1085 réponses à ce sujet

[RiouHotaru]

wright1978 wrote...

The assumption is that problem is solved and more realistically the problem actually existed anywhere other than the catalyst's insane head. Logically it makes no sense for catalyst to stop existing given its zealotry. The logical conclusion is that it will hang around ready to maim and slaughter if events deviate from its wishes.

And once again, anthropomorphization of a computer program.  Really, you guys are attributing way too many sapient attributes to an AI.

[Baronesa]

RiouHotaru wrote...

wright1978 wrote...

The assumption is that problem is solved and more realistically the problem actually existed anywhere other than the catalyst's insane head. Logically it makes no sense for catalyst to stop existing given its zealotry. The logical conclusion is that it will hang around ready to maim and slaughter if events deviate from its wishes.

And once again, anthropomorphization of a computer program.  Really, you guys are attributing way too many sapient attributes to an AI.

By definition an AI is SAPIENT!

Artificial Intelligence

An Artificial Intelligence (AI) is a self-aware computing system capable of learning and independent decision making. Creation of a conscious AI requires adaptive code, a slow, expensive education, and a specialized quantum computer called a "blue box".

Overview

An AI cannot be transmitted across a communication channel or computer network. Without its blue box, an AI is no more than data files. Loading these files into a new blue box will create a new personality, as variations in the quantum hardware and runtime results create unpredictable variations.

The geth serve as a cautionary tale against the dangers of rogue AI, and in Citadel space they are technically illegal.

Advocacy groups argue, however, that an AI is a living, conscious entity deserving the same rights as organics.
They argue that continued use of the term "artificial" is institutionalized racism on the part of organic life; the term
"synthetic" is considered the politically correct alternative.

Artificial intelligence is a key concern for the Citadel races,one that pre-dates the emergence of sentient geth, though the geth are seen as a perfect example of how organic and synthetic life would struggle to co-exist. Tali points out that synthetic races have no use whatsoever for organics—they don't have the same needs or drives as biological creatures, so they have no need to trade resources or information with them. That is why the geth have isolated themselves beyond the Perseus Veil. An AI gives the view from the other side of the fence when it tells Shepard that, from a synthetic point of view, "all organics must destroy or control synthetic life forms".

Modifié par Baronesa, 08 août 2012 - 12:12 .

[RiptideX1090]

RiouHotaru wrote...

Baronesa wrote...

Catalyst: "I control the Reapers, they are my solution"

Sorry... that puts the Catalyst as the antagonist, not as info dump

Except that his actions don't follow what any antagonist should do.

Why would any antagonist worth their salt try to help their enemy when their enemy is moments away from defeat?

Again, if he was trying to help you, he'd simply end the harvest and the attack on the Crucible.

[RiouHotaru]

RiptideX1090 wrote...

A solution to a problem that does not exist, as exhibited by EDI and and the Geth once you obtain peace. He does not even acknowledge that his logic is flawed, and thus ends the harvest. This is even possible, as he clearly states that he controls the Reapers. He can end the cycle whenever he wants, but does not. Instead he forces you to make a decision that no matter what you do, screws over the galaxy in some regard. He either makes you kill the geth, or keep the Reapers alive via control with the possibility of continuing the cycle, or forces his solution on the galaxy. Make no mistake, the Catalyst is not your friend. He is an AI caught in a feedback loop. If he was really trying to preserve as much life as possible, he would acknowledge his flawed logic, which you proved is flawed on Rannoch, and halt his attack. But that's not the case. He instead uses any attachment to the geth you may have gained to coerce you into a solution that fulfills his logic. By either continuing the cycles as the new Catalyst, or fulfilling the harvest for him.

And forgive me if I do not pity an abomination that has destroyed quadrillions of lives, if not more.

Again, I pity him because his CREATORS believed there was a 'problem', and created him, investing in him the power to make the 'solution' possible.

His only crime is that he was created in the first place.  The blame lies solely on his CREATORS for the deaths inflicted upon the galaxy.  That he is made into their scapegoat because they cannot be properly punished is a tragic thing indeed.

[RiouHotaru]

RiptideX1090 wrote...

Again, if he was trying to help you, he'd simply end the harvest and the attack on the Crucible.

Except it's not in his programming to do so.  His programming demands he continue to carry out his solution.  It's why he can't enact any of the three options.  It's why he places the burden of choice on you.  It's his loophole.  He can't make a change happen, but you can.

