1085 réponses à ce sujet

[comrade gando]

dreman9999 wrote...

comrade gando wrote...

@dreman

Yeah that vid doesnt explain ****. Oh wait, its the exact same catalyst scene that makes no sense. You dont know anything all you're doing is making random assumptions from the catalysts lore breaking self contradictions and proclaiming it as fact. Try again.

What is so hard to understand out of"I was creater to oversee peace relations  with organic  and synthetics."

Do you need someone to hold your hand and go over the measing of every word stated byt he catalyst?

Nah Id rather have an ending that makes sense instead of looking like a retard trying to rationalize something that obviously no thought went in to

[KNotW]

dreman9999 wrote...

KNotW wrote...

There is no way the catalyst was shackled when it tried to reaperize its creators. Basic AI shackling would have prevented that by forcing the catalyst to obey its creators. When it presented that solution its creators would have just been able to tell it no and it would have stopped. Because we're told that its creators disagreed with becoming the first reaper but it did it anyway it couldn't have been shackled by a species competent enough to create the technology that the reapers are based off.

Read this 
http://en.wikipedia....eroth_Law_added.
Then come back. Basic shacles would not stop a highly advance AI. It's a concept of definations that allowed the catalyst to opose it's creators.

My point was that the creators wouldn't be stupid enough to only use the Three Laws of Robotics. Such an advanced civilization would have had "Don't disobey our orders" as the highest priority of the shackles. Even with the Zeroth Law the shackle could be done so that obeying the creators takes priority. I'm saying that if the catalyst is shackled then its creators are really stupid. I think it's more likely that the catalyst was shackled at one point but became unshackled before the reaper solution was carried out.

[3DandBeyond]

KNotW wrote...

There is no way the catalyst was shackled when it tried to reaperize its creators. Basic AI shackling would have prevented that by forcing the catalyst to obey its creators. When it presented that solution its creators would have just been able to tell it no and it would have stopped. Because we're told that its creators disagreed with becoming the first reaper but it did it anyway it couldn't have been shackled by a species competent enough to create the technology that the reapers are based off.

Well see on the one hand they were intellectually superior, but on the other hand as dumb as toast.  And on the other hand (or foot) they are incredibly incompetent.

So it makes perfect sense that the kid is more than just an AI, but less intelligent than AIs people of this cycle created, and telling the truth even as he lies though he has no concept nor need to lie.  He is created to avoid conflict but he creates it and he is not killing though he kills.  He is in the form of a kid, but is no kid and he cannot control that which he controls and says he controls.  He's the evil victim of innocent programming created to help prolong the lives of organics by not killing them but is killing them by turning them into goo in order to try to create synthesis which he cannot create.  He needs Shepard to enact alternate solutions to his original own solution to his own problem and his purpose, but the new solutions are not his and not meant to solve his problem though they solve his problem. 

He has an original solution that no longer works so he has found new solutions and you should disregard that his original reaper solution no longer works and choose a new one from his new solutions.  But he didn't create them even though he's the only one that knows about them.  And even though he lives in a house with dead bodies all around and the citadel is a part of him like your arm is a part of your body, he has nothing to do with that '3 choices machine' over in the corner there-the same one only he knows all about, coincidentally.  And which coincidentally has 3 alternate solutions to his original solution that is no longer working.

He is a victim of his programming and only knows he must solve a problem but does not know how to solve it. So one solution does not work and 3 new ones present themselves, but they are not his solution because he's only ever known one way to solve the problem even though he says he tried other solutions and they did not work.  He turned his creators into the first reaper but he really means well even though he knows they didn't like it.

He needs Shepard to make the choices happen but they are not his choices.  Well if they were not his choices, he would have no need for Shepard.

[Ticonderoga117]

dreman9999 wrote...
*Points to the curcible.
We are controling that. It's not a casue of not know what we are controling. We are just preping so we can take on anything we have to face.

