1085 réponses à ce sujet

[Memnon]

RiouHotaru wrote...

Stornskar wrote...

... and you find this to be an acceptable explanation?

Yes, because if you rush through the game, you wind up with a bare minimum of resources, which means that neither the Fleet or the Crucible are completely ready for action, resulting in a bad ending.

Just to be clear, you are saying that war assets such as special ops teams, ground forces, and military hardware control whether the Crucible can fire a green beam, red beam, or blue beam. So what ... green and blue require more power from the space battery? Sorry, this makes zero sense to me

Modifié par Stornskar, 08 août 2012 - 07:07 .

[TSA_383]

dreman9999 wrote...

Stornskar wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

Stornskar wrote...

What is the explanation for why EMS is tied to your RGB choice, then? Because I really can't figure out how Javelin Missile Launchers, Pothean Data Files, Black Market Artifacts, Alliance Frigate Agincourt, Alliance Cruiser Nairobi, urian 79th Flotilla, Asari Cruiser Nefrane, Interferometric Airway, Volus Dreadnought Kwulu, Turian Spec Op Team, Alliance Frigate Leipzig,  Shadow Broker Support Team, Serrice Guard, Alliance Reporter, Dr Michel, Terminus Fleet, Ex-Cerberus Launchers have an effect on whether or not I kill myself with a blue beam or a green beam

Because EMS indicates an overall level of preparation in getting ready.  Which includes not only the state of the fleet, but the state of the Crucible.

... and you find this to be an acceptable explanation?

Yes, everything that happens in the end of the game is controled by the curcible.  That was the entire point.

I.... disagree 

[3DandBeyond]

dreman9999 wrote...

EMS controls the condition the catalyst is at the end of the game. The more damage itis at the end of the game, the less it does.

Uh what?  How is the catalyst damaged?  If you mean because reapers are, where does it say that?  The crucible can be damaged because the ineffective pew pew shooters in space can't hit the broad side of a reaper, but I never yet heard the catalyst scream "OUCH!"


The crucible is a power source.  I had a bad battery in my a smoke alarm and it went off for no reason.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 08 août 2012 - 07:06 .

[Wayning_Star]

RiouHotaru wrote...

Stornskar wrote...

... and you find this to be an acceptable explanation?

Yes, because if you rush through the game, you wind up with a bare minimum of resources, which means that neither the Fleet or the Crucible are completely ready for action, resulting in a bad ending.

yeah, I missed a few crucible parts and am still regretting it..lol The game seems to rely on our ability to find stuff for the endgame, and the crucible to function more efficiently, heck maybe the thing might even blow up if it's not assemble correctly, certainly not do its intended purpose, whatever that is?

[KNotW]

There is no way the catalyst was shackled when it tried to reaperize its creators. Basic AI shackling would have prevented that by forcing the catalyst to obey its creators. When it presented that solution its creators would have just been able to tell it no and it would have stopped. Because we're told that its creators disagreed with becoming the first reaper but it did it anyway it couldn't have been shackled by a species competent enough to create the technology that the reapers are based off.

[Wayning_Star]

3DandBeyond wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

EMS controls the condition the catalyst is at the end of the game. The more damage itis at the end of the game, the less it does.

Uh what?  How is the catalyst damaged?  If you mean because reapers are, where does it say that?  The crucible can be damaged because the ineffective pew pew shooters in space can't hit the broad side of a reaper, but I never yet heard the catalyst scream "OUCH!"

catalyst is the strong silent prototype..heheh

[dreman9999]

AresKeith wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

the Catalyst clearly states that he controls the Reapers and It embodies the collective consciousness and memories of the Reapers, and that he turned them into the First Reaper against their will. Whats not to understand about that.

Again, this argument doesn't hurt the Catalyst.  How did he make them into the first Reaper anyway?  Again, as has been demonstrated, the most he could do was tell them what the solution was.  He didn't have any power to enforce it.  Also, while he says "control", there's every indication his level of control is passive.  Again, ME1, 2, AND 3 demonstrate this.

