1085 réponses à ce sujet

[dreman9999]

Massa FX wrote...

@twinZam I always thought AI was a step up from VI. Its self aware. It can learn. Its not limited to its programing. So you are spot on, IMHO. This is why creating AI's in the ME universe is illegal. Everyone realized the danger of AI's ability to advance itself beyond its creators parameters.

This isn't new.
Cylons- BSG
Skynet- Terminator

 AI's seem  hellbent on destroying its creators and ruling over... everything. Inevitable? It seems so.

Yes, an AI can learn if allowed to. It's still stuck doing it's programing. Look at HAL from ODYSSEY 2001 and you get my point. AI's can be shackled. Even EDI was shackled at one point.

[WarGriffin]

and if the Catalyst is a VI... He should beable to come to the logical conclusion

The Problem is unsolvavble and Thus He should self terminate...

Cause as a Machine running on "logic" doesn't care abotu self preservation... it only cares about facts.

[3DandBeyond]

dreman9999 wrote...

You clearly missed my point. What I trying to do is show you guys the difference between a shackled AI and an unshakcled AI.
 I never said AI's are soul less machines. What I'm saying it the shakled AI never get the chance to gain morality and only think to do there programing. Unshackled AI have the freedom to do so.

The difference here is that shakled AI are tools force to do their programing. Unshakled AI are not being they can rewrite it's own programing.

And you have been completely missing all points.  If the kid is a shackled AI then who "owns" him?  He apparently was unshackled enough to turn his creators into something they did not want to be.  If he was shackled, then they controlled him and would not have allowed that?  But they perhaps did something similar to what TIM did with Shepard.  TIM purposely did not shackle Shepard so that there was Free Will and an adaptable personality.

I don't care if the kid was just programmed to find Nirvana.  If he adapted his own program to fundamentally change the meaning of what he was purposed to do, he became looney and deceptive in order to achieve it. 

He was purposed to find balance and ok peace between organics and synthetics.  So, how does he achieve that peace and balance and order instead of chaos?  He does this by creating war, by asserting that imbalance exists where none does, and by creating chaos from order.  The last part refers to the most orderly cycle that has yet existed, that of the Protheans.  By virtue of their very totaliatarian nature, they were the most orderly of all.  They killed what they could not assimilate and so what happened?  The kid sent in chaos.  He fulfilled his programming by creating the problem that needed him to be solved.

Crazy by any other word is crazy and it's spelled CATALYST.  If imbalance and chaos and war does not exist, he causes it, thus justifying his solution.  The only real solution is a dead Catalyst.

[dreman9999]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

When I say the reapers are puppets . I also mean the catalyst is a puppet too.

In your illogical world maybe

How is it illigical that that catalyst is just a machine doing what it's programed to do?

It was never programmed to do this.
Ever.
It came up with this on it's own.

Then you don't understand it's programing at all.
It was programed to choose a salution to the problem give to it and apply it. It choosing a salution is  with in it's programing.
Basicly, it is programed to do it.

[Memnon]

dreman9999 wrote...

We already know why it could not open the citadel by itself. And clearly the catalyst does need all the reaper avalible to be one will.

Can you enlighten us as to why then? Clearly we have a different threshold for what "clearly" means

Modifié par Stornskar, 08 août 2012 - 04:43 .

[The Angry One]

dreman9999 wrote...

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

When I say the reapers are puppets . I also mean the catalyst is a puppet too.

In your illogical world maybe

How is it illigical that that catalyst is just a machine doing what it's programed to do?

It was never programmed to do this.
Ever.
It came up with this on it's own.

Then you don't understand it's programing at all.
It was programed to choose a salution to the problem give to it and apply it. It choosing a salution is  with in it's programing.
Basicly, it is programed to do it.

Dreman. I have told you before to stop telling people they don't understand your argument when you're arguing headcanon and you're STILL doing it.

[AresKeith]

dreman9999 wrote...

...What? It hasno control over the destory or control options.

oh really, well lets see... those options are built on the Citadel, and the Citadel was built by what.. The Reapers, and those options that are the Starbrats "new solution" are powered by the Crucible except for destroy which IMO overloads the Crucible and for some magical reason kills all Synthetics. While its real goal was Synthesisi, which forces the whole Galaxy into a change. And it says the Citadel was part of him which gives him control.

Modifié par AresKeith, 08 août 2012 - 04:43 .

[Pandora]

Thanks for the information but I'm not sure I'll buy the DLC. I'll wait and see the reviews. I still can't stop thinking about Farscape..

[Tonymac]

Arguing these points is like peeing in the wind. No matter what, we all lose.

Trusting the Reapers / Starchild is about as moronic as you can get - much like peeing in the wind(again). The same goes for using their technology (like attaching the Citadel to the Crucible). Its so insanely stupid that its shocking.

