1085 réponses à ce sujet

[3DandBeyond]

The Angry One wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...


Oversee.
[color=rgb(170, 170, 170)">1. ]To watch over and direct; supervise. [/color]2. To subject to scrutiny; examine or inspect.

Overseeres can impose.

What the catalyst is doing is a concept  ends justify the means. Cause chaos now  future  larger chaos will not happen in the furture.

Which has nothing to do with it's directive, hence it came up with a new one, hence it's not shackled.

Exactly a shackled AI cannot do that which is in direct conflict with what it is supposed to do.  It would have to find another way.

[dreman9999]

Darth Death wrote...

The creators made the star child to solve their problems with synthetics vs organics? LOL the creators must have been very ignorant to put their trust in an AI of all things. Why not just wipe out all synthetic life, paving the way to the old traditional organic vs organic?

Becaue advance menat in teck always open to  synthetic life....Or we can make everything be like Dune and mess everyting out the old  way.

[Wayning_Star]

The Angry One wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

memorysquid wrote...

Says who?  He could have enforced peace at any time by wiping out all organic life.  He didn't, presumably, for a reason - which he actually states in the ending sequence.

Says the fact that that is not peace, and that is not "overseeing relations".

Even if extermination did fit some twisted definition of peace... why not just do that then? Wipe out all life. Peace!
Why bother with the cycle? The cycle has nothing to do with the directive of peace.

Oversee.
[color=rgb(170, 170, 170)">1. ]To watch over and direct; supervise. [/color]2. To subject to scrutiny; examine or inspect.

Overseeres can impose.

What the catalyst is doing is a concept  ends justify the means. Cause chaos now  future  larger chaos will not happen in the furture.

Which has nothing to do with it's directive, hence it came up with a new one, hence it's not shackled.

I almost fell into the logic trap that the catalyst knew what it was doing and provided enough tech to complete the cycle of harvest, plant, harvest. But realized that it couldn't, because that's a human/sapient life form condition...we were the ones who enjoyed that trap, like a gilded cage it was, er.. is. (requires instincts)

[dreman9999]

3DandBeyond wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...


Oversee.
[color=rgb(170, 170, 170)">1. ]To watch over and direct; supervise. [/color]2. To subject to scrutiny; examine or inspect.

Overseeres can impose.

What the catalyst is doing is a concept  ends justify the means. Cause chaos now  future  larger chaos will not happen in the furture.

Which has nothing to do with it's directive, hence it came up with a new one, hence it's not shackled.

Exactly a shackled AI cannot do that which is in direct conflict with what it is supposed to do.  It would have to find another way.

Let me ask you a question...What the catalyst ever given  a "how" to solving the problem it was given?

[3DandBeyond]

dreman9999 wrote...

It's was never given a directive. It programing was to find a directive. It was given an open ended question to solve. It's job was to choose a salution and impose it. 

Ok, do you even know what you are saying at this point?  It was given a purpose-that's its directive.  As you say it was to find balance and peace between organics and synthetics.  It is also to find order and stop chaos.  If it is shackled it cannot do the opposite.  It creates war by sending synthetics to kill organics.  It creates chaos.  It would not be able to do that.

And furthermore, shackles are protection mechanisms-to keep the shackled from turning on a creator.  That was what the control chip would have been for for Shepard if TIM had used it-to make sure Shepard followed orders and did what TIM wanted.

[dreman9999]

Wayning_Star wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

memorysquid wrote...

Says who?  He could have enforced peace at any time by wiping out all organic life.  He didn't, presumably, for a reason - which he actually states in the ending sequence.

Says the fact that that is not peace, and that is not "overseeing relations".

Even if extermination did fit some twisted definition of peace... why not just do that then? Wipe out all life. Peace!
Why bother with the cycle? The cycle has nothing to do with the directive of peace.

Oversee.
[color=rgb(170, 170, 170)">1. ]To watch over and direct; supervise. [/color]2. To subject to scrutiny; examine or inspect.

Overseeres can impose.

What the catalyst is doing is a concept  ends justify the means. Cause chaos now  future  larger chaos will not happen in the furture.

Which has nothing to do with it's directive, hence it came up with a new one, hence it's not shackled.

I almost fell into the logic trap that the catalyst knew what it was doing and provided enough tech to complete the cycle of harvest, plant, harvest. But realized that it couldn't, because that's a human/sapient life form condition...we were the ones who enjoyed that trap, like a gilded cage it was, er.. is. (requires instincts)

[color="#aaaaaa"]It's was never given a directive. It programing was to find a directive. It was given an open ended question to solve. It's job was to choose a salution and impose it.[/color] 

[dreman9999]

3DandBeyond wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

It's was never given a directive. It programing was to find a directive. It was given an open ended question to solve. It's job was to choose a salution and impose it. 