Which is why I think we should wait for Leviathan.  I suspect there was a prototype Reaper made to test the process, which again, makes the Catalyst's creators the worst bad-guys by far in the ME-verse.

"collective consciousness" according to Bioware in ME3 everything the Reapers said came from him. And my guess is that it took control over the Synthetic in that cycle and made them turn his creators into the Reaper along with them

No it means this...
"One ship, one will, many minds...Like the Geth."
 

[dreman9999]

3DandBeyond wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

EMS controls the condition the catalyst is at the end of the game. The more damage itis at the end of the game, the less it does.

Uh what?  How is the catalyst damaged?  If you mean because reapers are, where does it say that?  The crucible can be damaged because the ineffective pew pew shooters in space can't hit the broad side of a reaper, but I never yet heard the catalyst scream "OUCH!"


The crucible is a power source.  I had a bad battery in my a smoke alarm and it went off for no reason.

Sorry. I meant crucible.

[AxStapleton]

Stornskar wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

Stornskar wrote...

... and you find this to be an acceptable explanation?

Yes, because if you rush through the game, you wind up with a bare minimum of resources, which means that neither the Fleet or the Crucible are completely ready for action, resulting in a bad ending.

Just to be clear, you are saying that war assets such as special ops teams, ground forces, and military hardware control whether the Crucible can fire a green beam, war beam, or blue beam. So what ... green and blue require more power from the space battery? Sorry, this makes zero sense to me

I have to agree with Stornskar. There is no way that an army of Krogan will have anything barely related to protecting the Crucible while it is getting attacked by the Reapers before docking.

Modifié par AxStapleton, 08 août 2012 - 07:08 .

[dreman9999]

KNotW wrote...

There is no way the catalyst was shackled when it tried to reaperize its creators. Basic AI shackling would have prevented that by forcing the catalyst to obey its creators. When it presented that solution its creators would have just been able to tell it no and it would have stopped. Because we're told that its creators disagreed with becoming the first reaper but it did it anyway it couldn't have been shackled by a species competent enough to create the technology that the reapers are based off.

Read this 
http://en.wikipedia....eroth_Law_added.
Then come back. Basic shacles would not stop a highly advance AI. It's a concept of definations that allowed the catalyst to opose it's creators.

Modifié par dreman9999, 08 août 2012 - 07:09 .

[Ticonderoga117]

dreman9999 wrote...
The catalyst is looking for a permanent salution. If it stoped working it means it did not work.
And they are perseverd. It's a concept of perspective. Does beign alive mean you body is alive, or your persona is still alive? 
If it mean we are alive as long as our bodies are still alive, then there should not be any defination for brain death in excicstance.

Nothing is permanent, thus he should've just killed all life and destroy all possible biospheres.

And for the being alive part, niether is preserved in Reaperization.
Body- Well duh.
Mind- Can you melt down the brain, form it into something new, and expect the same result? You can't do this with BlueBoxes, so what makes you think a mind can?

He's talking out of his behind.

RiouHotaru wrote...
Well, I suspect Leviathan will reveal the creation of a Proto-Reaper.

That
aside, Skynet is a terrible example for a few reasons (not even
starting with the fact AIs don't work that way) Skynet was connected to
military systems to begin with.

So far, at least according to the Catalyst's infodump, he wasn't designed to do anything but be a mediator.

Well he changed that part of his programming, so I'm not surprised he went all the way like he did.

[Vikxx86]

Taboo-XX wrote...

FALLACIES. FALLACIES.

I've been saying this for months.

He doesn't lie, he truly has no concept of what the **** he's doing.

Well said Sir! I salute you... 

[Wayning_Star]

AxStapleton wrote...

Stornskar wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

Stornskar wrote...

... and you find this to be an acceptable explanation?

Yes, because if you rush through the game, you wind up with a bare minimum of resources, which means that neither the Fleet or the Crucible are completely ready for action, resulting in a bad ending.

Just to be clear, you are saying that war assets such as special ops teams, ground forces, and military hardware control whether the Crucible can fire a green beam, war beam, or blue beam. So what ... green and blue require more power from the space battery? Sorry, this makes zero sense to me

I have to agree with Stornskar. There is no way that an army of Krogan will have anything barely related to protecting the Crucible while it is getting attacked by the Reapers before docking.

distraction is the only asset that ground forces may contribute, keep reapers on the ground was the game impression I got there...