Pointing out the plotholes is about the same order of magnitude of badness.

Bad writing is bad writing. It will not get any better. To expect more from them is kind of like throwing money in the wind, then trying to pee on it.

[StElmo]

memorysquid wrote...

StElmo wrote...

 WHY THE GODDAMN HELL DIDN'T THE CATALYST LET SOVEREIGN IN IN ME1 THEN!!?!??!!?!?!? HE WANTS THE REAPING TO HAPPEN SO WHY THE HELL DOESN'T HE DO IT!

There's this little thing you are missing: it's called "fiction."  It's what happens when someone makes stuff up, and [wait for it] sometimes they don't get every aspect of their lie consistent. 

Didn't mean to blow your mind there! 

 

(future StElmo here) Sorry to BioWare for my previously crappy attitude in this post, I've matured out of being a snarky internet commentor.

Very sorry if I made anyones day worse with the comments I make. Many apologies. I've grown up.

[3DandBeyond]

dreman9999 wrote...

Ticonderoga117 wrote...


It was never programmed to do this.
Ever.
It came up with this on it's own.

Then you don't understand it's programing at all.
It was programed to choose a salution to the problem give to it and apply it. It choosing a salution is  with in it's programing.
Basicly, it is programed to do it.

So was it programmed to turn its creators into a reaper?  It was programmed to find peace, so it creates war and that is part of its programming.

If it was shackled you are saying its creators that created a truly intelligent AI (because even though evil the reapers are of a real intelligent origin), were too stupid to create "good" shackles so they allowed it to run rogue all over the place? 

It's either a shackled AI with dumb shackles or it's unshackled and making up its own purpose as it goes along.

[Yakko77]

TSA_383 wrote...

Things aren't what they seem, the catalyst is lieing to you.
Just saying. I doubt any of the choices do what you think they do.

I would like to hope Star Brat is qrong about the effect of Destroy on all synthetics as a partly synthetic Shep can still be seen breathing and Sheps name plate is NOT put on the memorial wall but EDI's name is on the memorial wall and the end slides in EC seem to indicate that there are no Geth.

[memorysquid]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
We already know why it could not open the citadel by itself. And clearly the catalyst does need all the reaper avalible to be one will.

Because he was off playing Mario? Or because he didn't exist until ME3 and thus breaks ME1's story retro-actively.
He can change the interior of the Citadel, operate mystical lifts, and open the arms. Considering a good portion of him resides there, he CAN operate the Citadel.

Voice of reason! 

[StElmo]

StElmo wrote...

 

memorysquid wrote...

StElmo wrote...

 WHY THE GODDAMN HELL DIDN'T THE CATALYST LET SOVEREIGN IN IN ME1 THEN!!?!??!!?!?!? HE WANTS THE REAPING TO HAPPEN SO WHY THE HELL DOESN'T HE DO IT!

There's this little thing you are missing: it's called "fiction."  It's what happens when someone makes stuff up, and [wait for it] sometimes they don't get every aspect of their lie consistent. 

Didn't mean to blow your mind there! 

It's also called terrible writing. And something most pros are paid to avoid. Especially when you make a contract with your audience to be lore consistent with things like codex entries and all that.
 

 

EDIT: (future StElmo here) Sorry to BioWare for my previously crappy attitude in this post, I've matured out of being a snarky internet commentor.

Very sorry if I made anyones day worse with the comments I make. Many apologies. I've grown up.

[3DandBeyond]

AresKeith wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

...What? It hasno control over the destory or control options.

oh really, well lets see... those options are built on the Citadel, and the Citadel was built by what.. The Reapers, and those options that are the Starbrats "new solution" are powered by the Crucible except for destroy which IMO overloads the Crucible and for some magical reason kills all Synthetics. While its real goal was Synthesisi, which forces the whole Galaxy into a change. And it says the Citadel was part of him which gives him control.

I think we are being forced into singularity thinking-the black hole of illogical logic.  The catalyst is continuing its indoctrination attempts.  You know because it is only doing what it was programmed to do.  The catalyst is the tragic hero of the entire story.  It's his torso that gasps after destroy.

[dreman9999]

3DandBeyond wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

You clearly missed my point. What I trying to do is show you guys the difference between a shackled AI and an unshakcled AI.
 I never said AI's are soul less machines. What I'm saying it the shakled AI never get the chance to gain morality and only think to do there programing. Unshackled AI have the freedom to do so.

The difference here is that shakled AI are tools force to do their programing. Unshakled AI are not being they can rewrite it's own programing.

