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Nobody will trust the catalyst after Leviathan (Warning Leviathan Spoilers)


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#301
AresKeith

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saracen16 wrote...

Baronesa wrote...

saracen16 wrote...


Because the organics and synthetics were also attacking the Reapers? The Reapers are defending themselves as well.



Oh come on.

Now they are defending themselves?

THEY INVADED OUR PLANETS, WE ARE TRYING TO STOP THEM FROM KILLING US BECAUSE THEY WOULD NOT STOP, AND THEY ARE THE ONES DEFENDING THEMSELVES?


Spare me the emotional babble. There is no question that they are the aggressors in this war. However, in the battle for Earth, the allied fleet in space has taken to the offensive. At the last ten minutes of ME3, the variables have changed: the Catalyst ceases to serve the function of antagonist, regardless of what battle rages on outside the Citadel. The Catalyst already made it clear: he can't make the new solution happen. He is just continuing his programming.


Oh... If you so love the Reapers why don't you just let Sovereign win on Mass Effect?


Don't you just love strawmen?


did you really just say the Reapers were fighting in Self-defense when they've been doing thing for billions of years killing people and harvesting people and not expect them to fight back against the Reapers?

You are the biggest Reaper apologist ever

#302
Baronesa

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The poor Germans were just defending Berlin from the bully allied forces... what a horrible thing to attack them when they were so weakened...


Ugh...

You bend over backwards so much Saracen that you could be a contortionist...

#303
Applepie_Svk

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Baronesa wrote...

The poor Germans were just defending Berlin from the bully allied forces... what a horrible thing to attack them when they were so weakened...


Ugh...

You bend over backwards so much Saracen that you could be a contortionist...


You forget that part about race, Germans were also deffending the purity of Aryan race... death camps

Modifié par Applepie_Svk, 08 août 2012 - 03:26 .


#304
3DandBeyond

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RiptideX1090 wrote...

Baronesa wrote...
I convinced a few frinds to blindly buy ME and ME2 before ME3 launch, only based on my word alone, I always hyped BioWare games when they were on sale on Steam...

All those friends loved the games but after ME3... they won't even touch older BioWare games even knowing that those games are good... just because they don't want anything to do with BioWare...


Yeah.

All because two people with such massive egos locked themselves into a room and thought they could write ****** in a bottle and we'd drink it with smiles on our faces.

And it's a shame, too. I love Mass Effect. I don't think there is a person here on this site who would be here if they didn't. Sure, we complain and get upset, but it's because this series has left a really big mark on all of us. And I just loathe seeing it come down to this. Some non-sense about artistic integrity and everyone speculating because even after the EC, we still don't have any real closure.


The size of the real "love" we had for ME determined the size of the gaping hole ME3 left in us.  None of us is here because we wanted to hate on Bioware and hate on ME3.  None of us ever hoped and imagined that this ME Shepard's story ending arc would be a philosophical discussion on the motivations of the reaper's owner.  The reapers are all but non-existent at the end and we're left to argue and ultimately forced to agree with the enemy who has killed trillions of people because of his basic flaw.  At the beginning of ME1, I just want to say, "run Shepard while you have time."  And maybe Shepard and some of the people in the galaxy (while they still have brains) can eventually find some out of the galaxy planet (if possible) on which to live out their lives.

If we reject the kid, we get to see just how stupid the devs think we are.  All they have continually done is rip open the void ME3 created in us. 

#305
Ghurshog

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Applepie_Svk wrote...

saracen16 wrote...

The Catalyst already made it clear: he can't make the new solution happen. He is just continuing his programming.


So he is rogue VI which working with circular logic...


"rogue" implies taking action outside of what was instructed which isn't true.

The catalyst's creators failed to put in safeguards so left to its own devices without concepts of compasion or empathy it found the most 'statistically" viable option to fullfill its primary directives. But without safeguards the species that created it became its first victim. The chain of events seems clear to me so in the end  the Catalyst is doing exactly what it was programmed (ie parameters), the error lays with those that created it and the lack of foresight to envision their creation deciding to destroy them... wait isn't that the? (yep went there)

As with any computer system Garbage in -> Garbage out.

Modifié par Ghurshog, 08 août 2012 - 03:30 .


