1085 réponses à ce sujet

[TSA_383]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

TSA_383 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

 It' a different perspective on life.  It did not kill organics off. It made them into reapers. A new form of life.

hate to break it to you, but everything about them is dead

Not dead, "preserved".
If you created an AI and tasked it to make sure that there would be another war, how could it do that?

Well, it could put everyone into some form of stasis or kill them... There doesn't seem to be a way to guarantee that war will not occur without taking that sort of action.

Hate to break it to you, but being in Reaper form is NOT preservation.

Plus, the Catalyst could, you know, actually mediate, police. Things like that.

However, he just sticks in dark space for 50K years and leaves tech around that leads to the problem he tries to prevent.

It's like if I wanted to prevent war, but left a ton of guns lying around and then just left. Anyone can pick it up, learn how to use it, and go start a war. Am I supposed to act surprised that it happens? No! You stick by and actually do the job you were programmed for!

I was playing devil's advocate 
But you can see how it ends up coming to that conclusion. If it fuses organic and synthetic life into a singluarity every time the two meet, then it can prevent a war between organics and synthetics from starting...

[RiouHotaru]

I'm still waiting for an explanation of how he juiced his creators. He was created to solve the problem, and there's nothing that states he was given control of their industry to make that happen.

Really the above mentioned thing about the Catalyst going "Well dammnit..." is EXACTLY what would happen, shackled or not.

At no point does the Catalyst exert ACTIVE control over the Reapers (ME1 and 3 both demonstrate this), and he doesn't control the Citadel either (ME1 and 3 again).

So HOW did he turn them into Reaper Goo?

If, as has been suggested by this thread, the Leviathans goo'ed another race FIRST, then again, the real antagonist is the Catalyst's creators, as I've said. Since they stood by and allowed such a thing to happen purely so the process could be tested first, and THEN goo'ed themselves once it was refined.

Which makes them the galaxy's ultimate jerks.

Modifié par RiouHotaru, 08 août 2012 - 06:47 .

[Baronesa]

dreman9999 wrote...

Morality dictate law. So in the end Moraliy dictated murder.

Please enlight me on the morality on the laws stablishing how to create a society.

What is the morality behidn contract law? Just the principle "Pacta sundt servanda" is enough and it is independent of any sort of moral code.


Furthermore you have the problem of morality, since morality is not monolithic and there is no objective morality, there is no way to be able to choose which morality will be turned into law.

Modifié par Baronesa, 08 août 2012 - 06:48 .

[TSA_383]

RiouHotaru wrote...

I'm still waiting for an explanation of how he juiced his creators. He was created to solve the problem, and there's nothing that states he was given control of their industry to make that happen.

This has precedent in ME's Lore, look at what David was able to do at Project Overlord.

[dreman9999]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

TSA_383 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

 It' a different perspective on life.  It did not kill organics off. It made them into reapers. A new form of life.

hate to break it to you, but everything about them is dead

Not dead, "preserved".
If you created an AI and tasked it to make sure that there would be another war, how could it do that?

Well, it could put everyone into some form of stasis or kill them... There doesn't seem to be a way to guarantee that war will not occur without taking that sort of action.

Hate to break it to you, but being in Reaper form is NOT preservation.

Plus, the Catalyst could, you know, actually mediate, police. Things like that.

However, he just sticks in dark space for 50K years and leaves tech around that leads to the problem he tries to prevent.

It's like if I wanted to prevent war, but left a ton of guns lying around and then just left. Anyone can pick it up, learn how to use it, and go start a war. Am I supposed to act surprised that it happens? No! You stick by and actually do the job you were programmed for!

IT clear that what it did at first and that did not work.
And they are preseved.
 

[Wayning_Star]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Stornskar wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

If the catalyst shackled? Any quote about that?