[RiptideX1090]

RiouHotaru wrote...

Again, I pity him because his CREATORS believed there was a 'problem', and created him, investing in him the power to make the 'solution' possible.

His only crime is that he was created in the first place.  The blame lies solely on his CREATORS for the deaths inflicted upon the galaxy.  That he is made into their scapegoat because they cannot be properly punished is a tragic thing indeed.

Yes, well, as his creators are dead and the Catalyst has been litterally raping entire civilizations to death for the past billion years, you will forgive me for not feeling sympathetic towards him.

[wright1978]

RiouHotaru wrote...

wright1978 wrote...

The assumption is that problem is solved and more realistically the problem actually existed anywhere other than the catalyst's insane head. Logically it makes no sense for catalyst to stop existing given its zealotry. The logical conclusion is that it will hang around ready to maim and slaughter if events deviate from its wishes.

And once again, anthropomorphization of a computer program.  Really, you guys are attributing way too many sapient attributes to an AI.

And you are treating an AI like a simple computer program when they are a sapient/sentient life form.

[Memnon]

MattFini wrote...

I used to believe this.  And I still would like to, although I just feel like it's their attempt to make sense of the disastrous mess they initially served up. 

Maybe I'm not being fair to the team whose wriitng I legitimately loved for nearly three games, but I can't see this as being an intentional result.

No, I think you're right - pre EC, I told the IT folks that I would have loved to believe that they were right, but I'm more inclined (call me a cynic) to believe that BW just ran out of time and the end was sloppily thrown together. My thoughts are that future DLCs are going to try to shore up the story, but chances are they'll just add more questions than answer

Modifié par Stornskar, 08 août 2012 - 12:10 .

[TSA_383]

RiouHotaru wrote...

Baronesa wrote...

Catalyst: "I control the Reapers, they are my solution"

Sorry... that puts the Catalyst as the antagonist, not as info dump

Except that his actions don't follow what any antagonist should do.

Why would any antagonist worth their salt try to help their enemy when their enemy is moments away from defeat?

Because it's not helping.

It's trying to make you side with it.

The reapers (and by extension the catalyst) have wanted shepard quite blatantly since ME2.
What was the most recent thing we heard harbinger say?


"Struggle if you must. Your mind will be ours."

[RiptideX1090]

RiouHotaru wrote...

RiptideX1090 wrote...

Again, if he was trying to help you, he'd simply end the harvest and the attack on the Crucible.

Except it's not in his programming to do so.  His programming demands he continue to carry out his solution.  It's why he can't enact any of the three options.  It's why he places the burden of choice on you.  It's his loophole.  He can't make a change happen, but you can.

Which I elect to do by shutting him and his abominations down. As was always intended. Because they are caught in a feedback loop, using circular logic both in their solution and their execution of said solution. Which is why I do not trust him enough to enact Synthesis, because it is using that logic to complete his programming. I would rather end his insanity forever than appease it by finishing his original function in the most invasive and grotesque way possible.

[3DandBeyond]

Taboo-XX wrote...

If this is true, Synthesis is going to take another beating.

Well seeing as I think many of us already agreed the "kid" was a totally spaced "AI" who was continually attempting synthesis AND the reapers already always seemed to be his attempt at it, I can't see this changes much.  He's basically saying what he already said and what most of us figured out.  Now, we can get it with pictures.  This head canon gets pictures.

I think it was pretty obvious if you read about the Leviathans of Dis that the pre-cursor to a reaper as this dead ship.  And it was up for grabs as to whether the kid was unhinged, lying, evil or all 3.  But none of that mattered.  Even if he's Mother Theresa in a hoodie, all that matters is what he's doing, not why he's doing it.  The kid talks about a fire doing what it must-well, do we then need a fire's motivations in order to want to get a bucket of water and put the fire out?  And if some guy pops out of the shadows and says, "I'm responsible for the fire-I started it to help you", do you care if he's crazy or lying about what he's doing?  I think you want him to stop it and it's ridiculous to do what he wants to get him to stop.  It's like the guy giving you a can of gasoline and saying "this will help put the fire out."