Ok, do you even know what you are saying at this point?  It was given a purpose-that's its directive.  As you say it was to find balance and peace between organics and synthetics.  It is also to find order and stop chaos.  If it is shackled it cannot do the opposite.  It creates war by sending synthetics to kill organics.  It creates chaos.  It would not be able to do that.

And furthermore, shackles are protection mechanisms-to keep the shackled from turning on a creator.  That was what the control chip would have been for for Shepard if TIM had used it-to make sure Shepard followed orders and did what TIM wanted.

It's perpose is to find and impose a salution to a problem.... To find and impose a salution. In that concept...is it ever stated how it has to solve the problem? His job is to find the salution...That means he is to pick what the salution is.If his job is to find and impose a salution, how is that when he does this the reaper salution he is not doing his programing?

Modifié par dreman9999, 08 août 2012 - 05:32 .

[3DandBeyond]

dreman9999 wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

Exactly a shackled AI cannot do that which is in direct conflict with what it is supposed to do.  It would have to find another way.

Let me ask you a question...What the catalyst ever given  a "how" to solving the problem it was given?

Let me ask you a question.  Have you been reading before posting?  No one ever said it was told how just as Shepard was never told how to do anything by TIM.

Shackling tells an AI what it cannot do.  A shackled AI cannot do anything that conflicts with what they are programmed to do.  If you shackle one it is so it won't hurt you and so it will do what it is supposed to do.  If you program it to do something and it does the opposite, your shackles didn't work, making you an idiot.

[Wayning_Star]

Locutus_of_BORG wrote...

I was speculating with friends about this very thing ever since the EC came out. ME3 was originally full of holes and loose ends and ended in too uncharacteristic a way for a ME game, the EC filled a few holes and unexpectedly added a fourth ending, so I figured it'd be awesome if every story DLC added something new and progressively less stupid to the ending sequence. I never expected BW to actually do this, but it would be wonderful if this was really what they'd been planning all along.

dreman9999 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
It's programed to find peace, select it, and impose it. It found that the reaper salution was the only way. That is still with in it's programing,.

It was programmed to mediate relations between organics and synthetics.
It then decided that since diplomacy is not permanent, an also not permanent "solution" was needed.
He then turned on his creators (not programmed), goo-ed them (not programmed), then turned them into a giant space squid (not programmed).

If it just stuck to it's programming, the Reapers would NOT exist.

He is programed to impose it salution. The open ended salution he is given opens him up to nearly any salution, including perserving organics.

For the 5 millionth time.

The Catalyst was created to oversee organic/synthetic relations and bring peace.
It was NOT created to prevent the extinction of organic life. The solution it came up with is a solution to the latter, not the former. IT CAME UP WITH A NEW DIRECTIVE BY ITSELF.

Oversee.
http://www.thefreedi...ary.com/oversee
1. To watch over and direct; supervise.
2. To subject to scrutiny; examine or inspect.

Overseers do impose.

They do, but the solution it came up with (protecting organics from synthetics by killing them with synthetics) made no sense, which is highly highly uncharacteristic of what a computer would come up with. This is made especially worse since Reapers bear minimal resemblance to the nature of the species they consume and so it's kind of an obvious lie to say that species are preserved in Reaper form.

it's more like "canning" than preserved, in any event. Machine minds aren't capable of 'diabolical' we tend to affix our intentions on them.

say out loud: I love my computer.

then analyse that statement for viability.

[saracen16]

AresKeith wrote...

did you really just say the Reapers were fighting in Self-defense when they've been doing thing for billions of years killing people and harvesting people and not expect them to fight back against the Reapers?

That's not what I said. I said that during the battle for Earth, they were defending themselves from the attack, and their defense was also offensive. The reason for this statement was to explain, simply, the impetus behind engaging the allied forces during the Catalyst conversation and the Crucible docking. I was not "apologizing" for their actions.

Stop making up straw-men.

Modifié par saracen16, 08 août 2012 - 05:37 .

[th3warr1or]

Taboo-XX wrote...

FALLACIES. FALLACIES.

I've been saying this for months.

He doesn't lie, he truly has no concept of what the **** he's doing.

And neither does anyone who picks synthesis and attempts to justify it.

If this is true, the people who pick synthesis are no better than Starbrat himself.

You turned the whole galaxy, including your friends, into mini-Reapers to keep them alive. I wonder
how Javik would react to this (being a Reaper).

Exactly like Starbrat. Turning Leviathans into Reapers and then saying "Oh you asked
me to come up with a solution and I did."

Modifié par th3warr1or, 08 août 2012 - 05:36 .