No, none, absolutely not ... the argument of those who believe the Catalyst a victim of its programming argue this point to death, despite there being no mention of him being shackled. The fact that he murdered his creators tells us that if he was shackled, he's pretty much rogue now. In addition, when Shepard asks him if he is just an AI, his response is, "inasmuch as you are just an animal."

Exactly.  What we are trying to say is he isn't shackled and couldn't be and he is not some victim of strict programming.  He is the author of his own choices and has adapted his programming in some warped way that got really out of hand.  What some are asserting is that he is a victim and/or not an antagonist (2 separate, but related arguments/discussions).

He's deceptive and understands that.  He's causing war and chaos and knows that and understands what it is.  He is killing people and says he isn't.

He is programmed to achieve peace, he creates war.  He is to find order and stop chaos.  He creates chaos.  He is to save organics from synthetics by finding balance between the two.  He does this by sending overly powerful synthetics to kill organics.  And in case organics are not smart enough to advance on their own and become capable of creating synthetics that will probably kill them (what the kid believes), he seeds the galaxy with tech to make sure they will do so.

Dumbest AI ever.

you are convicting then lay the ground work for appeal..lol

evil but dumb.  wrong but acting out of ignorance of a better solution, innocent?

[Memnon]

RiouHotaru wrote...

RiptideX1090 wrote...

I'm willing to chalk that one up to poor writing. It can't be explained because there isn't an explanation beyond making the war assets seem to matter for something. Which is a gameplay issue. And the inability of the writers to bridge the gap between said gameplay and their inability to write a decent conclusion.

This again?  Just because it doesn't fit with your theory doesn't make it bad writing.  There's an easy explanation for why he only presents one or two choices on low EMS-endings (and only specific choices):

He's not the one who controls which options are available to Shepard.

What is the explanation for why EMS is tied to your RGB choice, then? Because I really can't figure out how Javelin Missile Launchers, Pothean Data Files, Black Market Artifacts, Alliance Frigate Agincourt, Alliance Cruiser Nairobi, urian 79th Flotilla, Asari Cruiser Nefrane, Interferometric Airway, Volus Dreadnought Kwulu, Turian Spec Op Team, Alliance Frigate Leipzig,  Shadow Broker Support Team, Serrice Guard, Alliance Reporter, Dr Michel, Terminus Fleet, Ex-Cerberus Launchers have an effect on whether or not I kill myself with a blue beam or a green beam

[dreman9999]

@Baronesa 
Ofcoruse Pacta sundt servanda is based in morality. It based on the morality of being fare. I have no problem with morality. I justunderstand it is the key motivator fro every thing we do. It also has many ways to be seen. People have different moralitis. No matter what every law is based on morality, even the neutral ones.

Modifié par dreman9999, 08 août 2012 - 06:51 .

[AresKeith]

RiouHotaru wrote...

I'm still waiting for an explanation of how he juiced his creators. He was created to solve the problem, and there's nothing that states he was given control of their industry to make that happen.

Really the above mentioned thing about the Catalyst going "Well dammnit..." is EXACTLY what would happen, shackled or not.

At no point does the Catalyst exert ACTIVE control over the Reapers (ME1 and 3 both demonstrate this), and he doesn't control the Citadel either (ME1 and 3 again).

So HOW did he turn them into Reaper Goo?

If, as has been suggested by this thread, the Leviathans goo'ed another race FIRST, then again, the real antagonist is the Catalyst's creators, as I've said. Since they stood by and allowed such a thing to happen purely so the process could be tested first, and THEN goo'ed themselves once it was refined.

Which makes them the galaxy's ultimate jerks.

the Catalyst clearly states that he controls the Reapers and It embodies the collective consciousness and memories of the Reapers, and that he turned them into the First Reaper against their will. Whats not to understand about that.

[RiouHotaru]

TSA_383 wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

I'm still waiting for an explanation of how he juiced his creators. He was created to solve the problem, and there's nothing that states he was given control of their industry to make that happen.

This has precedent in ME's Lore, look at what David was able to do at Project Overlord.