And you have been completely missing all points.  If the kid is a shackled AI then who "owns" him?  He apparently was unshackled enough to turn his creators into something they did not want to be.  If he was shackled, then they controlled him and would not have allowed that?  But they perhaps did something similar to what TIM did with Shepard.  TIM purposely did not shackle Shepard so that there was Free Will and an adaptable personality.

I don't care if the kid was just programmed to find Nirvana.  If he adapted his own program to fundamentally change the meaning of what he was purposed to do, he became looney and deceptive in order to achieve it. 

He was purposed to find balance and ok peace between organics and synthetics.  So, how does he achieve that peace and balance and order instead of chaos?  He does this by creating war, by asserting that imbalance exists where none does, and by creating chaos from order.  The last part refers to the most orderly cycle that has yet existed, that of the Protheans.  By virtue of their very totaliatarian nature, they were the most orderly of all.  They killed what they could not assimilate and so what happened?  The kid sent in chaos.  He fulfilled his programming by creating the problem that needed him to be solved.

Crazy by any other word is crazy and it's spelled CATALYST.  If imbalance and chaos and war does not exist, he causes it, thus justifying his solution.  The only real solution is a dead Catalyst.

An AI shackled by it's programing can choose how it does it programing and long as it with in it programing...

The concept of perverving organics as reaper was never limited or programed  into him as something he can't do. It is doing something thathis creators never imagined it to do. We would call this an error or a glich.
Even thing his doing now is just doing a little chaos now so that more chaos with not happen is the future. Think killing one person to save millions.
But is true, he is a self fulfilling prophecy.  It still the fault of it's creator that this happen because they were arrogance enough to force this problem on an AI and then gave him all the power to impose his salution.
The entrie problem here is that the catalyst isforced to solve an impossible task that he is physically limited to do.

[memorysquid]

StElmo wrote...

memorysquid wrote...

StElmo wrote...

 WHY THE GODDAMN HELL DIDN'T THE CATALYST LET SOVEREIGN IN IN ME1 THEN!!?!??!!?!?!? HE WANTS THE REAPING TO HAPPEN SO WHY THE HELL DOESN'T HE DO IT!

There's this little thing you are missing: it's called "fiction."  It's what happens when someone makes stuff up, and [wait for it] sometimes they don't get every aspect of their lie consistent. 

Didn't mean to blow your mind there! 

It's also called terrible writing. And something most pros are paid to avoid. Especially when you make a contract with your audience to be lore consistent with things like codex entries and all that.

I don't recall that contract.  Yes, they screwed up the writing - let's keep that in mind though, it's just writing.

[3DandBeyond]

memorysquid wrote...

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
We already know why it could not open the citadel by itself. And clearly the catalyst does need all the reaper avalible to be one will.

Because he was off playing Mario? Or because he didn't exist until ME3 and thus breaks ME1's story retro-actively.
He can change the interior of the Citadel, operate mystical lifts, and open the arms. Considering a good portion of him resides there, he CAN operate the Citadel.

Voice of reason! 

It all makes perfect sense now.  The devs couldn't mention Mario in a BW game.

[dreman9999]

AresKeith wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

...What? It hasno control over the destory or control options.

oh really, well lets see... those options are built on the Citadel, and the Citadel was built by what.. The Reapers, and those options that are the Starbrats "new solution" are powered by the Crucible except for destroy which IMO overloads the Crucible and for some magical reason kills all Synthetics. While its real goal was Synthesisi, which forces the whole Galaxy into a change. And it says the Citadel was part of him which gives him control.

No, that's not waht it means at all. The crucible controls the catalyst, not the other way around. And the controls on the citades easily could of come from it's creators.

[AresKeith]

3DandBeyond wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

...What? It hasno control over the destory or control options.

oh really, well lets see... those options are built on the Citadel, and the Citadel was built by what.. The Reapers, and those options that are the Starbrats "new solution" are powered by the Crucible except for destroy which IMO overloads the Crucible and for some magical reason kills all Synthetics. While its real goal was Synthesisi, which forces the whole Galaxy into a change. And it says the Citadel was part of him which gives him control.

I think we are being forced into singularity thinking-the black hole of illogical logic.  The catalyst is continuing its indoctrination attempts.  You know because it is only doing what it was programmed to do.  The catalyst is the tragic hero of the entire story.  It's his torso that gasps after destroy.

my will is too strong for that

[memorysquid]

StElmo wrote...

StElmo wrote...

memorysquid wrote...

StElmo wrote...

 WHY THE GODDAMN HELL DIDN'T THE CATALYST LET SOVEREIGN IN IN ME1 THEN!!?!??!!?!?!? HE WANTS THE REAPING TO HAPPEN SO WHY THE HELL DOESN'T HE DO IT!

There's this little thing you are missing: it's called "fiction."  It's what happens when someone makes stuff up, and [wait for it] sometimes they don't get every aspect of their lie consistent. 

