1085 réponses à ce sujet

[3DandBeyond]

memorysquid wrote...

StElmo wrote...


It's also called terrible writing. And something most pros are paid to avoid. Especially when you make a contract with your audience to be lore consistent with things like codex entries and all that.

I don't recall that contract.  Yes, they screwed up the writing - let's keep that in mind though, it's just writing.

It's a part of an unwritten agreement an author makes with a reader.  It's also called a promise.  The story itself creates the promise and if broken it must be for good reason or the story has broken faith with the reader.

It's something authors adhere to generally.  They set up a story world that defines what can be done in a story and in that universe and even as part of a genre.  Breaking such a contract is often not done well. 


Also twist endings aren't often done well.  Consider m. night shyamalan-he did maybe one or two well and then the rest have been pretty awful and predictable in nature.

[AresKeith]

dreman9999 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

...What? It hasno control over the destory or control options.

oh really, well lets see... those options are built on the Citadel, and the Citadel was built by what.. The Reapers, and those options that are the Starbrats "new solution" are powered by the Crucible except for destroy which IMO overloads the Crucible and for some magical reason kills all Synthetics. While its real goal was Synthesisi, which forces the whole Galaxy into a change. And it says the Citadel was part of him which gives him control.

No, that's not waht it means at all. The crucible controls the catalyst, not the other way around. And the controls on the citades easily could of come from it's creators.

now I know your making everything up. A power source can't control anything, only powers it, and the Catalyst even says the Shepard is the first organic to reach that area, plus I said this a million times The Reapers built that place his creators were long dead before then. Try to get that through your head and dump out the illogical stuff

Modifié par AresKeith, 08 août 2012 - 04:55 .

[Ticonderoga117]

dreman9999 wrote...
Note that he could only do that after the crucible was attached.

That doesn't mean he couldn't do it earlier.

[dreman9999]

Massa FX wrote...

Seems to me an unshackled AI is capable of rewriting its code. It thinks with selfish intentions. It wants to survive. So... it changes its programming because it can. Its bound by nothing. Constrained by nothing. Its potential is limitless.

It easily can become a monster.

It didn't rewrite it code. It program was the find a way for organcis and synthetics to coexsist and impose the salution. It was always given the ablity to choose how it solves the probelm on hand. The reapers alution is that how.

[Baronesa]

*sighs*


The 4 C of the writer-reader contract

Modifié par Baronesa, 08 août 2012 - 04:58 .

[dreman9999]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
Note that he could only do that after the crucible was attached.

That doesn't mean he couldn't do it earlier.

Please, point to me any actiong the catalyst does before the crucible is attached.

[Ticonderoga117]

dreman9999 wrote...
It's programed to find peace, select it, and impose it. It found that the reaper salution was the only way. That is still with in it's programing,.

It was programmed to mediate relations between organics and synthetics.
It then decided that since diplomacy is not permanent, an also not permanent "solution" was needed.
He then turned on his creators (not programmed), goo-ed them (not programmed), then turned them into a giant space squid (not programmed).

If it just stuck to it's programming, the Reapers would NOT exist.

[dreman9999]

AresKeith wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

...What? It hasno control over the destory or control options.

oh really, well lets see... those options are built on the Citadel, and the Citadel was built by what.. The Reapers, and those options that are the Starbrats "new solution" are powered by the Crucible except for destroy which IMO overloads the Crucible and for some magical reason kills all Synthetics. While its real goal was Synthesisi, which forces the whole Galaxy into a change. And it says the Citadel was part of him which gives him control.

No, that's not waht it means at all. The crucible controls the catalyst, not the other way around. And the controls on the citades easily could of come from it's creators.

now I know your making everything up. A power source can't control anything, only powers it, and the Catalyst even says the Shepard is the first organic to reach that area, plus I said this a million times The Reapers built that place his creators were long dead before then. Try to get that through your head and dump out the illogical stuff

Are you missing the fact that the catalyst was created by orgaincs. It's creators can easilly of made that location for the start of the creation of the catalyst.

[The Angry One]

dreman9999 wrote...

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
Note that he could only do that after the crucible was attached.

That doesn't mean he couldn't do it earlier.

Please, point to me any actiong the catalyst does before the crucible is attached.

The Citadel's interior was being changed *before* the Crucible was attached.
Who closed it in the first place? 
Who closes it in the Control ending?

[Ticonderoga117]

dreman9999 wrote...
Please, point to me any actiong the catalyst does before the crucible is attached.