That was because David was merged with a VI which specifically had control.  And even then, David could be blocked.
He had to use the uplink to try and transfer himself to the Normandy because he couldn't do ANYTHING otherwise. 

Also, David was an autistic human being, not a programmable computer.  It's not really a fair or accurate comparison.

[Ticonderoga117]

TSA_383 wrote...
Know what?
I bet this all happened because somebody forgot to close a bracket in the code somewhere.
That's always the problem.

Wouldn't that make them not compile though?

More like they didn't uncomment those lines after they finished that function. 

dreman9999 wrote...
IT clear that what it did at first and that did not work.
And they are preseved.

It did work, it just wasn't permanent. Which nothing is.
And no they aren't. He's talking out of his glowing behind.

[dreman9999]

Stornskar wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

RiptideX1090 wrote...

I'm willing to chalk that one up to poor writing. It can't be explained because there isn't an explanation beyond making the war assets seem to matter for something. Which is a gameplay issue. And the inability of the writers to bridge the gap between said gameplay and their inability to write a decent conclusion.

This again?  Just because it doesn't fit with your theory doesn't make it bad writing.  There's an easy explanation for why he only presents one or two choices on low EMS-endings (and only specific choices):

He's not the one who controls which options are available to Shepard.

What is the explanation for why EMS is tied to your RGB choice, then? Because I really can't figure out how Javelin Missile Launchers, Pothean Data Files, Black Market Artifacts, Alliance Frigate Agincourt, Alliance Cruiser Nairobi, urian 79th Flotilla, Asari Cruiser Nefrane, Interferometric Airway, Volus Dreadnought Kwulu, Turian Spec Op Team, Alliance Frigate Leipzig,  Shadow Broker Support Team, Serrice Guard, Alliance Reporter, Dr Michel, Terminus Fleet, Ex-Cerberus Launchers have an effect on whether or not I kill myself with a blue beam or a green beam

EMS controls the condition the catalyst is at the end of the game. The more damage itis at the end of the game, the less it does.

[RiouHotaru]

Stornskar wrote...

What is the explanation for why EMS is tied to your RGB choice, then? Because I really can't figure out how Javelin Missile Launchers, Pothean Data Files, Black Market Artifacts, Alliance Frigate Agincourt, Alliance Cruiser Nairobi, urian 79th Flotilla, Asari Cruiser Nefrane, Interferometric Airway, Volus Dreadnought Kwulu, Turian Spec Op Team, Alliance Frigate Leipzig,  Shadow Broker Support Team, Serrice Guard, Alliance Reporter, Dr Michel, Terminus Fleet, Ex-Cerberus Launchers have an effect on whether or not I kill myself with a blue beam or a green beam

Because EMS indicates an overall level of preparation in getting ready.  Which includes not only the state of the fleet, but the state of the Crucible.

[Ticonderoga117]

RiouHotaru wrote...

TSA_383 wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

I'm still waiting for an explanation of how he juiced his creators. He was created to solve the problem, and there's nothing that states he was given control of their industry to make that happen.

This has precedent in ME's Lore, look at what David was able to do at Project Overlord.

That was because David was merged with a VI which specifically had control.  And even then, David could be blocked.
He had to use the uplink to try and transfer himself to the Normandy because he couldn't do ANYTHING otherwise. 

Also, David was an autistic human being, not a programmable computer.  It's not really a fair or accurate comparison.

I think he was given control of some forces.
Doesn't he mention something about proto-Reapers?
Besides, he was probably thier most powerful AI, why couldn't he just hijack stuff ala Skynet?

[dreman9999]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

TSA_383 wrote...
Know what?
I bet this all happened because somebody forgot to close a bracket in the code somewhere.
That's always the problem.

Wouldn't that make them not compile though?

More like they didn't uncomment those lines after they finished that function. 

dreman9999 wrote...
IT clear that what it did at first and that did not work.
And they are preseved.