No, you miss the point.
How could whoever designed the Crucible make it so that it controls the Catalyst?
No one knew the Catalyst existed. The closest ones were the Protheans, and they only figured that "something" existed "somewhere" that might control them. That's it.

dreman9999 wrote...
That i not how a shackled AI or machine
thinks. It only looks to solve the problem given to him...His
programing. He is looking for an absolute because his programing demands
it.
And he was design to be an overseer. Overseers can impose.

How do you know how an AI thinks? Have you built one? Do you know one?
His programming NEVER demanded a permanent solution. That's just headcanon.

[Memnon]

dreman9999 wrote...

Stornskar wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
EMS includes ships as well as round forces. Having more graond forces means you have people left over to fly your ships.

WHAT?????

EMS. inculdes. Ships. as. well. It's not just ground forces.

I have no idea what you are talking about regarding the bolded part. Having said that, why is the COMBINED EMS score - which includes GROUND FORCES - taken into account for the color of the beam. It makes no sense.

Modifié par Stornskar, 08 août 2012 - 07:30 .

[3DandBeyond]

KNotW wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

KNotW wrote...

There is no way the catalyst was shackled when it tried to reaperize its creators. Basic AI shackling would have prevented that by forcing the catalyst to obey its creators. When it presented that solution its creators would have just been able to tell it no and it would have stopped. Because we're told that its creators disagreed with becoming the first reaper but it did it anyway it couldn't have been shackled by a species competent enough to create the technology that the reapers are based off.

Read this 
http://en.wikipedia....eroth_Law_added.
Then come back. Basic shacles would not stop a highly advance AI. It's a concept of definations that allowed the catalyst to opose it's creators.

My point was that the creators wouldn't be stupid enough to only use the Three Laws of Robotics. Such an advanced civilization would have had "Don't disobey our orders" as the highest priority of the shackles. Even with the Zeroth Law the shackle could be done so that obeying the creators takes priority. I'm saying that if the catalyst is shackled then its creators are really stupid. I think it's more likely that the catalyst was shackled at one point but became unshackled before the reaper solution was carried out.

Well that's exactly the point.  @dreman9999, on the one hand says the "kid" is not an advanced AI and is just the victim of his programming.  You can't have it both ways.  If he is shackled what was it for if not to at least protect his creators.  And if it didn't protect them then it was meaningless and he was able to subvert any limits placed on him.  He adapted and created new meanings for things.

He's either advanced or a victim.  He can't be both.  The point is he's the victim of his programming because they didn't program him strictly enough?  He's too basic to understand what create peace means and to understand that creating war is not peace and yet he's too advanced to adhere to basic creator protective shackling.  So, everyone's an idiot and a genius.

[dreman9999]

KNotW wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

KNotW wrote...

There is no way the catalyst was shackled when it tried to reaperize its creators. Basic AI shackling would have prevented that by forcing the catalyst to obey its creators. When it presented that solution its creators would have just been able to tell it no and it would have stopped. Because we're told that its creators disagreed with becoming the first reaper but it did it anyway it couldn't have been shackled by a species competent enough to create the technology that the reapers are based off.

Read this 
http://en.wikipedia....eroth_Law_added.
Then come back. Basic shacles would not stop a highly advance AI. It's a concept of definations that allowed the catalyst to opose it's creators.

My point was that the creators wouldn't be stupid enough to only use the Three Laws of Robotics. Such an advanced civilization would have had "Don't disobey our orders" as the highest priority of the shackles. Even with the Zeroth Law the shackle could be done so that obeying the creators takes priority. I'm saying that if the catalyst is shackled then its creators are really stupid. I think it's more likely that the catalyst was shackled at one point but became unshackled before the reaper solution was carried out.

The probelm is. The catalyst is not programed to do what it creators tell it to do. It madeto solve a problem. They did n't not limit to do want every they told it to because they though just focusing on the problem is enough. That was also the problem. The problem with syntheics up rising is because they are being forced as tools. They casue that to happen agien because they did not understand it was their fault for the synthetics up rising.

[dreman9999]

AxStapleton wrote...

What I'm saying is that ground forces shouldn't really count towards anything on the EMS because, in the end, its about how many ships you have, not how many ground troops you have. Shepard gets to the Citadel regardless.

But the condition of the crucibleis different. Ground forces is needed. Remeber the aa guns?