[dreman9999]

AxStapleton wrote...

Stornskar wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

Stornskar wrote...

... and you find this to be an acceptable explanation?

Yes, because if you rush through the game, you wind up with a bare minimum of resources, which means that neither the Fleet or the Crucible are completely ready for action, resulting in a bad ending.

Just to be clear, you are saying that war assets such as special ops teams, ground forces, and military hardware control whether the Crucible can fire a green beam, war beam, or blue beam. So what ... green and blue require more power from the space battery? Sorry, this makes zero sense to me

I have to agree with Stornskar. There is no way that an army of Krogan will have anything barely related to protecting the Crucible while it is getting attacked by the Reapers before docking.

EMS includes ships as well as ground forces. Having more grond forces means you have people left over to fly your ships.

Modifié par dreman9999, 08 août 2012 - 07:18 .

[WhiteKnyght]

TSA_383 wrote...

Edit:
These files were apparently first posted by  "ULT1M4T3xPL" so salute to that guy.

So, before you start reading, if you don't want some of the catalyst conversation changes in Leviathan spoiled, go do something else. Seriously. Stop reading.

Moving on...

This is the most recent leak we have of the updated "choice sequence" dialogue:

http://pastebin.com/R52YGPek 

If you've not read the other bits from the Leviathan script it won't make a lot of sense, some time ago I summed up the plot as such:

TSA_383 wrote...
The mission involves you investigating some asteroid mining colony, the miners turn out to be indoctrinated in a very strange way  - no mental degradation but they don't remember what happened after you free them by destroying some "monument". You end up on an epic quest to look for Leviathan, and you delve into its underwater realm, where you discover that Leviathan is the very first "unsuccessful" reaper. If you remember from the EC, the catalyst says something about attempting synthesis with unwilling organics - Leviathan was the result, it is a rogue reaper. So the leviathans created the catalyst AI and it turned on them, and after it could not control them it refined its techniques and created the first successful reaper - Harbinger.
You can confront the Catalyst in the decision chamber about the Leviathans, which has as yet unseen consequences [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/wink.png[/smilie]

 

Which seems to be roughly confirmed by these new sections of choice sequence dialogue.

To pick a few particularly relevant sections:

 <data>A species that recognized the conflict that constantly arose between synthetics and organics.</data>
  </string>
- <string>
  <id>748458</id>
  <position>25</position>
  <data>I calculated. I planned. I evolved new ways to prevent and mitigate the conflict. But in the end, only one solution that allowed organics and synthetics to coexist.</data>
  </string>
- <string>
  <id>748459</id>
  <position>26</position>
  <data>Correct again. It was they who first recognize the conflict that persists between synthetics and organics. It was they who sought the solution.</data>
  </string>
- <string>
  <id>748460</id>
  <position>27</position>
  <data>I was created to oversee the relations between synthetic and organic life.</data>
  </string>
- <string>
  <id>748461</id>
  <position>28</position>
  <data>Even still, our efforts ended in conflict. So a new solution was required.</data>

 <data>Yes and no. The Reapers are a synthetic representation of the ones who created us.</data>
  </string>
- <string>
  <id>748464</id>
  <position>31</position>
  <data>And they became the first to be harvested. Though they fought us... it was the only solution.</data>
  </string>
- <string>
  <id>748465</id>
  <position>32</position>
  <data>It is the only solution that maintains the balance and the directive.</data>

 <data>I was designed to control synthetics, and protect and preserve organic life.</data>
  </string>
- <string>
  <id>748486</id>
  <position>53</position>
  <data>To this day, it remains my primary purpose.</data>
  </string>
- <string>
  <id>748487</id>
  <position>54</position>
  <data>We required their harvesting to create the first Reaper. To enforce and enact on the solution I created.</data>
  </string>
- <string>
  <id>748488</id>
  <position>55</position>
  <data>The first Reaper. In this cycle, amongst your kind, it is known as Harbinger.</data>

