It's also called terrible writing. And something most pros are paid to avoid. Especially when you make a contract with your audience to be lore consistent with things like codex entries and all that.
I don't recall that contract. Yes, they screwed up the writing - let's keep that in mind though, it's just writing.
I don't think anyone will disagree with you - in fact, that's pretty much the primary, underlying point here is that the Catalyst (i.e. his writing) makes no sense. Yet there are those who argue that the writing is actually great, beyond our understanding, and that we're just too stupid to realize how symbolically intelligent it is
dreman9999 wrote... It's programed to find peace, select it, and impose it. It found that the reaper salution was the only way. That is still with in it's programing,.
It was programmed to mediate relations between organics and synthetics. It then decided that since diplomacy is not permanent, an also not permanent "solution" was needed. He then turned on his creators (not programmed), goo-ed them (not programmed), then turned them into a giant space squid (not programmed).
If it just stuck to it's programming, the Reapers would NOT exist.
He is programed to impose it salution. The open ended salution he is given opens him up to nearly any salution, including perserving organics.
For the 5 millionth time.
The Catalyst was created to oversee organic/synthetic relations and bring peace. It was NOT created to prevent the extinction of organic life. The solution it came up with is a solution to the latter, not the former. IT CAME UP WITH A NEW DIRECTIVE BY ITSELF.
I was speculating with friends about this very thing ever since the EC came out. ME3 was originally full of holes and loose ends and ended in too uncharacteristic a way for a ME game, the EC filled a few holes and unexpectedly added a fourth ending, so I figured it'd be awesome if every story DLC added something new and progressively less stupid to the ending sequence. I never expected BW to actually do this, but it would be wonderful if this was really what they'd been planning all along.
dreman9999 wrote...
The Angry One wrote...
dreman9999 wrote...
Ticonderoga117 wrote...
dreman9999 wrote... It's programed to find peace, select it, and impose it. It found that the reaper salution was the only way. That is still with in it's programing,.
It was programmed to mediate relations between organics and synthetics. It then decided that since diplomacy is not permanent, an also not permanent "solution" was needed. He then turned on his creators (not programmed), goo-ed them (not programmed), then turned them into a giant space squid (not programmed).
If it just stuck to it's programming, the Reapers would NOT exist.
He is programed to impose it salution. The open ended salution he is given opens him up to nearly any salution, including perserving organics.
For the 5 millionth time.
The Catalyst was created to oversee organic/synthetic relations and bring peace. It was NOT created to prevent the extinction of organic life. The solution it came up with is a solution to the latter, not the former. IT CAME UP WITH A NEW DIRECTIVE BY ITSELF.
They do, but the solution it came up with (protecting organics from synthetics by killing them with synthetics) made no sense, which is highly highly uncharacteristic of what a computer would come up with. This is made especially worse since Reapers bear minimal resemblance to the nature of the species they consume and so it's kind of an obvious lie to say that species are preserved in Reaper form.
Modifié par Locutus_of_BORG, 08 août 2012 - 05:18 .
It's also called terrible writing. And something most pros are paid to avoid. Especially when you make a contract with your audience to be lore consistent with things like codex entries and all that.
I don't recall that contract. Yes, they screwed up the writing - let's keep that in mind though, it's just writing.
It's a part of an unwritten agreement an author makes with a reader. It's also called a promise. The story itself creates the promise and if broken it must be for good reason or the story has broken faith with the reader.
It's something authors adhere to generally. They set up a story world that defines what can be done in a story and in that universe and even as part of a genre. Breaking such a contract is often not done well.
Also twist endings aren't often done well. Consider m. night shyamalan-he did maybe one or two well and then the rest have been pretty awful and predictable in nature.
Especially in long series, writers forget. It happens all the time; in ME you have the added confounder of additional writers. The point is that ME is a better game than the vast majority of games I've played and all this uproar is a tempest in a teapot. Ultimately they made money and delivered a cool game. They bobbled the ending but offered the EC. If messing up like this becomes their norm, it will hurt their bottom line, otherwise, it is time to move on.
It's also called terrible writing. And something most pros are paid to avoid. Especially when you make a contract with your audience to be lore consistent with things like codex entries and all that.
I don't recall that contract. Yes, they screwed up the writing - let's keep that in mind though, it's just writing.
I don't think anyone will disagree with you - in fact, that's pretty much the primary, underlying point here is that the Catalyst (i.e. his writing) makes no sense. Yet there are those who argue that the writing is actually great, beyond our understanding, and that we're just too stupid to realize how symbolically intelligent it is
I "trust" the Catalyst, that being the subject of the thread, because rather than nitpicking apart the codex, I simply accept the obvious. The writers intended him to be what he is portrayed as. Not some evil genius IT mastermind. I don't trust him to have stellar logic; I just trust him to be what the writers intended him to be. His logic is fine. What is possibly wrong is one premise he holds that is empirical, not logical. Namely that synthetics will eventually wipe out organics.
