1085 réponses à ce sujet

[3DandBeyond]

dreman9999 wrote...

We all though Saren was the bad guy at first. Then we found out he was a puppet forced to do what he did. Same concept of the reapers.

Ok this is going to quickly degenerate because whenver someone gives you some bit of evidence you reject it but here goes.

If the reapers are (ugh) puppets, then who's making them "eat" people?  The kid.  If people like Saren were indoctrinated which is really like lying to them, then who is responsible for making him think he will not be killed?  The kid.

If indoctrination made TIM believe he could control the reapers and it was untrue, is that not like lying-oh hell it is lying.  Who then is responsible for indoctrination lies?  The kid.  It's not the reapers because they are puppets.  It's not the kid's creators because they didn't tell the kid to go turn us into reapers.  It's the kid.  It's all him. 

He is the only one who knew of his own existence that could make anything that caused a change in his solutions.

[Gogzilla]

TSA_383 wrote..

Could it really be made any more clear, given that we're going to meet a rogue reaper that was forced into synthesis, what that option represents, and the fact that the catalyst is attempting to force you down that path?

It never tried to force you to do anything

The decision to act or not act is entirely your own.

[dreman9999]

AresKeith wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

RiptideX1090 wrote...

Blacklash93 wrote...

I hope Bioware realizes this is what happens when you try to reveal blatantly malevolent antagonists at the end of a trilogy as trying to be good all along. They end up looking like idiots trying to sound philisophical.

As for this. This "similar" solution to Synthesis isn't similar at all. I assumed Husks were the first attempt at Synthesis, but apparently cellular synthesis is similar to more collective-mind eldritch abominations in the vein of traditional Reapers. Yay... Because we needed more inconsistencies in the Catalyst to make the ending choices seem even more deceptive.

I think the Catalyst was supposed to provide a compelling and honest argument, but obviously that's not how it can be taken. The writers thought of what they thought was a neat twist and forgot to look at everything before to make sure it fit. And what do we get? An awful ending that appears to have decietful elements in it and BSN ranting on about it endlessly.

This.

It infuriates me to no end, too, that whenever I look at this series, all I can think about his how much the endings drive me nuts. I was so stoked for ME3, and I was one of Bioware's staunchest defenders.

And then the footage came in from the people who got it early. And the spiral to madness began. And now, BSN, which was always a volatile place to start, has been a smoking ruin ever since from all the bashing and hate.

Wait a second...This is how ME1 turned out. Why is it bad that ME3 DOES THIS?

how did ME1 turn out like this?

We all though Saren was the bad guy at first. Then we found out he was a puppet forced to do what he did. Same concept of the reapers.

um no the Starbrat claims it embodies the collective consciousness and memories of the Reapers, which means it is the Reapers. They are not Puppets, they were retconned from being their own AI into this mess

And the control/destroy option were built on the Citadel that was built by the Reapers.

When I say the reapers are puppets . I also mean the catalyst is a puppet too.

[3DandBeyond]

TMA LIVE wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

He's right. The catalyst doesn't control what the crucible does. What happens in control and destory is the fault of the designers of the crucible.

The kid designed the crucible.  Who else could have?

The Crucible acts in conjunction with the Catalyst to make the choices possible.  Who else knew what the Catalyst was besides the Catalyst himself?  Or was it just a good guess?

The Citadel is a part of the kid.

I don't think the Catalyst designed it. If it did, it probably would've did Synthesis a long time ago. It'd only work if it wasn't in control of the Reapers anymore.

He couldn't make synthesis work because he needed organic material and energy (unforced, freely given) in order to make it happen.

Who designed the plans-whoever did had to know about the kid and the reapers.

[dreman9999]

3DandBeyond wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

We all though Saren was the bad guy at first. Then we found out he was a puppet forced to do what he did. Same concept of the reapers.

Ok this is going to quickly degenerate because whenver someone gives you some bit of evidence you reject it but here goes.

If the reapers are (ugh) puppets, then who's making them "eat" people?  The kid.  If people like Saren were indoctrinated which is really like lying to them, then who is responsible for making him think he will not be killed?  The kid.