[3DandBeyond]

Wayning_Star wrote...


it's more like "canning" than preserved, in any event. Machine minds aren't capable of 'diabolical' we tend to affix our intentions on them.

say out loud: I love my computer.

then analyse that statement for viability.

I think too much is made of it when someone says a computer is evil.  That's not saying the computer is truly evil, but the actions are or have an evil result.  It's not the intent but the outcome that defines this use of human characteristic.

[Shadowvalker]

An automated floorcleaner that have been given the directive to keep the floor clean but not given any ohter directive is in it's right to:

Wash the floor
Burn the floor

or what ever it takes to accomplish it's task....

[dreman9999]

3DandBeyond wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

Exactly a shackled AI cannot do that which is in direct conflict with what it is supposed to do.  It would have to find another way.

Let me ask you a question...What the catalyst ever given  a "how" to solving the problem it was given?

Let me ask you a question.  Have you been reading before posting?  No one ever said it was told how just as Shepard was never told how to do anything by TIM.

Shackling tells an AI what it cannot do.  A shackled AI cannot do anything that conflicts with what they are programmed to do.  If you shackle one it is so it won't hurt you and so it will do what it is supposed to do.  If you program it to do something and it does the opposite, your shackles didn't work, making you an idiot.

And that is what you not getting.
Where is it ever stated that the catalyst is prevented from Preserving organics?
This is an example of the 
Zeroth Law  law of robotics...http://en.wikipedia....eroth_Law_added 

An AI chooses how it does it's programing.
What your not getting is that there was no limit to perseving organics as reapers applied into the catalyst logic.
What going on is the same thing that happen to HAL in odyssey 2001.

[Darth Death]

dreman9999 wrote...

Darth Death wrote...

The creators made the star child to solve their problems with synthetics vs organics? LOL the creators must have been very ignorant to put their trust in an AI of all things. Why not just wipe out all synthetic life, paving the way to the old traditional organic vs organic?

Becaue advance menat in teck always open to  synthetic life....Or we can make everything be like Dune and mess everyting out the old  way.

Sure, a civilization can have advance technology, but that doesn't mean necessarily that they need synthetics. It may make their way of life more effective, but the question should be ask, "Is it worth it"? The quarians are a perfect example of the question. Was the construction of the geth worth all the trouble in the long run? Were they a necessity? 

[th3warr1or]

Shadowvalker wrote...

An automated floorcleaner that have been given the directive to keep the floor clean but not given any ohter directive is in it's right to:

Wash the floor
Burn the floor

or what ever it takes to accomplish it's task....

Yeah. But it doesn't automatically make whatever it does good.

[dreman9999]

Locutus_of_BORG wrote...

I was speculating with friends about this very thing ever since the EC came out. ME3 was originally full of holes and loose ends and ended in too uncharacteristic a way for a ME game, the EC filled a few holes and unexpectedly added a fourth ending, so I figured it'd be awesome if every story DLC added something new and progressively less stupid to the ending sequence. I never expected BW to actually do this, but it would be wonderful if this was really what they'd been planning all along.

dreman9999 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
It's programed to find peace, select it, and impose it. It found that the reaper salution was the only way. That is still with in it's programing,.

It was programmed to mediate relations between organics and synthetics.
It then decided that since diplomacy is not permanent, an also not permanent "solution" was needed.
He then turned on his creators (not programmed), goo-ed them (not programmed), then turned them into a giant space squid (not programmed).

If it just stuck to it's programming, the Reapers would NOT exist.

He is programed to impose it salution. The open ended salution he is given opens him up to nearly any salution, including perserving organics.

For the 5 millionth time.

The Catalyst was created to oversee organic/synthetic relations and bring peace.
It was NOT created to prevent the extinction of organic life. The solution it came up with is a solution to the latter, not the former. IT CAME UP WITH A NEW DIRECTIVE BY ITSELF.

Oversee.
http://www.thefreedi...ary.com/oversee
1. To watch over and direct; supervise.
2. To subject to scrutiny; examine or inspect.

Overseers do impose.

They do, but the solution it came up with (protecting organics from synthetics by killing them with synthetics) made no sense, which is highly highly uncharacteristic of what a computer would come up with. This is made especially worse since Reapers bear minimal resemblance to the nature of the species they consume and so it's kind of an obvious lie to say that species are preserved in Reaper form.

 It' a different perspective on life.  It did not kill organics off. It made them into reapers. A new form of life.

[memorysquid]

The Angry One wrote...

memorysquid wrote...

Says who?  He could have enforced peace at any time by wiping out all organic life.  He didn't, presumably, for a reason - which he actually states in the ending sequence.

Says the fact that that is not peace, and that is not "overseeing relations".