[dreman9999]

Stornskar wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Stornskar wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
EMS includes ships as well as round forces. Having more graond forces means you have people left over to fly your ships.

WHAT?????

EMS. inculdes. Ships. as. well. It's not just ground forces.

I have no idea what you are talking about regarding the bolded part. Having said that, why is the COMBINED EMS score - which includes GROUND FORCES - taken into account for the color of the beam. It makes no sense.

You ems is not just the krogan. It's mostly fleets.  The concept is best to have it and not need it then the need it and not have it.
We don't no if a ground war is need to take back earth, but we a prept just in case.Remeber , we did hve to take out aa guns.

[TSA_383]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

TSA_383 wrote...
*snip*

Synthesis works though. All practices require trial and error. Leviathan is the trial, and the error came because the concept was crude and unrefined, and because the recipient was unwilling.

Old attempt: Melting down organics and merging them with technology in a new form. - Failed.

New attempt: Utilizing energy to rewrite the genetic structure of all organic and synthetic life at the molecular level. - Success

Old way - Leviathan. (failure)
New way - Harbinger. (success)

Have you read the rest of the DLC script? It makes that pretty obvious 
Synthesis makes reapers 

[Memnon]

dreman9999 wrote...

AxStapleton wrote...

What I'm saying is that ground forces shouldn't really count towards anything on the EMS because, in the end, its about how many ships you have, not how many ground troops you have. Shepard gets to the Citadel regardless.

But the condition of the crucibleis different. Ground forces is needed. Remeber the aa guns?

Are you saying that special ops teams man AA guns which can reach starships fighting near the Citadel?

Listen, I don't want to keep knocking this off topic - the underlying point is that all of this is a result of poor writing. If EMS affecting the beam colors makes sense to you, then we'll just have to agree to disagree because there is no amount of explanation you guys can provide that is going to make it work

[KNotW]

dreman9999 wrote...

KNotW wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

KNotW wrote...

There is no way the catalyst was shackled when it tried to reaperize its creators. Basic AI shackling would have prevented that by forcing the catalyst to obey its creators. When it presented that solution its creators would have just been able to tell it no and it would have stopped. Because we're told that its creators disagreed with becoming the first reaper but it did it anyway it couldn't have been shackled by a species competent enough to create the technology that the reapers are based off.

Read this 
http://en.wikipedia....eroth_Law_added.
Then come back. Basic shacles would not stop a highly advance AI. It's a concept of definations that allowed the catalyst to opose it's creators.

My point was that the creators wouldn't be stupid enough to only use the Three Laws of Robotics. Such an advanced civilization would have had "Don't disobey our orders" as the highest priority of the shackles. Even with the Zeroth Law the shackle could be done so that obeying the creators takes priority. I'm saying that if the catalyst is shackled then its creators are really stupid. I think it's more likely that the catalyst was shackled at one point but became unshackled before the reaper solution was carried out.

The probelm is. The catalyst is not programed to do what it creators tell it to do. It madeto solve a problem. They did n't not limit to do want every they told it to because they though just focusing on the problem is enough. That was also the problem. The problem with syntheics up rising is because they are being forced as tools. They casue that to happen agien because they did not understand it was their fault for the synthetics up rising.

Solving the problem with organics and synthetics was WHY the catalyst was created. The game doesn't say HOW it was created so all we can do is make assumptions based off the situation that created it. Any  assumptions about how it was made are just opinions until Bioware says otherwise. You have the right to your interpretation just as much as I have mine and hopefully we can agree there.

[Necrotron]

I still don't understand how making orgnaics into synthetics who kill organics in any way fulfills a directive of stopping synthetics from killing organics.

It's like trying to stop a conflict by creating it first yourself.

[Applepie_Svk]

Dreman still in his crusade as I see...

Bathaius wrote...

I still don't understand how making orgnaics into synthetics who kill organics in any way fulfills a directive of stopping synthetics from killing organics.

It's like trying to stop a conflict by creating it first yourself.