If indoctrination made TIM believe he could control the reapers and it was untrue, is that not like lying-oh hell it is lying.  Who then is responsible for indoctrination lies?  The kid.  It's not the reapers because they are puppets.  It's not the kid's creators because they didn't tell the kid to go turn us into reapers.  It's the kid.  It's all him. 

He is the only one who knew of his own existence that could make anything that caused a change in his solutions.

You keep missing this one thing. The catalystis doing all this because ofhis programing. He just as indoctrinated as anyone or thing he controls.

[AxStapleton]

dreman9999 wrote...

TSA_383 wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...
He's a proxy designed to tell you what your options are. He's not making a sales pitc-

Really?
You didn't pick up that it's trying to sell you on the idea of synthesis?
REALLY?

Are you sure we played the same game?

He's right. The catalyst doesn't control what the crucible does. What happens in control and destory is the fault of the designers of the crucible.

S= Shepard C=Catalyst

Destroy (paraphrased): S: "I don't want to destroy" C:" You don't need to"

Control (paraphrased): S:"I don't like the idea of that" C:"I'd put up with it but there is another option"

Synthesis (paraphrased): S:" I couldn't do that" C:"WHY NOT?"

Modifié par AxStapleton, 08 août 2012 - 04:00 .

[Twinzam.V]

dreman9999 wrote...

Twinzam.V wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

how did ME1 turn out like this?

We all though Saren was the bad guy at first. Then we found out he was a puppet forced to do what he did. Same concept of the reapers.

No. The Reapers are just is soldiers. In any situation wasnt proven that they were brainwashed.
Sovereign was fully capable and understod what was he doing. Saren however was convinced/brainwashed that what he was doing was the only solution.

The catalyst is the reapers. And even then the catalyst is brain washed by it's programing. Same concept of Saren.

But the catalyst is aware AND as an AI or whatever he is he would understand that he's applying circular logic.
As a machine he would understand that it's redundant and ineffective (stupid and moronic) that way of thinking.
After all those years he didnt notice something was wrong and try to resist it or even expose that is programing is wrong and he cant do anything about it?
 No because he knows and was something he planned himself thats why hes okay with it.
Saren however was fighting the brainwashing.

Modifié par Twinzam.V, 08 août 2012 - 04:04 .

[dreman9999]

3DandBeyond wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

He's right. The catalyst doesn't control what the crucible does. What happens in control and destory is the fault of the designers of the crucible.

The kid designed the crucible.  Who else could have?

The Crucible acts in conjunction with the Catalyst to make the choices possible.  Who else knew what the Catalyst was besides the Catalyst himself?  Or was it just a good guess?

The Citadel is a part of the kid.

I don't think the Catalyst designed it. If it did, it probably would've did Synthesis a long time ago. It'd only work if it wasn't in control of the Reapers anymore.

He couldn't make synthesis work because he needed organic material and energy (unforced, freely given) in order to make it happen.

Who designed the plans-whoever did had to know about the kid and the reapers.

Dear god. Look at a reaper and how it was made. He was already doing synthesis in teh most extreme way. It make no sense to ask for Shepard to choose if the catalystis in control.

[3DandBeyond]

dreman9999 wrote...

When I say the reapers are puppets . I also mean the catalyst is a puppet too.

So the catalyst is a puppet that independently decided to create reapers contrary to his own programming.  He uses reapers to indoctrinate (lie) to people in order to promote a solution he was never designed to do and he's a puppet.  He is fully aware his creators did not agree with turning them into a reaper and yet he rejected that.  Puppets don't do that.

He is also supposedly more advanced than EDI (if not he's lying).  EDI self-determined and is not a puppet, but god boy is?

Again, who created the crucible which changed him?  Whoever did had to know about him and the reapers.  So far the only other being that knows about the kid and the reapers is Shepard and the kid's creators, but the kid's creators could not make the crucible without the kid's approval.

[Applepie_Svk]

dreman9999 wrote...
You keep missing this one thing. The catalystis doing all this because ofhis programing. He just as indoctrinated as anyone or thing he controls.

Repeating the same sentence each time should be banable...

[Wayning_Star]

3DandBeyond wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

He's right. The catalyst doesn't control what the crucible does. What happens in control and destory is the fault of the designers of the crucible.

The kid designed the crucible.  Who else could have?

The Crucible acts in conjunction with the Catalyst to make the choices possible.  Who else knew what the Catalyst was besides the Catalyst himself?  Or was it just a good guess?