It did work, it just wasn't permanent. Which nothing is.
And no they aren't. He's talking out of his glowing behind.

The catalyst is looking for a permanent salution. If it stoped working it means it did not work.
And they are perseverd. It's a concept of perspective. Does beign alive mean you body is alive, or your persona is still alive? 
If it mean we are alive as long as our bodies are still alive, then there should not be any defination for brain death in excicstance.

Modifié par dreman9999, 08 août 2012 - 06:59 .

[RiouHotaru]

AresKeith wrote...

the Catalyst clearly states that he controls the Reapers and It embodies the collective consciousness and memories of the Reapers, and that he turned them into the First Reaper against their will. Whats not to understand about that.

Again, this argument doesn't hurt the Catalyst.  How did he make them into the first Reaper anyway?  Again, as has been demonstrated, the most he could do was tell them what the solution was.  He didn't have any power to enforce it.  Also, while he says "control", there's every indication his level of control is passive.  Again, ME1, 2, AND 3 demonstrate this.

Which is why I think we should wait for Leviathan.  I suspect there was a prototype Reaper made to test the process, which again, makes the Catalyst's creators the worst bad-guys by far in the ME-verse.

[Wayning_Star]

Stornskar wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

RiptideX1090 wrote...

I'm willing to chalk that one up to poor writing. It can't be explained because there isn't an explanation beyond making the war assets seem to matter for something. Which is a gameplay issue. And the inability of the writers to bridge the gap between said gameplay and their inability to write a decent conclusion.

This again?  Just because it doesn't fit with your theory doesn't make it bad writing.  There's an easy explanation for why he only presents one or two choices on low EMS-endings (and only specific choices):

He's not the one who controls which options are available to Shepard.

What is the explanation for why EMS is tied to your RGB choice, then? Because I really can't figure out how Javelin Missile Launchers, Pothean Data Files, Black Market Artifacts, Alliance Frigate Agincourt, Alliance Cruiser Nairobi, urian 79th Flotilla, Asari Cruiser Nefrane, Interferometric Airway, Volus Dreadnought Kwulu, Turian Spec Op Team, Alliance Frigate Leipzig,  Shadow Broker Support Team, Serrice Guard, Alliance Reporter, Dr Michel, Terminus Fleet, Ex-Cerberus Launchers have an effect on whether or not I kill myself with a blue beam or a green beam

thats an excellent point, don't know if its relevant to the OP, but still a potent query. The only thing all the stuff in the game represents is slightly different avenues to the aquired endgame. But doesn't effect the outcome of the choices, or even taylor them after you acheive all four. One playthrough, I only got two choices, then after the EC, I got all four with the same stuff I had before. Kind of strange that. 

Really tho, these points don't address your posters question,as the options there aren't to do with what your post provides..unfortunately.. he's talking about the crucible options, I think?

[Memnon]

RiouHotaru wrote...

Stornskar wrote...

What is the explanation for why EMS is tied to your RGB choice, then? Because I really can't figure out how Javelin Missile Launchers, Pothean Data Files, Black Market Artifacts, Alliance Frigate Agincourt, Alliance Cruiser Nairobi, urian 79th Flotilla, Asari Cruiser Nefrane, Interferometric Airway, Volus Dreadnought Kwulu, Turian Spec Op Team, Alliance Frigate Leipzig,  Shadow Broker Support Team, Serrice Guard, Alliance Reporter, Dr Michel, Terminus Fleet, Ex-Cerberus Launchers have an effect on whether or not I kill myself with a blue beam or a green beam

Because EMS indicates an overall level of preparation in getting ready.  Which includes not only the state of the fleet, but the state of the Crucible.

... and you find this to be an acceptable explanation?

[RiouHotaru]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

I think he was given control of some forces.
Doesn't he mention something about proto-Reapers?
Besides, he was probably thier most powerful AI, why couldn't he just hijack stuff ala Skynet?

Well, I suspect Leviathan will reveal the creation of a Proto-Reaper.