The kid made no secret of trying to perform synthesis.  And his reasons are because he thinks evolution will get there some day anyway and that it's perfection.  Well, of course he thinks it's perfection because he thinks he can do no wrong and he's been trying to achieve it-it gets organics to be more like him.  And he sees it as the goal of evolution because he sees what he is doing as some form of evolution or that he is serving evolution.  HIs view of it is that he always intervenes to advance cultures-that's evolution in his "opinion".  The counter to that is self-reliance and self-determination, but he sees that goes against his view of order.  Evolution is predictable and orderly as he sees it.  Natural evolution is just the opposite; it is chaotic and sometimes random and self-advancing through leaps and mutations or slowly through growth and adaptation.  He doesn't believe any being should or can rightly determine anything.

[RiouHotaru]

RiptideX1090 wrote...
 I would rather end his insanity forever than appease it by finishing his original function in the most invasive and grotesque way possible.

You're welcome to your opinion, as long as you recognize that "invasive" and grotesque" are subjective.  EC slides show that Synthesis is just as good as any other ending save Refusal.  If you don't like it (and you clearly don't), that's perfectly reasonable.

But this insatiable bashing really needs to quit.  Synthesis is no more invasive than Destroy is.

(Ironic, since I'm a Destroy advocate)

[Baronesa]

3DandBeyond wrote...

I think it was pretty obvious if you read about the Leviathans of Dis that the pre-cursor to a reaper as this dead ship.  And it was up for grabs as to whether the kid was unhinged, lying, evil or all 3.  But none of that mattered.  Even if he's Mother Theresa in a hoodie, all that matters is what he's doing, not why he's doing it. 

That... exactly that...

And mother Theresa may not be a good example, once you read about her *shudders*

[wright1978]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

If this is true, Synthesis is going to take another beating.

Well seeing as I think many of us already agreed the "kid" was a totally spaced "AI" who was continually attempting synthesis AND the reapers already always seemed to be his attempt at it, I can't see this changes much.  He's basically saying what he already said and what most of us figured out.  Now, we can get it with pictures.  This head canon gets pictures.

I think it was pretty obvious if you read about the Leviathans of Dis that the pre-cursor to a reaper as this dead ship.  And it was up for grabs as to whether the kid was unhinged, lying, evil or all 3.  But none of that mattered.  Even if he's Mother Theresa in a hoodie, all that matters is what he's doing, not why he's doing it.  The kid talks about a fire doing what it must-well, do we then need a fire's motivations in order to want to get a bucket of water and put the fire out?  And if some guy pops out of the shadows and says, "I'm responsible for the fire-I started it to help you", do you care if he's crazy or lying about what he's doing?  I think you want him to stop it and it's ridiculous to do what he wants to get him to stop.  It's like the guy giving you a can of gasoline and saying "this will help put the fire out."

The kid made no secret of trying to perform synthesis.  And his reasons are because he thinks evolution will get there some day anyway and that it's perfection.  Well, of course he thinks it's perfection because he thinks he can do no wrong and he's been trying to achieve it-it gets organics to be more like him.  And he sees it as the goal of evolution because he sees what he is doing as some form of evolution or that he is serving evolution.  HIs view of it is that he always intervenes to advance cultures-that's evolution in his "opinion".  The counter to that is self-reliance and self-determination, but he sees that goes against his view of order.  Evolution is predictable and orderly as he sees it.  Natural evolution is just the opposite; it is chaotic and sometimes random and self-advancing through leaps and mutations or slowly through growth and adaptation.  He doesn't believe any being should or can rightly determine anything.

Excellent post.

[RiouHotaru]

TSA_383 wrote...

Because it's not helping.

It's trying to make you side with it.

The reapers (and by extension the catalyst) have wanted shepard quite blatantly since ME2.
What was the most recent thing we heard harbinger say?

"Struggle if you must. Your mind will be ours."

If that was the case, presenting you with ANY of the options besides Synthesis would be counter-productive.  He'd do what he'd do on low EMS-endings and only present Synthesis.

And people haven't explained that either.  If his intent is to manipulate you into siding with him, why only give you the one option on a low EMS ending?

[Morty Smith]

Speculation.

[RiptideX1090]

RiouHotaru wrote...

RiptideX1090 wrote...
 I would rather end his insanity forever than appease it by finishing his original function in the most invasive and grotesque way possible.

You're welcome to your opinion, as long as you recognize that "invasive" and grotesque" are subjective.  EC slides show that Synthesis is just as good as any other ending save Refusal.  If you don't like it (and you clearly don't), that's perfectly reasonable.

But this insatiable bashing really needs to quit.  Synthesis is no more invasive than Destroy is.