So the people who became the Keepers, Protheans and many other organics that where simply killed or made into slaves, not Reapers are preserved? Uh huh.....
dreman9999 wrote... It's programed to find peace, select it, and impose it. It found that the reaper salution was the only way. That is still with in it's programing,.
It was programmed to mediate relations between organics and synthetics. It then decided that since diplomacy is not permanent, an also not permanent "solution" was needed. He then turned on his creators (not programmed), goo-ed them (not programmed), then turned them into a giant space squid (not programmed).
If it just stuck to it's programming, the Reapers would NOT exist.
He is programed to impose it salution. The open ended salution he is given opens him up to nearly any salution, including perserving organics.
For the 5 millionth time.
The Catalyst was created to oversee organic/synthetic relations and bring peace. It was NOT created to prevent the extinction of organic life. The solution it came up with is a solution to the latter, not the former. IT CAME UP WITH A NEW DIRECTIVE BY ITSELF.
So the people who became the Keepers, Protheans and many other organics that where simply killed or made into slaves, not Reapers are preserved? Uh huh.....
dreman9999 wrote... He is programed to impose it salution. The open ended salution he is given opens him up to nearly any salution, including perserving organics.
For the 5 millionth time.
The Catalyst was created to oversee organic/synthetic relations and bring peace. It was NOT created to prevent the extinction of organic life. The solution it came up with is a solution to the latter, not the former. IT CAME UP WITH A NEW DIRECTIVE BY ITSELF.
But what he is doing is not a solution by any stretch of the imagination. Kills Advanced civilizations. Leaves the Galaxy. Leaves tech around for new races to find and advance in ways they want, which happen to include making VI's and AI's. Comes back, goes "ZOMG! They're doing it AGAIN! God!" Repeat.
It's programed to find peace, select it, and impose it. It found that the reaper salution was the only way. That is still with in it's programing,.
You know this is actually a humorous exercise. You never actually address what is stated. It finds peace by imposing war. Now, that's logic for you. Most shackled AIs programmed to do one thing will certainly do the exact opposite illogical thing. You have no proof it was tasked with imposing it, that could have been its interpretation. And again, there is real intelligence in being able to create such vast imposing things as reapers, so I've no doubt there was intelligence behind the kid's original programming. So, if intelligent, how could the creators that have shackles on the kid, not have imposed controls that would prevent it from destroying them?
Shackles are imposed in order to prevent just such a thing. TIM rejected them (the control chip). But the kid is shackled and can destroy his creators?
"I was first created to oversee the relations of orgranics and synthetics....." Oversee. 1. To watch over and direct; supervise. 2. To subject to scrutiny; examine or inspect.
Well gee this really answered the shackled question, didn't it?
Please stop repeating what we already know. You see the catalyst as a tragic program that can't think and must only do what it is programmed to do no matter what that means. It wasn't told how to do it so it is making it up and is helpless.
At the same time it was meant to intelligently determine a way to find peace between synthetics and organics and to find balance between chaos and order. It creates war and chaos and kills organic life and then seeds the galaxy with tech to start the whole process again. It seems clear that if it wanted to prevent war and chaos, it would determine not to create it. And if it wanted to stop the conflict with an ultimate solution it would not leave tech around that would allow sentient AIs to be created. It would never have sent Sovereign with some "make the geth smarter" coding that Legion could adapt and use. It would never assist people in any kind of advancement.
If it thought this would repeatedly happen and killing organics worked well, it would just destroy everything and go live on a beach somewhere.
But what he is doing is not a solution by any stretch of the imagination. Kills Advanced civilizations. Leaves the Galaxy. Leaves tech around for new races to find and advance in ways they want, which happen to include making VI's and AI's. Comes back, goes "ZOMG! They're doing it AGAIN! God!" Repeat.
Says who? He could have enforced peace at any time by wiping out all organic life. He didn't, presumably, for a reason - which he actually states in the ending sequence.
Says the fact that that is not peace, and that is not "overseeing relations".
Even if extermination did fit some twisted definition of peace... why not just do that then? Wipe out all life. Peace! Why bother with the cycle? The cycle has nothing to do with the directive of peace.
Oversee. 1. To watch over and direct; supervise. 2. To subject to scrutiny; examine or inspect.
Overseeres can impose.
What the catalyst is doing is a concept ends justify the means. Cause chaos now future larger chaos will not happen in the furture.