I can't, because he doesn't exist in the story until that point.
The Crucible is just a power source. It doesn't allow him to interact with the Citadel AT ALL because no one knew he was there in the first place.

[3DandBeyond]

dreman9999 wrote...

It's programed to find peace, select it, and impose it. It found that the reaper salution was the only way. That is still with in it's programing,.

You know this is actually a humorous exercise.  You never actually address what is stated.  It finds peace by imposing war.  Now, that's logic for you.  Most shackled AIs programmed to do one thing will certainly do the exact opposite illogical thing.  You have no proof it was tasked with imposing it, that could have been its interpretation.  And again, there is real intelligence in being able to create such vast imposing things as reapers, so I've no doubt there was intelligence behind the kid's original programming.  So, if intelligent, how could the creators that have shackles on the kid, not have imposed controls that would prevent it from destroying them?

Shackles are imposed in order to prevent just such a thing.  TIM rejected them (the control chip).  But the kid is shackled and can destroy his creators?

[dreman9999]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
It's programed to find peace, select it, and impose it. It found that the reaper salution was the only way. That is still with in it's programing,.

It was programmed to mediate relations between organics and synthetics.
It then decided that since diplomacy is not permanent, an also not permanent "solution" was needed.
He then turned on his creators (not programmed), goo-ed them (not programmed), then turned them into a giant space squid (not programmed).

If it just stuck to it's programming, the Reapers would NOT exist.

He is programed to impose it salution.  The open ended salution he is given opens him up to nearly any salution, including perserving organics.

[Wayning_Star]

Massa FX wrote...

Seems to me an unshackled AI is capable of rewriting its code. It thinks with selfish intentions. It wants to survive. So... it changes its programming because it can. Its bound by nothing. Constrained by nothing. Its potential is limitless.

It easily can become a monster.

even if not sapient, that is, having the wisdom to know when it's doing wrong, or even have an equation including that variable, the snowball effects of a mistake can be quite devistating, apparently.

[mjboldy]

I'm confused as to the snapping the scientists out of their indoctrination by simply destroying the monument. I thought once indoctrination took hold, there was no going back.

[AresKeith]

dreman9999 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

...What? It hasno control over the destory or control options.

oh really, well lets see... those options are built on the Citadel, and the Citadel was built by what.. The Reapers, and those options that are the Starbrats "new solution" are powered by the Crucible except for destroy which IMO overloads the Crucible and for some magical reason kills all Synthetics. While its real goal was Synthesisi, which forces the whole Galaxy into a change. And it says the Citadel was part of him which gives him control.

No, that's not waht it means at all. The crucible controls the catalyst, not the other way around. And the controls on the citades easily could of come from it's creators.

now I know your making everything up. A power source can't control anything, only powers it, and the Catalyst even says the Shepard is the first organic to reach that area, plus I said this a million times The Reapers built that place his creators were long dead before then. Try to get that through your head and dump out the illogical stuff

Are you missing the fact that the catalyst was created by orgaincs. It's creators can easilly of made that location for the start of the creation of the catalyst.

and your missing the fact that what you just said made no sense, because you want to be right all the time

The Entire Citadel was created long after his creators were killed

Modifié par AresKeith, 08 août 2012 - 05:05 .

[The Angry One]

dreman9999 wrote...

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
It's programed to find peace, select it, and impose it. It found that the reaper salution was the only way. That is still with in it's programing,.

It was programmed to mediate relations between organics and synthetics.
It then decided that since diplomacy is not permanent, an also not permanent "solution" was needed.
He then turned on his creators (not programmed), goo-ed them (not programmed), then turned them into a giant space squid (not programmed).

If it just stuck to it's programming, the Reapers would NOT exist.

He is programed to impose it salution.  The open ended salution he is given opens him up to nearly any salution, including perserving organics.

For the 5 millionth time.

The Catalyst was created to oversee organic/synthetic relations and bring peace.
It was NOT created to prevent the extinction of organic life. The solution it came up with is a solution to the latter, not the former. IT CAME UP WITH A NEW DIRECTIVE BY ITSELF.

[AngryFrozenWater]

dreman9999 wrote...

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
Note that he could only do that after the crucible was attached.

That doesn't mean he couldn't do it earlier.

Please, point to me any actiong the catalyst does before the crucible is attached.

He builds three platforms on the Citadel to interact with the Crucible plus an elevator to get an organic up there.

[Massa FX]

I used to be a tester. Loved breaking code. Programmers would storm up to me and say show me! And I could. It baffled them and pissed them off.

Code isn't infallible.