#306
memorysquid

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AresKeith wrote...

saracen16 wrote...

Baronesa wrote...

saracen16 wrote...


Because the organics and synthetics were also attacking the Reapers? The Reapers are defending themselves as well.



Oh come on.

Now they are defending themselves?

THEY INVADED OUR PLANETS, WE ARE TRYING TO STOP THEM FROM KILLING US BECAUSE THEY WOULD NOT STOP, AND THEY ARE THE ONES DEFENDING THEMSELVES?


Spare me the emotional babble. There is no question that they are the aggressors in this war. However, in the battle for Earth, the allied fleet in space has taken to the offensive. At the last ten minutes of ME3, the variables have changed: the Catalyst ceases to serve the function of antagonist, regardless of what battle rages on outside the Citadel. The Catalyst already made it clear: he can't make the new solution happen. He is just continuing his programming.



Oh... If you so love the Reapers why don't you just let Sovereign win on Mass Effect?


Don't you just love strawmen?


did you really just say the Reapers were fighting in Self-defense when they've been doing thing for billions of years killing people and harvesting people and not expect them to fight back against the Reapers?

You are the biggest Reaper apologist ever


No he didn't.  This is just a troll and I am missing out on the irony, right?

#307
memorysquid

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Baronesa wrote...

The poor Germans were just defending Berlin from the bully allied forces... what a horrible thing to attack them when they were so weakened...


Ugh...

You bend over backwards so much Saracen that you could be a contortionist...


Good night!  This is a video game and is significant of nothing in reality, certainly not WWII.  What is with all the hate-spewing nonsense?  Are you up past nap time?

#308
dreman9999

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RiptideX1090 wrote...

Blacklash93 wrote...

I hope Bioware realizes this is what happens when you try to reveal blatantly malevolent antagonists at the end of a trilogy as trying to be good all along. They end up looking like idiots trying to sound philisophical.

As for this. This "similar" solution to Synthesis isn't similar at all. I assumed Husks were the first attempt at Synthesis, but apparently cellular synthesis is similar to more collective-mind eldritch abominations in the vein of traditional Reapers. Yay... Because we needed more inconsistencies in the Catalyst to make the ending choices seem even more deceptive.

I think the Catalyst was supposed to provide a compelling and honest argument, but obviously that's not how it can be taken. The writers thought of what they thought was a neat twist and forgot to look at everything before to make sure it fit. And what do we get? An awful ending that appears to have decietful elements in it and BSN ranting on about it endlessly.


This.

It infuriates me to no end, too, that whenever I look at this series, all I can think about his how much the endings drive me nuts. I was so stoked for ME3, and I was one of Bioware's staunchest defenders.

And then the footage came in from the people who got it early. And the spiral to madness began. And now, BSN, which was always a volatile place to start, has been a smoking ruin ever since from all the bashing and hate.

Wait a second...This is how ME1 turned out. Why is it bad that ME3 DOES THIS?

#309
dreman9999

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BleedingUranium wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

TSA_383 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
It progrpming is to pick the salution. The one it can do.  It picking is not it changing it's programing. It just it blindly  doing the only salution it can do. That's how machines are.


Exactly.
It's a cold emotionless AI.

Tell it to stop organics and synthetics from fighting... how can it do that?
By making it so that there's no distinction. The ultimate nightmare. The ultimate solution. Synthesis.

Synthesis is not he problem here. One way or another it's happening.....

It being forced is the problem.
The new salution is no different then the old salution because of this.


No.

yES. it's happening. Right now their people making synthetic hearts, arms,spines, and legs. And once that is fine tuned people will want to us it to improve themselves.
Look and ghost in the shell and Deus Ex Machina....
It's going to happen.

#310
AresKeith

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dreman9999 wrote...

RiptideX1090 wrote...

Blacklash93 wrote...

I hope Bioware realizes this is what happens when you try to reveal blatantly malevolent antagonists at the end of a trilogy as trying to be good all along. They end up looking like idiots trying to sound philisophical.

As for this. This "similar" solution to Synthesis isn't similar at all. I assumed Husks were the first attempt at Synthesis, but apparently cellular synthesis is similar to more collective-mind eldritch abominations in the vein of traditional Reapers. Yay... Because we needed more inconsistencies in the Catalyst to make the ending choices seem even more deceptive.