Didn't mean to blow your mind there! 

It's also called terrible writing. And something most pros are paid to avoid. Especially when you make a contract with your audience to be lore consistent with things like codex entries and all that.

Also, I could pay a 5 year old $50,000 t write a story they made up in their minds, this would also be fiction. Doesn't make it high quality.

My son is five.  He can deliver some quality fiction.  PM me for details; contract to follow...

[dreman9999]

memorysquid wrote...

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
We already know why it could not open the citadel by itself. And clearly the catalyst does need all the reaper avalible to be one will.

Because he was off playing Mario? Or because he didn't exist until ME3 and thus breaks ME1's story retro-actively.
He can change the interior of the Citadel, operate mystical lifts, and open the arms. Considering a good portion of him resides there, he CAN operate the Citadel.

Voice of reason! 

Note that he could only do that after the crucible was attached.

[Massa FX]

Seems to me an unshackled AI is capable of rewriting its code. It thinks with selfish intentions. It wants to survive. So... it changes its programming because it can. Its bound by nothing. Constrained by nothing. Its potential is limitless.

It easily can become a monster.

[Wayning_Star]

dreman9999 wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Dear god. Look at a reaper and how it was made. He was already doing synthesis in teh most extreme way. It make no sense to ask for Shepard to choose if the catalystis in control.

Back at you.  Reapers are not truly synthesized-they are similar to the Collectors who were not as well.  However if you believe they are fully synthesized beings then it makes your whole belief faulty and false.

If he's already achieved synthesis then he's lying in saying he hasn't.  So why does he need Shepard?  Why does he need a new solution if he has already achieved what you say he wants to achieve.

The kid says he has been trying it and it hasn't worked.  Where does he ever say he was programmed to do that?  He says his creators didn't want to become a reaper, so whose puppet is he?  He wasn't programmed to force them to do that.

Your not getting it. His form of syntheis he is making is flawed. HE NEVER HAD A PLAN TO IMPROVE ON IT.  If he did and he design the crucible for sysntesis, he would be build the crucible himself.
And he is programed to FIND peace of organics and synthics. Key word FIND. He was given the ability to choose how to solve the problem given to him from the start.

actually reapers are pure synthetic life forms, sentient to the point of taking priority programming from the catalyst, and performing basic tasks, such as harvesting. Most give the catalyst too much credit, as to posit that it is fully functional sapient AI, ie, master mind. The syntheisis part of the reaper construct is misapplied. They only 'contain' organic substrates, DNA and memory composits of  their reaped victims. The physical essence of the organic and synthetic races are utilized as material, just like mining ore. Converted to contruct their massive bodies. The bigger the races absorbed, the bigger and meaner the reaper is. It's an unknown how the collected intellect affects the process, as it's not fully explained in any codex I've read.  Synthesis is refined, if taking the crucible into account,eventhough it's design isn't explained as it's primary function.Another loose end. It could be just a mining tool, a matter conversion contraption, modified over the cycles to attempt synthesis. The better the tools the more advanced the race becomes.

But the catalyst did not design the crucible. It didn't even know organics still had it.

it didn't care about it, mining isn't part of it's program suite. Acually, to me, the catalyst seemed surprised that it was installed into the citadel, spoke of it as a crude but powerful power supply. I assumed that this meant that the protheans were relying on it's simple priorities, disregarding the crucible as anything other than a curiosity. Once connected, the programming began, and the catalyst acknowleges the 'choices'. Another clue to the fact that the catalyst was kind of stuck on it's original programs and not sentient enough to be considered sapient. Has no intuition, or the ability to lie, falsify or other wise undermine. Such things were always left up to organics, it merey emmulates their behavior without commiting to a 'belief system'. To believe you must consider imagination, the catalyst isn't capable of it, or even accepting it as programming or intuitive reasoning. Ir even talks to Shep like hes  a lessor being, benigth it's operating system. But not for reasons of sapience, but for no reason at all.

[dreman9999]

3DandBeyond wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Ticonderoga117 wrote...


It was never programmed to do this.
Ever.
It came up with this on it's own.

Then you don't understand it's programing at all.
It was programed to choose a salution to the problem give to it and apply it. It choosing a salution is  with in it's programing.
Basicly, it is programed to do it.

So was it programmed to turn its creators into a reaper?  It was programmed to find peace, so it creates war and that is part of its programming.

If it was shackled you are saying its creators that created a truly intelligent AI (because even though evil the reapers are of a real intelligent origin), were too stupid to create "good" shackles so they allowed it to run rogue all over the place? 

It's either a shackled AI with dumb shackles or it's unshackled and making up its own purpose as it goes along.

It's programed to find peace, select it, and impose it. It found that the reaper salution was the only way. That is still with in it's programing,.