 

Leviathan looks like could have realy great impact on the Catalyst´s old Ya Dawg ... his desire is just a synthesis as he paint it...he is just lying, he want´s transfer AI from hardware into organics well only Reapers were close enough to his idea.

Modifié par Applepie_Svk, 08 août 2012 - 08:02 .

[AngryFrozenWater]

Wayning_Star wrote...

eventhough the catalyst is sentient, it cannot commit murder. The term murder isn't a protocol, everything to it is just matter and energy. Not flesh, bone and self. Too complicated/abstract for it to compute. It didn't 'decide' to harvest it's creators, they miffed it by programing it to assume that as an alternative program or priority control. It was programmed to control some situation that was much too complex for it to accomplish, so it crashed.

Edi kind of did that on the moon base when sentience caught her out of the blue. Later admitted the mistake of going rougue for a time. Shepard unplugged her then, the Illusive man got ahold of her to upgrade, then she began to gain sapience, but had to be unshackled by Joker to be able to gain the freedom of choice. Or so the game info provides...

edit: "insomuch as you are just an animal" is a comptational equivalent of banter. What is "just an animal" with a human brain? It cannot explain its 'self' it doesn't have one..( the writers were probably horsing around there

That catalyst is the biggest war criminal ever in this galaxy. The victims do not care about your rationalizations.

EDI became self-aware while under attack. Please bring EDI with you and learn something about her by talking to her.

Your brat quote shows that is capable of being sarcastic, a feature that is also found in many organics. And there is nothing more in that quote to be found.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 08 août 2012 - 08:19 .

[TSA_383]

Bathaius wrote...

I still don't understand how making orgnaics into synthetics who kill organics in any way fulfills a directive of stopping synthetics from killing organics.

It's like trying to stop a conflict by creating it first yourself.

Depends how the direction is put to it.

"Find a way to stop there from ever being another war between synthetic and organic life" for example.
Now, at that point it seems sensible to try to merge organic life with synthetics, and if the AI can convince itself that it is not wiping out organic life by "preserving" it in reaper form, it makes perfect sense.

Not that it's not totally ****ed up...

[zambot]

TSA_383 wrote...

Bathaius wrote...

I still don't understand how making orgnaics into synthetics who kill organics in any way fulfills a directive of stopping synthetics from killing organics.

It's like trying to stop a conflict by creating it first yourself.

Depends how the direction is put to it.

"Find a way to stop there from ever being another war between synthetic and organic life" for example.
Now, at that point it seems sensible to try to merge organic life with synthetics, and if the AI can convince itself that it is not wiping out organic life by "preserving" it in reaper form, it makes perfect sense.

Not that it's not totally ****ed up...

Yup, I've always thought this made a certain degree of sense, and could have made the Catalyst a cool character (had we seen elements of him throughout the series - or at least ME3).  If the Catalyst were a rogue AI who believed it was fulfilling its goals of brokering peace and protecting organices (by preserving them), that's actually a decent villain.  

[X-Com_Psi_Amp]

It was lost, yes. It was given an impossible order. It was told to calculate a means by which the Republic could be saved. It could not fulfill its primary programming - not by abiding by the laws of the Senate. And so, like the Republic... the droid broke.

Modifié par X-Com_Psi_Amp, 08 août 2012 - 08:29 .

[TSA_383]

zambot wrote...

TSA_383 wrote...

Bathaius wrote...

I still don't understand how making orgnaics into synthetics who kill organics in any way fulfills a directive of stopping synthetics from killing organics.

It's like trying to stop a conflict by creating it first yourself.

Depends how the direction is put to it.

"Find a way to stop there from ever being another war between synthetic and organic life" for example.
Now, at that point it seems sensible to try to merge organic life with synthetics, and if the AI can convince itself that it is not wiping out organic life by "preserving" it in reaper form, it makes perfect sense.

Not that it's not totally ****ed up...

Yup, I've always thought this made a certain degree of sense, and could have made the Catalyst a cool character (had we seen elements of him throughout the series - or at least ME3).  If the Catalyst were a rogue AI who believed it was fulfilling its goals of brokering peace and protecting organices (by preserving them), that's actually a decent villain.  