I think the Catalyst was supposed to provide a compelling and honest argument, but obviously that's not how it can be taken. The writers thought of what they thought was a neat twist and forgot to look at everything before to make sure it fit. And what do we get? An awful ending that appears to have decietful elements in it and BSN ranting on about it endlessly.


This.

It infuriates me to no end, too, that whenever I look at this series, all I can think about his how much the endings drive me nuts. I was so stoked for ME3, and I was one of Bioware's staunchest defenders.

And then the footage came in from the people who got it early. And the spiral to madness began. And now, BSN, which was always a volatile place to start, has been a smoking ruin ever since from all the bashing and hate.

Wait a second...This is how ME1 turned out. Why is it bad that ME3 DOES THIS?


how did ME1 turn out like this?

#311
Baronesa

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memorysquid wrote...

Good night!  This is a video game and is significant of nothing in reality, certainly not WWII.  What is with all the hate-spewing nonsense?  Are you up past nap time?



This may be something new to you, but any sort of emdia does not exist in the vaccuum. Books, movies, music, comicbooks, videogames, all are informed and influenced by the culture of those who created it and by the one of those  who access it.

You can't take the real life comparisions and components from ME just like you can't take the real life components and comparisions from Tolkien's Lord of the Rings.

#312
Applepie_Svk

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dreman9999 wrote...
Wait a second...This is how ME1 turned out. Why is it bad that ME3 DOES THIS?


I don´t even ... It´s ... like a what the f.... rly ? Are you serious ?:?

#313
dreman9999

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TSA_383 wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...
He's a proxy designed to tell you what your options are. He's not making a sales pitc-

Really?
You didn't pick up that it's trying to sell you on the idea of synthesis?
REALLY?

Are you sure we played the same game?

He's right. The catalyst doesn't control what the crucible does. What happens in control and destory is the fault of the designers of the crucible.

#314
dreman9999

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RiptideX1090 wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

Considering he gives me two other options, both equally viable?

No, not really. He believes Synthesis will solve the problem he was created to take care of, that's all. But it's still your choice, and one you have to make.

That he favors it doesn't make his explanation a sales pitch. Again, you guys give him way too much credit.


He also believes wiping out all life in the galaxy every couple of millenia takes care of what he was created to do.

That's really all the reason I need not to do what he wants.

The prospect of Leviathan reinforcing this is appealing.

He perseerves them and he thinks that how he can solve the problem given to him.

#315
dreman9999

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Applepie_Svk wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
Wait a second...This is how ME1 turned out. Why is it bad that ME3 DOES THIS?


I don´t even ... It´s ... like a what the f.... rly ? Are you serious ?:?

Oh , yes lets hunt down Saren...He is totaly evil and wants to destroy humanity and take over the universe. He shuch a bad bad guy for no reason.:whistle:

#316
3DandBeyond

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saracen16 wrote...


Spare me the emotional babble. There is no question that they are the aggressors in this war. However, in the battle for Earth, the allied fleet in space has taken to the offensive. At the last ten minutes of ME3, the variables have changed: the Catalyst ceases to serve the function of antagonist, regardless of what battle rages on outside the Citadel. The Catalyst already made it clear: he can't make the new solution happen. He is just continuing his programming.



The kid/Catalyst is always the antagonist. 

The Catalyst says a lot of things-so might any enemy when backed into a corner.  You have exactly one being's word on what the crucible/citadel/catalyst combination does-the kid's.  And he has never been deceptive before right?  His programming is flawed, his logic is not logical, his actions have been single-minded and without nuance, but the truth is he has understanding of nuance-he just refuses to see it as viable.  He had determined the best course.  But it is no longer working - well if not then why is there a need for Shepard to make a new solution happen?  It seems like this would put the ball in Shepard's court.  The reapers are no longer working?  Then the best course of action is not action.  The kid says he needs a new solution (his old one isn't working) but he can't make the new solution (his new solution) happen.  Who says so?  Well of course, he does.  The only reason he can't make the new ones work is because they require either organic material and energy or they require a physical being act upon them.