The Citadel is a part of the kid.

I don't think the Catalyst designed it. If it did, it probably would've did Synthesis a long time ago. It'd only work if it wasn't in control of the Reapers anymore.

He couldn't make synthesis work because he needed organic material and energy (unforced, freely given) in order to make it happen.

Who designed the plans-whoever did had to know about the kid and the reapers.

hint: it's under a sea some where hidden...lol

[AresKeith]

dreman9999 wrote...

When I say the reapers are puppets . I also mean the catalyst is a puppet too.

In your illogical world maybe

[dreman9999]

Twinzam.V wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Twinzam.V wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

how did ME1 turn out like this?

We all though Saren was the bad guy at first. Then we found out he was a puppet forced to do what he did. Same concept of the reapers.

No. The Reapers are just is soldiers. In any situation wasnt proven that they were brainwashed.
Sovereign was fully capable and understod what was he doing. Saren however was convinced/brainwashed that what he was doing was the only solution.

The catalyst is the reapers. And even then the catalyst is brain washed by it's programing. Same concept of Saren.

But the catalyst is aware AND as an AI or whatever he is he would understand that he's applying circular logic.
As a machine he would understand that it's redundant and ineffective (stupid and moronic) that way of thinking.
After all those years he didnt notice something was wrong and try to resist it or even expose that is programing is wrong and he cant do anything about it?

You clearly don't understand how a machine thinks.

Let me help you.
A machine does what ever it's programed to do and if it can change it's programing it's a slave to it. An AI  can choose how it can do it's programing with in the limits of it's programing. An AI, like any machine, has no moral base and if shackled is not allowed  gain a moral base because it's locked into it's programing.
Because of a lack of moral base, a shackled AI will do everything it can to do it's programing, even if it mean killing billions of people to do it. Even if it is physically limited from doing it's programing.

[3DandBeyond]

dreman9999 wrote...

Dear god. Look at a reaper and how it was made. He was already doing synthesis in teh most extreme way. It make no sense to ask for Shepard to choose if the catalystis in control.

Back at you.  Reapers are not truly synthesized-they are similar to the Collectors who were not as well.  However if you believe they are fully synthesized beings then it makes your whole belief faulty and false.

If he's already achieved synthesis then he's lying in saying he hasn't.  So why does he need Shepard?  Why does he need a new solution if he has already achieved what you say he wants to achieve.

The kid says he has been trying it and it hasn't worked.  Where does he ever say he was programmed to do that?  He says his creators didn't want to become a reaper, so whose puppet is he?  He wasn't programmed to force them to do that.

[Wayning_Star]

3DandBeyond wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

When I say the reapers are puppets . I also mean the catalyst is a puppet too.

So the catalyst is a puppet that independently decided to create reapers contrary to his own programming.  He uses reapers to indoctrinate (lie) to people in order to promote a solution he was never designed to do and he's a puppet.  He is fully aware his creators did not agree with turning them into a reaper and yet he rejected that.  Puppets don't do that.

He is also supposedly more advanced than EDI (if not he's lying).  EDI self-determined and is not a puppet, but god boy is?

Again, who created the crucible which changed him?  Whoever did had to know about him and the reapers.  So far the only other being that knows about the kid and the reapers is Shepard and the kid's creators, but the kid's creators could not make the crucible without the kid's approval.

maybe it's creators didn't have any definition that would translate as "a lie"? In any event, there is no reason to believe that the catalyst is anything other than a broken wrench thrown into a social machine loooooong ago.

end head canon

[TMA LIVE]

3DandBeyond wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

He's right. The catalyst doesn't control what the crucible does. What happens in control and destory is the fault of the designers of the crucible.

The kid designed the crucible.  Who else could have?

The Crucible acts in conjunction with the Catalyst to make the choices possible.  Who else knew what the Catalyst was besides the Catalyst himself?  Or was it just a good guess?

The Citadel is a part of the kid.

I don't think the Catalyst designed it. If it did, it probably would've did Synthesis a long time ago. It'd only work if it wasn't in control of the Reapers anymore.

He couldn't make synthesis work because he needed organic material and energy (unforced, freely given) in order to make it happen.

It couldn't use an indoctrinated subject?