Says who? He could have enforced peace at any time by wiping out all organic life. He didn't, presumably, for a reason - which he actually states in the ending sequence.
Says the fact that that is not peace, and that is not "overseeing relations".
Even if extermination did fit some twisted definition of peace... why not just do that then? Wipe out all life. Peace! Why bother with the cycle? The cycle has nothing to do with the directive of peace.
Oversee. [color=rgb(170, 170, 170)">1. ]To watch over and direct; supervise. [/color]2. To subject to scrutiny; examine or inspect.
Overseeres can impose.
What the catalyst is doing is a concept ends justify the means. Cause chaos now future larger chaos will not happen in the furture.
Which has nothing to do with it's directive, hence it came up with a new one, hence it's not shackled.
But what he is doing is not a solution by any stretch of the imagination. Kills Advanced civilizations. Leaves the Galaxy. Leaves tech around for new races to find and advance in ways they want, which happen to include making VI's and AI's. Comes back, goes "ZOMG! They're doing it AGAIN! God!" Repeat.
I don't care who you are, this is idiotic.
This exactly.
eh, it's too simplistic. Easy to say, impossible to prove.
My buick was so smart it decided to be a ford...etc
It's programed to find peace, select it, and impose it. It found that the reaper salution was the only way. That is still with in it's programing,.
You know this is actually a humorous exercise. You never actually address what is stated. It finds peace by imposing war. Now, that's logic for you. Most shackled AIs programmed to do one thing will certainly do the exact opposite illogical thing. You have no proof it was tasked with imposing it, that could have been its interpretation. And again, there is real intelligence in being able to create such vast imposing things as reapers, so I've no doubt there was intelligence behind the kid's original programming. So, if intelligent, how could the creators that have shackles on the kid, not have imposed controls that would prevent it from destroying them?
Shackles are imposed in order to prevent just such a thing. TIM rejected them (the control chip). But the kid is shackled and can destroy his creators?
"I was first created to oversee the relations of orgranics and synthetics....." Oversee. 1. To watch over and direct; supervise. 2. To subject to scrutiny; examine or inspect.
Well gee this really answered the shackled question, didn't it?
Please stop repeating what we already know. You see the catalyst as a tragic program that can't think and must only do what it is programmed to do no matter what that means. It wasn't told how to do it so it is making it up and is helpless.
At the same time it was meant to intelligently determine a way to find peace between synthetics and organics and to find balance between chaos and order. It creates war and chaos and kills organic life and then seeds the galaxy with tech to start the whole process again. It seems clear that if it wanted to prevent war and chaos, it would determine not to create it. And if it wanted to stop the conflict with an ultimate solution it would not leave tech around that would allow sentient AIs to be created. It would never have sent Sovereign with some "make the geth smarter" coding that Legion could adapt and use. It would never assist people in any kind of advancement.
Plese. It's shacled to be an overseer. It from the start was given freedom to choose how to solve the problem given to him. He is still doing his programing.
Says who? He could have enforced peace at any time by wiping out all organic life. He didn't, presumably, for a reason - which he actually states in the ending sequence.
Says the fact that that is not peace, and that is not "overseeing relations".
Even if extermination did fit some twisted definition of peace... why not just do that then? Wipe out all life. Peace! Why bother with the cycle? The cycle has nothing to do with the directive of peace.
Oversee. [color=rgb(170, 170, 170)">1. ]To watch over and direct; supervise. [/color]2. To subject to scrutiny; examine or inspect.
Overseeres can impose.
What the catalyst is doing is a concept ends justify the means. Cause chaos now future larger chaos will not happen in the furture.
Which has nothing to do with it's directive, hence it came up with a new one, hence it's not shackled.
Says who? He could have enforced peace at any time by wiping out all organic life. He didn't, presumably, for a reason - which he actually states in the ending sequence.
Says the fact that that is not peace, and that is not "overseeing relations".
Even if extermination did fit some twisted definition of peace... why not just do that then? Wipe out all life. Peace! Why bother with the cycle? The cycle has nothing to do with the directive of peace.
Oversee. [color=rgb(170, 170, 170)">1. ]To watch over and direct; supervise. [/color]2. To subject to scrutiny; examine or inspect.
Overseeres can impose.
What the catalyst is doing is a concept ends justify the means. Cause chaos now future larger chaos will not happen in the furture.
Which has nothing to do with it's directive, hence it came up with a new one, hence it's not shackled.
It's was never given a directive. It programing was to find a directive. It was given an open ended question to solve. It's job was to choose a salution and impose it.
The creators made the star child to solve their problems with synthetics vs organics? LOL the creators must have been very ignorant to put their trust in an AI of all things. Why not just wipe out all synthetic life, paving the way to the old traditional organic vs organic?
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