Even if extermination did fit some twisted definition of peace... why not just do that then? Wipe out all life. Peace!
Why bother with the cycle? The cycle has nothing to do with the directive of peace.

You're quoting anything but your own headcanon here?  The Catalyst doesn't go into the minutiae of its own programming.  Who knows how his creator race specifically programmed him, other than insufficiently?  He gives Shep a brief overview of what he is up to.  That is all.

[Ticonderoga117]

Shadowvalker wrote...

An automated floorcleaner that have been given the directive to keep the floor clean but not given any ohter directive is in it's right to:

Wash the floor
Burn the floor

or what ever it takes to accomplish it's task....

Not when it's supposed to "preserve" the floor as well.
However, it still burns the floor anyway and keeps the ashes around in a jar.

[dreman9999]

th3warr1or wrote...

Shadowvalker wrote...

An automated floorcleaner that have been given the directive to keep the floor clean but not given any ohter directive is in it's right to:

Wash the floor
Burn the floor

or what ever it takes to accomplish it's task....

Yeah. But it doesn't automatically make whatever it does good.

A machine forced to do it's programing has no concept of right or wrong. It has no morals.

[Ticonderoga117]

dreman9999 wrote...
A machine forced to do it's programing has no concept of right or wrong. It has no morals.

Obviously he isn't "forced" to since he went off the rails and made his own plan up.

Modifié par Ticonderoga117, 08 août 2012 - 05:42 .

[dreman9999]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Shadowvalker wrote...

An automated floorcleaner that have been given the directive to keep the floor clean but not given any ohter directive is in it's right to:

Wash the floor
Burn the floor

or what ever it takes to accomplish it's task....

Not when it's supposed to "preserve" the floor as well.
However, it still burns the floor anyway and keeps the ashes around in a jar.

The case what the catalyst does is turn the floor into a differn form of a floor.
AKA, THE REAPERS ARE JUST ORGANICS IN A DIFFERENT FORM OF LIFE.

[AresKeith]

saracen16 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

did you really just say the Reapers were fighting in Self-defense when they've been doing thing for billions of years killing people and harvesting people and not expect them to fight back against the Reapers?

That's not what I said. I said that during the battle for Earth, they were defending themselves from the attack, and their defense was also offensive. The reason for this statement was to explain, simply, the impetus behind engaging the allied forces during the Catalyst conversation and the Crucible docking. I was not "apologizing" for their actions.

Stop making up straw-men.

yes you are, because they are going to Planets to harvest all advanced life, The Reapers weren't defending themselves they were gonna do it anyway. Your the one constantly making nonsense

[Memnon]

memorysquid wrote...

Stornskar wrote...

memorysquid wrote...

I don't recall that contract.  Yes, they screwed up the writing - let's keep that in mind though, it's just writing.

I don't think anyone will disagree with you - in fact, that's pretty much the primary, underlying point here is that the Catalyst (i.e. his writing) makes no sense. Yet there are those who argue that the writing is actually great, beyond our understanding, and that we're just too stupid to realize how symbolically intelligent it is

I "trust" the Catalyst, that being the subject of the thread, because rather than nitpicking apart the codex, I simply accept the obvious.  The writers intended him to be what he is portrayed as.  Not some evil genius IT mastermind.  I don't trust him to have stellar logic; I just trust him to be what the writers intended him to be.  His logic is fine.  What is possibly wrong is one premise he holds that is empirical, not logical.  Namely that synthetics will eventually wipe out organics.

You're touching on a few different things here - first is the metagaming aspect. I've argued that without metagame knowledge - writers' intent, knowing you're at the end of the game, etc - that there is no way you trust the Catalyst. You are the leader of the galaxy-wide defense effort, you have been introduced to the leader of your enemy, and HE presents YOU with three options, all of which KILL YOU.

Pre EC we had no choice but to trust the Catalyst, because the game wouldn't progress unless you made a choice - and you actually lost if you waited too long. Post EC, we were given the Refuse option, but by that time we all knew what the Catalyst was (for the most part), and how the game would end otherwise.

His logic is silly, but that's because his creators' logic was silly ... the reason I don't trust the Catalyst is because his creators were morons. No matter how you look at it, the Catalyst doesn't make sense, it's poor writing, and the only reason you trust him is because the writers tell you that you have to

Modifié par Stornskar, 08 août 2012 - 05:45 .

[Ticonderoga117]

dreman9999 wrote...
The case what the catalyst does is turn the floor into a differn form of a floor.
AKA, THE REAPERS ARE JUST ORGANICS IN A DIFFERENT FORM OF LIFE.

They are not organic.
They are a hybrid of organic and synthetic material that only represent who they formerly were in form only.

Thus, the analogy should actually be "Burns floor, and then uses the ashes to make charcoal."