 <data>We have tried... a similar solution in the past. Several cycles ago.</data>
  </string>
- <string>
  <id>748545</id>
  <position>112</position>
  <data>But it has always failed.</data>
  </string>
- <string>
  <id>748546</id>
  <position>113</position>
  <data>Because the organics have been unwilling. It is not something that can be... forced.</data>
  </string>
- <string>
  <id>748547</id>
  <position>114</position>
  <data>You must choose it. For all of us.</data>

 

Could it really be made any more clear, given that we're going to meet a rogue reaper that was forced into synthesis, what that option represents, and the fact that the catalyst is attempting to force you down that path?

Synthesis works though. All practices require trial and error. Leviathan is the trial, and the error came because the concept was crude and unrefined, and because the recipient was unwilling.

Old attempt: Melting down organics and merging them with technology in a new form. - Failed.

New attempt: Utilizing energy to rewrite the genetic structure of all organic and synthetic life at the molecular level. - Success

[Ticonderoga117]

dreman9999 wrote...
Yes, everything that happens in the end of the game is controled by the curcible.  That was the entire point.

How can you control something you don't know is there?
Answer: You can't.

[dreman9999]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
The catalyst is looking for a permanent salution. If it stoped working it means it did not work.
And they are perseverd. It's a concept of perspective. Does beign alive mean you body is alive, or your persona is still alive? 
If it mean we are alive as long as our bodies are still alive, then there should not be any defination for brain death in excicstance.

Nothing is permanent, thus he should've just killed all life and destroy all possible biospheres.

And for the being alive part, niether is preserved in Reaperization.
Body- Well duh.
Mind- Can you melt down the brain, form it into something new, and expect the same result? You can't do this with BlueBoxes, so what makes you think a mind can?

He's talking out of his behind.

RiouHotaru wrote...
Well, I suspect Leviathan will reveal the creation of a Proto-Reaper.

That
aside, Skynet is a terrible example for a few reasons (not even
starting with the fact AIs don't work that way) Skynet was connected to
military systems to begin with.

So far, at least according to the Catalyst's infodump, he wasn't designed to do anything but be a mediator.

Well he changed that part of his programming, so I'm not surprised he went all the way like he did.

That i not how a shackled AI or machine thinks. It only looks to solve the problem given to him...His programing. He is looking for an absolute because his programing demands it.
And he was design to be an overseer. Overseers can impose.

[Memnon]

dreman9999 wrote...

AxStapleton wrote...

Stornskar wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

Stornskar wrote...

... and you find this to be an acceptable explanation?

Yes, because if you rush through the game, you wind up with a bare minimum of resources, which means that neither the Fleet or the Crucible are completely ready for action, resulting in a bad ending.

Just to be clear, you are saying that war assets such as special ops teams, ground forces, and military hardware control whether the Crucible can fire a green beam, war beam, or blue beam. So what ... green and blue require more power from the space battery? Sorry, this makes zero sense to me

I have to agree with Stornskar. There is no way that an army of Krogan will have anything barely related to protecting the Crucible while it is getting attacked by the Reapers before docking.

EMS includes ships as well as round forces. Having more graond forces means you have people left over to fly your ships.

WHAT?????

[Wayning_Star]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
The catalyst is looking for a permanent salution. If it stoped working it means it did not work.
And they are perseverd. It's a concept of perspective. Does beign alive mean you body is alive, or your persona is still alive? 
If it mean we are alive as long as our bodies are still alive, then there should not be any defination for brain death in excicstance.

Nothing is permanent, thus he should've just killed all life and destroy all possible biospheres.

And for the being alive part, niether is preserved in Reaperization.
Body- Well duh.
Mind- Can you melt down the brain, form it into something new, and expect the same result? You can't do this with BlueBoxes, so what makes you think a mind can?

He's talking out of his behind.

RiouHotaru wrote...
Well, I suspect Leviathan will reveal the creation of a Proto-Reaper.

That
aside, Skynet is a terrible example for a few reasons (not even
starting with the fact AIs don't work that way) Skynet was connected to
military systems to begin with.