(Ironic, since I'm a Destroy advocate)

Invasive is not subjective. You implant every living person with cybernetic implants and alter their DNA, and link them to synthetics. It fundamentally alters what people are. Against their will. You can argue Destroy is invasive and grotesque against the Geth, and I'd be inclined to agree, but they knew, just like everyone else, this could well be the end, and were willing to fight to the last platform to see it through. They chose to fight, and if necessary, die. No one, aside from the Catalyst, ever asked for Synthesis. Not a single living person. Unless you want to count Saren, who was a Reaper slave.

You are entitled to your opinion. I just happen to completely disagree with it.

[RiptideX1090]

RiouHotaru wrote...

TSA_383 wrote...

Because it's not helping.

It's trying to make you side with it.

The reapers (and by extension the catalyst) have wanted shepard quite blatantly since ME2.
What was the most recent thing we heard harbinger say?

"Struggle if you must. Your mind will be ours."

If that was the case, presenting you with ANY of the options besides Synthesis would be counter-productive.  He'd do what he'd do on low EMS-endings and only present Synthesis.

And people haven't explained that either.  If his intent is to manipulate you into siding with him, why only give you the one option on a low EMS ending?

I'm willing to chalk that one up to poor writing. It can't be explained because there isn't an explanation beyond making the war assets seem to matter for something. Which is a gameplay issue. And the inability of the writers to bridge the gap between said gameplay and their inability to write a decent conclusion.

[saracen16]

[quote]RiptideX1090 wrote...

[quote]saracen16 wrote...

[quote]RiptideX1090 wrote...

[quote]RiouHotaru wrote...

Oh right, I forgot, me and Taboo are in the minority who don't actually think "Catalyst-As-Antagonist".[/quote]

The Catalyst is the Reapers. The Reapers have been the antagonists for the entire series.

[/quote]

An antagonist, by definition, is a person or faction that opposes, struggles or fights against, or competes with an adversary. By the time of the ending, the Catalyst and the Reapers cease to perform that function as their interests collude with those of Shepard vis-a-vis the Crucible.
[/quote]

They did not cease. Even as Shepard was speaking with the Catalyst, the Reapers were attacking. Without a high enough EMS, the Reapers were even trying, and succeeding, in destroying the Crucible. Shepard and the Reapers, and the Catalyst, for that matter, never cullude their interests. Asking about Control even elaborates this, the Catalyst does not want to be replaced by Shepard, but he'd have no choice.[/quote]

Because the organics and synthetics were also attacking the Reapers? The Reapers are defending themselves as well. I don't think the Catalyst was dissuading Shepard more than he was actually telling him what was going to happen if he chose that option: he really would die, lose his corporeal form, and control the Reapers. 

[quote]Synthesis is the only ending the Catalyst likely survives in. Of course he picks that one to endorse. The Reapers are, after all, devoted to nothing but self-preservation.[/quote]

And how do you know that? According to The Fall of Thessia in the Codex, the Reapers have accepted the loss of several of their capital ships before moving in to destroy Thessia. At this point, there's too many of them to care about self-preservation since their main function is to reap (which in their POV is to prevent tech singularity from happenning). I don't see how the antagonist role is missed.

[quote]TSA_383 wrote...

....No.

Exactly how do shepards interests align themselves with those of the reapers?

Shepard's aim for the past 3 games: Destroy the reapers.[/quote]

Shepard's goal has been to stop them, not necessarily destroy them. This goes back to Mass Effect 1 at the end, when he mentions that he will find a way to stop the Reapers, not necessarily blow them to bits.

As for his interests aligning with the Reapers, it's obvious: to use the Crucible. Shepard wants to use it to stop the Reapers. The Crucible changed the Catalyst and created new possibilities to fulfill his programming (i.e. end the organic-synthetic conflict). The option of destroying the Reapers also exists, and the Catalyst doesn't even try to stop you when you make your choice.

[quote]Reapers' aim for the last 3 games: Merge synthetic and organic life, by force if necessary.[/quote]

Err, no. Their goals were always unclear from the outset right until the last few minutes of the game. At first, we thought it was to destroy senselessly. At the end of ME2, we thought about reproduction. ME3's ending showed their true purpose: to avert tech singularity and organic-synthetic conflict. Those are their goals in spite of their activities.