That aside, Skynet is a terrible example for a few reasons (not even starting with the fact AIs don't work that way) Skynet was connected to military systems to begin with.

So far, at least according to the Catalyst's infodump, he wasn't designed to do anything but be a mediator.

[dreman9999]

Stornskar wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

Stornskar wrote...

What is the explanation for why EMS is tied to your RGB choice, then? Because I really can't figure out how Javelin Missile Launchers, Pothean Data Files, Black Market Artifacts, Alliance Frigate Agincourt, Alliance Cruiser Nairobi, urian 79th Flotilla, Asari Cruiser Nefrane, Interferometric Airway, Volus Dreadnought Kwulu, Turian Spec Op Team, Alliance Frigate Leipzig,  Shadow Broker Support Team, Serrice Guard, Alliance Reporter, Dr Michel, Terminus Fleet, Ex-Cerberus Launchers have an effect on whether or not I kill myself with a blue beam or a green beam

Because EMS indicates an overall level of preparation in getting ready.  Which includes not only the state of the fleet, but the state of the Crucible.

... and you find this to be an acceptable explanation?

Yes, everything that happens in the end of the game is controled by the curcible.  That was the entire point.

[RiouHotaru]

Stornskar wrote...

... and you find this to be an acceptable explanation?

Yes, because if you rush through the game, you wind up with a bare minimum of resources, which means that neither the Fleet or the Crucible are completely ready for action, resulting in a bad ending.

[comrade gando]

@dreman

Yeah that vid doesnt explain ****. Oh wait, its the exact same catalyst scene that makes no sense. You dont know anything all you're doing is making random assumptions from the catalysts lore breaking self contradictions and proclaiming it as fact. Try again.

[Wayning_Star]

RiouHotaru wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

the Catalyst clearly states that he controls the Reapers and It embodies the collective consciousness and memories of the Reapers, and that he turned them into the First Reaper against their will. Whats not to understand about that.

Again, this argument doesn't hurt the Catalyst.  How did he make them into the first Reaper anyway?  Again, as has been demonstrated, the most he could do was tell them what the solution was.  He didn't have any power to enforce it.  Also, while he says "control", there's every indication his level of control is passive.  Again, ME1, 2, AND 3 demonstrate this.

Which is why I think we should wait for Leviathan.  I suspect there was a prototype Reaper made to test the process, which again, makes the Catalyst's creators the worst bad-guys by far in the ME-verse.

I don't think Laviathan is a reaper, or proto reaper myself...it just looks like one..Yikes!!

[AresKeith]

RiouHotaru wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

the Catalyst clearly states that he controls the Reapers and It embodies the collective consciousness and memories of the Reapers, and that he turned them into the First Reaper against their will. Whats not to understand about that.

Again, this argument doesn't hurt the Catalyst.  How did he make them into the first Reaper anyway?  Again, as has been demonstrated, the most he could do was tell them what the solution was.  He didn't have any power to enforce it.  Also, while he says "control", there's every indication his level of control is passive.  Again, ME1, 2, AND 3 demonstrate this.

Which is why I think we should wait for Leviathan.  I suspect there was a prototype Reaper made to test the process, which again, makes the Catalyst's creators the worst bad-guys by far in the ME-verse.

"collective consciousness" according to Bioware in ME3 everything the Reapers said came from him. And my guess is that it took control over the Synthetic in that cycle and made them turn his creators into the Reaper along with them

[dreman9999]

comrade gando wrote...

@dreman

Yeah that vid doesnt explain ****. Oh wait, its the exact same catalyst scene that makes no sense. You dont know anything all you're doing is making random assumptions from the catalysts lore breaking self contradictions and proclaiming it as fact. Try again.

What is so hard to understand out of"I was creater to oversee peace relations  with organic  and synthetics."

Do you need someone to hold your hand and go over the measing of every word stated byt he catalyst?

Modifié par dreman9999, 08 août 2012 - 07:05 .