Of course he is always the antagonist.  He is still attempting to deceive.  He leaves destroy if it's an authentic choice as some bungled ambiguous garbage that is self-contradictory.  And he further implies that killing the reapers might kill Shepard or anyone with synthetic parts-but he is so vague about it as to be laughable.

The Catalyst is supposed to be that which helps or causes a reaction.  It's not a passive thing.  It is by its very nature active.  He is especially active.  He understands nuance-he just rejects any alternative that he has not created.

We know-the crucible works in conjunction with the catalyst-not the citadel specifically but the catalyst, the kid.  The crucible "connects" to the citadel and the citadel is a part of the kid.

Who would know that the catalyst is the kid?  Who would be able to make an item that would act upon the kid and the citadel as well as create choices that would work on reapers to keep them from killing people?  Only the catalyst would.


--------------


Whoever created the crucible had to know:
The kid exists-the catalyst is an advanced AI.
The reapers exist-and are the catalyst's solution to a organic/synthetic problem.

Who knows about the kid:
The kid, his creators, and Shepard

Who knows about the reapers:
The kid's creators after becoming a reaper.
Everyone else.

Who could have created something that uses the kid and affects the reapers:
The kid or his creators-after becoming a reaper.

If the kid's creators made the crucible, they did it after becoming a reaper because only then would they know about the reapers as the kid's solution.  The crucible changes the solution.  If the creators mode the crucible, the kid knew about it and agreed with it, because he controls the reapers and he controls his creators.  The crucible is owned by the kid, the solutions are owned by the kid.  The kid is always the antagonist.

#317
3DandBeyond

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dreman9999 wrote...

He's right. The catalyst doesn't control what the crucible does. What happens in control and destory is the fault of the designers of the crucible.


The kid designed the crucible.  Who else could have?

The Crucible acts in conjunction with the Catalyst to make the choices possible.  Who else knew what the Catalyst was besides the Catalyst himself?  Or was it just a good guess?

The Citadel is a part of the kid.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 08 août 2012 - 03:52 .


#318
dreman9999

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AresKeith wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

RiptideX1090 wrote...

Blacklash93 wrote...

I hope Bioware realizes this is what happens when you try to reveal blatantly malevolent antagonists at the end of a trilogy as trying to be good all along. They end up looking like idiots trying to sound philisophical.

As for this. This "similar" solution to Synthesis isn't similar at all. I assumed Husks were the first attempt at Synthesis, but apparently cellular synthesis is similar to more collective-mind eldritch abominations in the vein of traditional Reapers. Yay... Because we needed more inconsistencies in the Catalyst to make the ending choices seem even more deceptive.

I think the Catalyst was supposed to provide a compelling and honest argument, but obviously that's not how it can be taken. The writers thought of what they thought was a neat twist and forgot to look at everything before to make sure it fit. And what do we get? An awful ending that appears to have decietful elements in it and BSN ranting on about it endlessly.


This.

It infuriates me to no end, too, that whenever I look at this series, all I can think about his how much the endings drive me nuts. I was so stoked for ME3, and I was one of Bioware's staunchest defenders.

And then the footage came in from the people who got it early. And the spiral to madness began. And now, BSN, which was always a volatile place to start, has been a smoking ruin ever since from all the bashing and hate.

Wait a second...This is how ME1 turned out. Why is it bad that ME3 DOES THIS?


how did ME1 turn out like this?

We all though Saren was the bad guy at first. Then we found out he was a puppet forced to do what he did. Same concept of the reapers.

#319
phillip100

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dreman9999 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

@dreman9999 no, he started the Reaper solution, he killed his own creators against their will and order, the three end choices we're forced to make are on the Citadel which the Reapers built and are powered by the Crucible, he's behind it

1. Perserved creators.

2. He was give allowence from the start to pick how to solve the problem it was given. It picking the reaper salution is not going ageinst it's programing. For it to go ageint it's programing it would have not try and not solve the problem given to it at a all.


The Reaper solution is the solution that its creators didn't approve of, but the Catalyst A.I. used this solution anyway and created the first Reaper.

Modifié par phillip100, 08 août 2012 - 03:55 .


#320
dreman9999

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3DandBeyond wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

He's right. The catalyst doesn't control what the crucible does. What happens in control and destory is the fault of the designers of the crucible.


The kid designed the crucible.  Who else could have?