[quote]Personally, the two strike me as being mutually exclusive.[/quote]

Not at the end. Their goals are similar.

[quote]Frankly, I think if you're siding with the reapers come the end sequence... well, hmm, what did we say about all the characters so far who sided with the reapers?
They were... I************ [/quote]

That's your prerogative to call me that. I, however, think the true indoctrinated servants of the Reapers are those who refused the Crucible, who actually let the cycle continue. The Crucible ends the cycle, regardless of what option you choose. Now, tell me who's indoctrinated: "wasting your time on a war that can't be won" or using the Crucible.

[quote]Baronesa wrote...

Last I checked the fight still continued outside...[/quote]

Read above. The fight continued because the Reapers were defending themselves against the fleets, who in this battle are the aggressors whether we like it or not.

[quote]The Catalyst just present you ITS solutions tot he PROBLEM ITS perceives. [/quote]

To borrow a phrase, this is "a load of crap". The Crucible introduced new variables and possibilities to the Catalyst, not the other way around.

[Tibbur]

Listen to EDI in the synthesis ending she sounds indoctrinated. reapers are our buddies, we can transend death, yadda yadda.

[Baronesa]

saracen16 wrote...


Because the organics and synthetics were also attacking the Reapers? The Reapers are defending themselves as well.

Oh come on.

Now they are defending themselves?

THEY INVADED OUR PLANETS, WE ARE TRYING TO STOP THEM FROM KILLING US BECAUSE THEY WOULD NOT STOP, AND THEY ARE THE ONES DEFENDING THEMSELVES?

Oh... If you so love the Reapers why don't you just let Sovereign win on Mass Effect?

[RiptideX1090]

The organics and synthetics were attacking because the Reapers were, right then and there, still harvesting people. Millions a day. The Reapers could have ceased firing and called for a ceasefire, or retreated. You know, to a planet that wasn't someone else's home. They had options, and instead chose to fight to the death. Again, citing the Fall of Thessia codex entry, going FTL during a fight is a completely sound strategy. They could have left and ended hostilities until Shepard made his choice.

As for self preservation, the fact that the Reapers are not infallible does not mean they do not place the highest priority on their own survival. Which they do. And they even use this to manipulate organics, such as with Saren and the people in their concentration camps. Extrapolating that the Catalyst IS the Reapers means it also places a high priority on it's own survival. Which as the geth have shown, is not unheard of for Synthetics, just as it is for organics.

[Blacklash93]

I hope Bioware realizes this is what happens when you try to reveal blatantly malevolent antagonists at the end of a trilogy as trying to be good all along. They end up looking like idiots trying to sound philisophical.

As for this. This "similar" solution to Synthesis isn't similar at all. I assumed Husks were the first attempt at Synthesis and were then repurposed into troops, but apparently cellular synthesis is similar to more collective-mind eldritch abominations in the vein of traditional Reapers. Yay... Because we needed more inconsistencies in the Catalyst to make the ending choices seem even more deceptive.

I think the Catalyst was supposed to provide a compelling and honest argument, but obviously that's not how it can be taken. The writers thought of what they believed was a neat twist and forgot to look at everything before to make sure it fit. And what do we get? An awful ending that appears to have decietful elements in it and BSN ranting on about it endlessly. Then we have desperate theories to salvage the ending like IT.

I still wonder why people are debating the inconsistencies of the Reapers like they're trying to trick you in deliberate writing. Here's the answer to why the Reapers don't make sense: bad writing. I stopped taking all Mass Effect lore and events seriously because it's stopped making sense all-around. The Reapers and Catalyst are just the greatest victims as I see it.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 08 août 2012 - 12:46 .

[RiptideX1090]

Tibbur wrote...

Listen to EDI in the synthesis ending she sounds indoctrinated. reapers are our buddies, we can transend death, yadda yadda.

And all that lovey dovey crap is going to come to a right end once new life evolves from scratch without the Synthesis implants. The only solution will be to force the implants on them, of course, and it will just result in more war.

Not to mention what being hooked up to machines is going to do to David Archer, or all the husks that are now alive again. It's just one big nightmare factory that never ends.

[MattFini]

Tibbur wrote...

Listen to EDI in the synthesis ending she sounds indoctrinated. reapers are our buddies, we can transend death, yadda yadda.

Agreed.  

The EC synthesis ending is the creepiest damn thing. 

Modifié par MattFini, 08 août 2012 - 12:39 .