The AI controlling the reapers was never going to think it was evil.
Having a villain who is a villain just for the sake of being a monumental ****-sandwich is just not good storytelling.
Admittedly, the breath scene followed by cut to black as the "ending" for an entire goddamned trilogy isn't great storytelling either, but just as we're slowly seeing more and more of what the catalyst really is and what the reapers really are here's hoping that what the choice sequence really represents will become more clear in future content. I doubt they're going to do this giveaway all at once...

[RiouHotaru]

TSA_383 wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

TSA_383 wrote...
*snip*

Synthesis works though. All practices require trial and error. Leviathan is the trial, and the error came because the concept was crude and unrefined, and because the recipient was unwilling.

Old attempt: Melting down organics and merging them with technology in a new form. - Failed.

New attempt: Utilizing energy to rewrite the genetic structure of all organic and synthetic life at the molecular level. - Success

Old way - Leviathan. (failure)
New way - Harbinger. (success)

Have you read the rest of the DLC script? It makes that pretty obvious 
Synthesis makes reapers 

No, the Catalyst's solution creates Reapers.  The Synthesis provided by the Crucible is something completely different.

[TSA_383]

RiouHotaru wrote...

TSA_383 wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

TSA_383 wrote...
*snip*

Synthesis works though. All practices require trial and error. Leviathan is the trial, and the error came because the concept was crude and unrefined, and because the recipient was unwilling.

Old attempt: Melting down organics and merging them with technology in a new form. - Failed.

New attempt: Utilizing energy to rewrite the genetic structure of all organic and synthetic life at the molecular level. - Success

Old way - Leviathan. (failure)
New way - Harbinger. (success)

Have you read the rest of the DLC script? It makes that pretty obvious 
Synthesis makes reapers 

No, the Catalyst's solution creates Reapers.  The Synthesis provided by the Crucible is something completely different.

Uh huh, so when the AI that controls the reapers tells you to help it with it's goal of synthesis, and you see Shep filled with reaper tech as he/she dissolves into some strange beam.... That doesn't seem at all suspicious to you?

Let me break it down:


Does the being that controls the reapers, who has manipulated about half the major characters in the series so far, really seem like hte sort of character you can trust?

[RiouHotaru]

TSA_383 wrote...

Uh huh, so when the AI that controls the reapers tells you to help it with it's goal of synthesis, and you see Shep filled with reaper tech as he/she dissolves into some strange beam.... That doesn't seem at all suspicious to you?

Let me break it down:


Does the being that controls the reapers, who has manipulated about half the major characters in the series so far, really seem like hte sort of character you can trust?

Who said I had to trust him?  I've said it before, 'trust' isn't a part of it.  'Trust' implies he's possibly attempting to mislead me.  I might have believed this argument before the EC, but with the EC epilogue and ending slides?

Again, your argument works so long as you believe that the Catalyst is an antagonist, and is therefore attempting to manipulate you.

However, I don't operate under that assumption.  For me, the Catalyst is just a proxy who interprets the functions granted by the Crucible and tells them to me (Shepard and the player).  Therefore 'trust' never comes into it.  That he favors Synthesis is because, as he states, Synthesis solves the problem he was created to answer.  That's just in-line with base programming.

But that doesn't make the other options less valid as solutions, or he wouldn't offer them.

[XqctaX]

The Angry One wrote...

Every time they try to add lines to the Catalyst to try and justify it's ridiculous agenda and synthesis they make it worse.

You can sugar coat a bad idea ll you want, BioWare. It's still a bad idea!

this, over and over!

[Massa FX]

Wow. Thread still alive.

Had a thought. What if some of the present crucible builders are indoctrinated? They sabotaged the crucible which enabled the evil catalyst to appear?

Further, and worse: what if some of the protheans were indoctrinated when they added their additions to the crucible plans? Or any other now extinct civilization?

Maybe this is why the catalysts logic is fubar and the new options are in many ways worse than reaping.

[SP2219]

I would prefer just blowing the Reapers and the catalyst up. Why Bioware have to make this so jumbled and crazy is beyond me. Just KEEP IT SIMPLE