Even code reprogrammed by a flawed unshackled AI to support its attempt to protect itself from being shut down.

Note: EDI (pretending to be a simple VI)
Note: Geth (I destroyed the heretics but Legion and pals went to the dark side instead of submitting to their creators.)

[Wayning_Star]

3DandBeyond wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

It's programed to find peace, select it, and impose it. It found that the reaper salution was the only way. That is still with in it's programing,.

You know this is actually a humorous exercise.  You never actually address what is stated.  It finds peace by imposing war.  Now, that's logic for you.  Most shackled AIs programmed to do one thing will certainly do the exact opposite illogical thing.  You have no proof it was tasked with imposing it, that could have been its interpretation.  And again, there is real intelligence in being able to create such vast imposing things as reapers, so I've no doubt there was intelligence behind the kid's original programming.  So, if intelligent, how could the creators that have shackles on the kid, not have imposed controls that would prevent it from destroying them?

Shackles are imposed in order to prevent just such a thing.  TIM rejected them (the control chip).  But the kid is shackled and can destroy his creators?

think autopilot on cruise control with infinate power and an endless supply of data and resouces. ie Mass Effect

social eqivalent of entering a black hole.

note: intelligent ability and data collcetion doesn't equate wisdom. It does what it "knows" too bad it's incorrect, wrong isn't in it's vocabulary...

[Mr.House]

So the people who became the Keepers, Protheans and many other organics that where simply killed or made into slaves, not Reapers are preserved? Uh huh.....

[memorysquid]

The Angry One wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
It's programed to find peace, select it, and impose it. It found that the reaper salution was the only way. That is still with in it's programing,.

It was programmed to mediate relations between organics and synthetics.
It then decided that since diplomacy is not permanent, an also not permanent "solution" was needed.
He then turned on his creators (not programmed), goo-ed them (not programmed), then turned them into a giant space squid (not programmed).

If it just stuck to it's programming, the Reapers would NOT exist.

He is programed to impose it salution.  The open ended salution he is given opens him up to nearly any salution, including perserving organics.

For the 5 millionth time.

The Catalyst was created to oversee organic/synthetic relations and bring peace.
It was NOT created to prevent the extinction of organic life. The solution it came up with is a solution to the latter, not the former. IT CAME UP WITH A NEW DIRECTIVE BY ITSELF.

Says who?  He could have enforced peace at any time by wiping out all organic life.  He didn't, presumably, for a reason - which he actually states in the ending sequence.

[dreman9999]

3DandBeyond wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

It's programed to find peace, select it, and impose it. It found that the reaper salution was the only way. That is still with in it's programing,.

You know this is actually a humorous exercise.  You never actually address what is stated.  It finds peace by imposing war.  Now, that's logic for you.  Most shackled AIs programmed to do one thing will certainly do the exact opposite illogical thing.  You have no proof it was tasked with imposing it, that could have been its interpretation.  And again, there is real intelligence in being able to create such vast imposing things as reapers, so I've no doubt there was intelligence behind the kid's original programming.  So, if intelligent, how could the creators that have shackles on the kid, not have imposed controls that would prevent it from destroying them?

Shackles are imposed in order to prevent just such a thing.  TIM rejected them (the control chip).  But the kid is shackled and can destroy his creators?

"I was first created to oversee the relations of orgranics and synthetics....."
Oversee.
1. To watch over and direct; supervise. 2. To subject to scrutiny; examine or inspect.

[3DandBeyond]

mjboldy wrote...

I'm confused as to the snapping the scientists out of their indoctrination by simply destroying the monument. I thought once indoctrination took hold, there was no going back.

Well there are a lot of things in ME that were always so until ME3 came along and then they weren't. 

[dreman9999]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
Note that he could only do that after the crucible was attached.

That doesn't mean he couldn't do it earlier.

Please, point to me any actiong the catalyst does before the crucible is attached.

He builds three platforms on the Citadel to interact with the Crucible plus an elevator to get an organic up there.

The 3 platform could of easilly bemade by the creators of the catalyst.

Modifié par dreman9999, 08 août 2012 - 05:09 .

[The Angry One]

memorysquid wrote...

Says who?  He could have enforced peace at any time by wiping out all organic life.  He didn't, presumably, for a reason - which he actually states in the ending sequence.

Says the fact that that is not peace, and that is not "overseeing relations".

Even if extermination did fit some twisted definition of peace... why not just do that then? Wipe out all life. Peace!
Why bother with the cycle? The cycle has nothing to do with the directive of peace.