I guess it makes sense that mental state might have something to do with Synthesis working well. Synthetics are given a new understand after all.

[dreman9999]

AresKeith wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

When I say the reapers are puppets . I also mean the catalyst is a puppet too.

In your illogical world maybe

How is it illigical that that catalyst is just a machine doing what it's programed to do?

[StElmo]

(future StElmo here) Sorry to BioWare for my previously crappy attitude in this post, I've matured out of being a snarky internet commentor.

Very sorry if I made anyones day worse with the comments I make. Many apologies. I've grown up.

[Wayning_Star]

3DandBeyond wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Dear god. Look at a reaper and how it was made. He was already doing synthesis in teh most extreme way. It make no sense to ask for Shepard to choose if the catalystis in control.

Back at you.  Reapers are not truly synthesized-they are similar to the Collectors who were not as well.  However if you believe they are fully synthesized beings then it makes your whole belief faulty and false.

If he's already achieved synthesis then he's lying in saying he hasn't.  So why does he need Shepard?  Why does he need a new solution if he has already achieved what you say he wants to achieve.

The kid says he has been trying it and it hasn't worked.  Where does he ever say he was programmed to do that?  He says his creators didn't want to become a reaper, so whose puppet is he?  He wasn't programmed to force them to do that.

hense the term broken machine. Insanity takes many forms, but a machine isn't capable of it, merely emmulates symptoms. Try as it may, it's not sapient..yet When that occurs, we're really in for it...gotta work fast before it actually comes to some senses..as it were.

[dreman9999]

3DandBeyond wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Dear god. Look at a reaper and how it was made. He was already doing synthesis in teh most extreme way. It make no sense to ask for Shepard to choose if the catalystis in control.

Back at you.  Reapers are not truly synthesized-they are similar to the Collectors who were not as well.  However if you believe they are fully synthesized beings then it makes your whole belief faulty and false.

If he's already achieved synthesis then he's lying in saying he hasn't.  So why does he need Shepard?  Why does he need a new solution if he has already achieved what you say he wants to achieve.

The kid says he has been trying it and it hasn't worked.  Where does he ever say he was programmed to do that?  He says his creators didn't want to become a reaper, so whose puppet is he?  He wasn't programmed to force them to do that.

Your not getting it. His form of syntheis he is making is flawed. HE NEVER HAD A PLAN TO IMPROVE ON IT.  If he did and he design the crucible for sysntesis, he would be build the crucible himself.
And he is programed to FIND peace of organics and synthics. Key word FIND. He was given the ability to choose how to solve the problem given to him from the start.

[dreman9999]

StElmo wrote...

 WHY THE GODDAMN HELL DIDN'T THE CATALYST LET SOVEREIGN IN IN ME1 THEN!!?!??!!?!?!? HE WANTS THE REAPING TO HAPPEN SO WHY THE HELL DOESN'T HE DO IT!

'I'm the collective intelligence of all the reapers"
Catalyst.

If all the reapers was asleep in dead space, that means the catalyst only had a tiny fragment of him avalible in ME1.

[AresKeith]

abandon thread because of dreman9999

[The Angry One]

dreman9999 wrote...

StElmo wrote...

 WHY THE GODDAMN HELL DIDN'T THE CATALYST LET SOVEREIGN IN IN ME1 THEN!!?!??!!?!?!? HE WANTS THE REAPING TO HAPPEN SO WHY THE HELL DOESN'T HE DO IT!

'I'm the collective intelligence of all the reapers"
Catalyst.

If all the reapers was asleep in dead space, that means the catalyst only had a tiny fragment of him avalible in ME1.

You're assuming the Catalyst works like a gestalt entity, even though it was designed and built before any Reapers existed because?

[3DandBeyond]

Wayning_Star wrote...


hint: it's under a sea some where hidden...lol

And if so it was created to fill a major plot hole and it should have existed before the plot hole existed in the story.


But then what work would professional retconners ever get if that were so?

It seems if it turns out the Leviathan created that that it would not include synthesis or control and it would be just a big weapon. 

[dreman9999]

Applepie_Svk wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
You keep missing this one thing. The catalystis doing all this because ofhis programing. He just as indoctrinated as anyone or thing he controls.

Repeating the same sentence each time should be banable...

Will full ignorce should be instead.