Wait a sec.
First ,give me a source that say that.
second, he says did not even think organics still had it.

So unless you can back up that comment with facts...BS.

And to pre-empt you...The control /destory councoles or what ever they are can easily b made by it's creators from the start for the catalyst creation.

#321
AresKeith

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dreman9999 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

RiptideX1090 wrote...

Blacklash93 wrote...

I hope Bioware realizes this is what happens when you try to reveal blatantly malevolent antagonists at the end of a trilogy as trying to be good all along. They end up looking like idiots trying to sound philisophical.

As for this. This "similar" solution to Synthesis isn't similar at all. I assumed Husks were the first attempt at Synthesis, but apparently cellular synthesis is similar to more collective-mind eldritch abominations in the vein of traditional Reapers. Yay... Because we needed more inconsistencies in the Catalyst to make the ending choices seem even more deceptive.

I think the Catalyst was supposed to provide a compelling and honest argument, but obviously that's not how it can be taken. The writers thought of what they thought was a neat twist and forgot to look at everything before to make sure it fit. And what do we get? An awful ending that appears to have decietful elements in it and BSN ranting on about it endlessly.


This.

It infuriates me to no end, too, that whenever I look at this series, all I can think about his how much the endings drive me nuts. I was so stoked for ME3, and I was one of Bioware's staunchest defenders.

And then the footage came in from the people who got it early. And the spiral to madness began. And now, BSN, which was always a volatile place to start, has been a smoking ruin ever since from all the bashing and hate.

Wait a second...This is how ME1 turned out. Why is it bad that ME3 DOES THIS?


how did ME1 turn out like this?

We all though Saren was the bad guy at first. Then we found out he was a puppet forced to do what he did. Same concept of the reapers.


um no the Starbrat claims it embodies the collective consciousness and memories of the Reapers, which means it is the Reapers. They are not Puppets, they were retconned from being their own AI into this mess

And the control/destroy option were built on the Citadel that was built by the Reapers.

Modifié par AresKeith, 08 août 2012 - 03:56 .


#322
Twinzam.V

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dreman9999 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

how did ME1 turn out like this?


We all though Saren was the bad guy at first. Then we found out he was a puppet forced to do what he did. Same concept of the reapers.


No. The Reapers are just is soldiers. In any situation wasnt proven that they were brainwashed.
Sovereign was fully capable and understod what was he doing. Saren however was convinced/brainwashed that what he was doing was the only solution and it was impossible to fight the Reapers.

Modifié par Twinzam.V, 08 août 2012 - 03:57 .


#323
dreman9999

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phillip100 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

@dreman9999 no, he started the Reaper solution, he killed his own creators against their will and order, the three end choices we're forced to make are on the Citadel which the Reapers built and are powered by the Crucible, he's behind it

1. Perserved creators.

2. He was give allowence from the start to pick how to solve the problem it was given. It picking the reaper salution is not going ageinst it's programing. For it to go ageint it's programing it would have not try and not solve the problem given to it at a all.


The Reaper solution is the solution that its creators didn't approve of, but the Catalyst A.I. used this solution anyway.

It's programing is not doing what ever it's creators tell it to do. It to solve an open ended question the creators gave it. 

#324
TMA LIVE

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3DandBeyond wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

He's right. The catalyst doesn't control what the crucible does. What happens in control and destory is the fault of the designers of the crucible.


The kid designed the crucible.  Who else could have?

The Crucible acts in conjunction with the Catalyst to make the choices possible.  Who else knew what the Catalyst was besides the Catalyst himself?  Or was it just a good guess?

The Citadel is a part of the kid.


I don't think the Catalyst designed it. If it did, it probably would've did Synthesis a long time ago. It'd only work if it wasn't in control of the Reapers anymore.

#325
dreman9999

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Twinzam.V wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

how did ME1 turn out like this?


We all though Saren was the bad guy at first. Then we found out he was a puppet forced to do what he did. Same concept of the reapers.


No. The Reapers are just is soldiers. In any situation wasnt proven that they were brainwashed.
Sovereign was fully capable and understod what was he doing. Saren however was convinced/brainwashed that what he was doing was the only solution.

The catalyst is the reapers. And even then the catalyst is brain washed by it's programing. Same concept of Saren.