So far, at least according to the Catalyst's infodump, he wasn't designed to do anything but be a mediator.

Well he changed that part of his programming, so I'm not surprised he went all the way like he did.

that's what makes me think it crashed then woke up like EDI did on the moon..but with a different core program to muck up the system?

[dreman9999]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
Yes, everything that happens in the end of the game is controled by the curcible.  That was the entire point.

How can you control something you don't know is there?
Answer: You can't.

*Points to the curcible.
We are controling that. It's not a casue of not know what we are controling. We are just preping so we can take on anything we have to face.

[AxStapleton]

dreman9999 wrote...

AxStapleton wrote...

Stornskar wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

Stornskar wrote...

... and you find this to be an acceptable explanation?

Yes, because if you rush through the game, you wind up with a bare minimum of resources, which means that neither the Fleet or the Crucible are completely ready for action, resulting in a bad ending.

Just to be clear, you are saying that war assets such as special ops teams, ground forces, and military hardware control whether the Crucible can fire a green beam, war beam, or blue beam. So what ... green and blue require more power from the space battery? Sorry, this makes zero sense to me

I have to agree with Stornskar. There is no way that an army of Krogan will have anything barely related to protecting the Crucible while it is getting attacked by the Reapers before docking.

EMS includes ships as well as round forces. Having more graond forces means you have people left over to fly your ships.

Sorry, but that's a fairly weak explanation for Krogan who don't even have their own ships and have had to hitchhike on the ships of the other races.

[dreman9999]

Stornskar wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

AxStapleton wrote...

Stornskar wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

Stornskar wrote...

... and you find this to be an acceptable explanation?

Yes, because if you rush through the game, you wind up with a bare minimum of resources, which means that neither the Fleet or the Crucible are completely ready for action, resulting in a bad ending.

Just to be clear, you are saying that war assets such as special ops teams, ground forces, and military hardware control whether the Crucible can fire a green beam, war beam, or blue beam. So what ... green and blue require more power from the space battery? Sorry, this makes zero sense to me

I have to agree with Stornskar. There is no way that an army of Krogan will have anything barely related to protecting the Crucible while it is getting attacked by the Reapers before docking.

EMS includes ships as well as round forces. Having more graond forces means you have people left over to fly your ships.

WHAT?????

EMS. inculdes. Ships. as. well. It's not just ground forces.

[dreman9999]

AxStapleton wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

AxStapleton wrote...

Stornskar wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

Stornskar wrote...

... and you find this to be an acceptable explanation?

Yes, because if you rush through the game, you wind up with a bare minimum of resources, which means that neither the Fleet or the Crucible are completely ready for action, resulting in a bad ending.

Just to be clear, you are saying that war assets such as special ops teams, ground forces, and military hardware control whether the Crucible can fire a green beam, war beam, or blue beam. So what ... green and blue require more power from the space battery? Sorry, this makes zero sense to me

I have to agree with Stornskar. There is no way that an army of Krogan will have anything barely related to protecting the Crucible while it is getting attacked by the Reapers before docking.

EMS includes ships as well as round forces. Having more graond forces means you have people left over to fly your ships.

Sorry, but that's a fairly weak explanation for Krogan who don't even have their own ships and have had to hitchhike on the ships of the other races.

You ems is not just the krogan. It's mostly fleets.  The concept is best to have it and not need it then the need it and not have it.
Wedon't no if a ground war is need to take back earth, but we a prept just in case.

Modifié par dreman9999, 08 août 2012 - 07:19 .

[AxStapleton]

What I'm saying is that ground forces shouldn't really count towards anything on the EMS because, in the end, its about how many ships you have, not how many ground troops you have. Shepard gets to the Citadel regardless.

Modifié par AxStapleton, 08 août 2012 - 07:22 .

[Wayning_Star]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

TSA_383 wrote...

Edit:
These files were apparently first posted by  "ULT1M4T3xPL" so salute to that guy.

So, before you start reading, if you don't want some of the catalyst conversation changes in Leviathan spoiled, go do something else. Seriously. Stop reading.

Moving on...

