make a decision that no matter what you do, screws over the galaxy in some regard. He either makes you kill the geth, or keep the Reapers alive via control with the possibility of continuing the cycle, or forces his solution on the galaxy. Make no mistake, the Catalyst is not your friend. He is an AI caught in a feedback loop. If he was really trying to preserve as much life as possible, he would acknowledge his flawed logic, which you proved is flawed on Rannoch, and halt his attack. But that's not the case. He instead uses any attachment to the geth you may have gained to coerce you into a solution that fulfills his logic. By either continuing the cycles as the new Catalyst, or fulfilling the harvest for him.

And forgive me if I do not pity an abomination that has destroyed quadrillions of lives, if not more.

[RiptideX1090]

RiouHotaru wrote...

RiptideX1090 wrote...

Synthesis is the only ending the Catalyst likely survives in. Of course he picks that one to endorse. The Reapers are, after all, devoted to nothing but self-preservation.

Actually, this is a big assumption.  You forget, he was created for the SOLE purpose of solving the problem.  Once the problem is solved, what then?  He has no purpose.  No reason to assume he still exists.

By your logic, the Reapers no longer have a reason to exist, either, yet they are depicted as not shutting down or destroying themselves.