This is the most recent leak we have of the updated "choice sequence" dialogue:

http://pastebin.com/R52YGPek 

If you've not read the other bits from the Leviathan script it won't make a lot of sense, some time ago I summed up the plot as such:

TSA_383 wrote...
The mission involves you investigating some asteroid mining colony, the miners turn out to be indoctrinated in a very strange way  - no mental degradation but they don't remember what happened after you free them by destroying some "monument". You end up on an epic quest to look for Leviathan, and you delve into its underwater realm, where you discover that Leviathan is the very first "unsuccessful" reaper. If you remember from the EC, the catalyst says something about attempting synthesis with unwilling organics - Leviathan was the result, it is a rogue reaper. So the leviathans created the catalyst AI and it turned on them, and after it could not control them it refined its techniques and created the first successful reaper - Harbinger.
You can confront the Catalyst in the decision chamber about the Leviathans, which has as yet unseen consequences 

 

Which seems to be roughly confirmed by these new sections of choice sequence dialogue.

To pick a few particularly relevant sections:

 <data>A species that recognized the conflict that constantly arose between synthetics and organics.</data>
  </string>
- <string>
  <id>748458</id>
  <position>25</position>
  <data>I calculated. I planned. I evolved new ways to prevent and mitigate the conflict. But in the end, only one solution that allowed organics and synthetics to coexist.</data>
  </string>
- <string>
  <id>748459</id>
  <position>26</position>
  <data>Correct again. It was they who first recognize the conflict that persists between synthetics and organics. It was they who sought the solution.</data>
  </string>
- <string>
  <id>748460</id>
  <position>27</position>
  <data>I was created to oversee the relations between synthetic and organic life.</data>
  </string>
- <string>
  <id>748461</id>
  <position>28</position>
  <data>Even still, our efforts ended in conflict. So a new solution was required.</data>

 <data>Yes and no. The Reapers are a synthetic representation of the ones who created us.</data>
  </string>
- <string>
  <id>748464</id>
  <position>31</position>
  <data>And they became the first to be harvested. Though they fought us... it was the only solution.</data>
  </string>
- <string>
  <id>748465</id>
  <position>32</position>
  <data>It is the only solution that maintains the balance and the directive.</data>

 <data>I was designed to control synthetics, and protect and preserve organic life.</data>
  </string>
- <string>
  <id>748486</id>
  <position>53</position>
  <data>To this day, it remains my primary purpose.</data>
  </string>
- <string>
  <id>748487</id>
  <position>54</position>
  <data>We required their harvesting to create the first Reaper. To enforce and enact on the solution I created.</data>
  </string>
- <string>
  <id>748488</id>
  <position>55</position>
  <data>The first Reaper. In this cycle, amongst your kind, it is known as Harbinger.</data>

 <data>We have tried... a similar solution in the past. Several cycles ago.</data>
  </string>
- <string>
  <id>748545</id>
  <position>112</position>
  <data>But it has always failed.</data>
  </string>
- <string>
  <id>748546</id>
  <position>113</position>
  <data>Because the organics have been unwilling. It is not something that can be... forced.</data>
  </string>
- <string>
  <id>748547</id>
  <position>114</position>
  <data>You must choose it. For all of us.</data>

 

Could it really be made any more clear, given that we're going to meet a rogue reaper that was forced into synthesis, what that option represents, and the fact that the catalyst is attempting to force you down that path?

Synthesis works though. All practices require trial and error. Leviathan is the trial, and the error came because the concept was crude and unrefined, and because the recipient was unwilling.

Old attempt: Melting down organics and merging them with technology in a new form. - Failed.

New attempt: Utilizing energy to rewrite the genetic structure of all organic and synthetic life at the molecular level. - Success

forced into reaperdom, not synthesis. I think they're talking about the best attempt and figurative success at harvesting,not attempted synthesis, I think that's wrought from the proto reaper human construct on the collector vessel. Human organic codes are not of the original creators, so it didn't work all that well is my headcanon.

I don't think synthesis is utilized to construct reapers. That is more like just conversion and assembly, done by the keepers. I think the proto human reaper was assembled by the collector race.