1085 réponses à ce sujet

[dreman9999]

Jayleia wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Listen to what he says. It effects all tech.

"Technology you reliy on will be affected, but those who servive should have little difficulty repairing the damage"

That means tech is effected, but it can be easily repaired. That's why the normady land on that planet and was able to get off.
It effect all tech but it's not permanent.

But those who survive...hmm...so if you have a high-end artificial heart with a sophisticated VI control system and you're hit by the EPIC EMP BLAST O DOOM, you should be able to repair the damage before death.

Or a power grid powering oh...hospitals, sewage treatment plants, how fast can those be brought back?

1. He made no gaurantees that Shepard would die.
2. Power grid powering, Hospitals, sewage treatment plants,  and etc would be long destroyed from the war.
The reapers are attacking entire planets...And somehow you think they would avode these places?

Modifié par dreman9999, 09 août 2012 - 01:49 .

[Mobius-Silent]

Going back to the OP

TSA_383 wrote...
...where you discover that Leviathan is the very first "unsuccessful" reaper...

What? where on _earth_ did you get this from? the leaked dialogue is pretty clear that Leviathan is precisely what is says on the tin... a Leviathan, the last of the race of Leviathans. Not a Reaper, not a proto-Reaper, not an "unsuccessful" Reaper, not some failed synthesis experiment, just the last of his race.

The _mission_ will have a build up where the characters don't know what Leviathan is, and speculate about it's nature, back when they only know it's a "Reaper-killer" and they find out it can do something similar to indoctrination.

Then Shep goes and meets Leviathan (underwater), and they find out that Leviathan isn't a Reaper it's the last of the race that built the Reapers and the Catalyst... thats the big reveal that has been spoilt by the EC dialogue leak.

Leviathan was _never_ a "Rogue Reaper" that is a line of dialogue from Javik from _before_ the crew has any idea what Leviathan really is.

Sheesh.

Modifié par Mobius-Silent, 09 août 2012 - 01:57 .

[dreman9999]

Mobius-Silent wrote...

Going back to the OP

TSA_383 wrote...
...where you discover that Leviathan is the very first "unsuccessful" reaper...

What? where on _earth_ did you get this from? the leaked dialogue is pretty clear that Leviathan is precisely what is says on the tin... a Leviathan, the last of the race of Leviathans. Not a Reaper, not a proto-Reaper, not an "unsuccessful" Reaper, not some failed synthesis experiment, just the last of his race.

The _mission_ will have a build up where the characters don't know what Leviathan is, and speculate about it's nature, back when they only know it's a "Reaper-killer" and they find out it can do something similar to indoctrination.

Then Shep goes and meets Leviathan (underwater), and they find out that Leviathan isn't a Reaper it's the last of the race that built the Reapers and the Catalyst... thats the big reveal that has been spoilt by the EC dialogue leak.

Leviathan was _never_ a "Rogue Reaper" that is a line of dialogue from Javik from _before_ the crew has any idea what Leviathan really is.

Sheesh.

... Did you read?

[Mobius-Silent]

dreman9999 wrote...
.. Did you read?

Yes I did, there isn't a single item in any of the leaked dialogue that supports the OP's initial assertion that Leviathan is an "unsucessful" Reaper everyone else seems to be basing their assumptions taking that point as true when it has no supporting evidence

[3DandBeyond]

dreman9999 wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

Irockz wrote...

inversevideo wrote...

Starkid is lying to Shepard, and attempting to play with her mind by taking the visage of the kid she could not save.
So there is no reason to believe anything the Starkid tells you, and good reason to evaluate carefully what it is laying down.

Are you the only other person aside from me that figured this out? It seems like it (although I believe that it takes the form of someone that the other knows well based off indoctrination. What I'm saying is that the Indoctrination Theorists were right-to an extent. Shepard IS indoctrinated, but not to a large extent, by any means. She isn't affected by it yet, but the Reapers know her thoughts.)

Well seeing as much of the complaining over the original endings and the kid was that people thought it made no sense to trust the kid, and many complaints are still about the same thing even with the EC, I don't think you are alone.  Part of the problem with the game is the kid being in it at all.  He's clearly there to say something at the beginning, but it's for new players; he's there to put a face on the war for Shepard.  For anyone who played ME1 and/or 2, he mostly comes off as awful.

As the glow kid I think there are people that don't even realize he is fooling them.  I mean it's incredible the number of people that don't think he's capable of lying (yet he has) or that he is even the enemy.  Some think he has good reasons for doing what he does.  If he were Harbinger or even TIM, I think the attitude about the choices and the catalyst would be much different.  Even when some people know he says, "so be it" they still seem to think he's some victim of his programming.

If you going to say he is lieing...Give proof to how and what he lied about. Because ift his leak is true, then it's clear he is not.

How many times do I have to post what he has lied about?  And there are many ways he lies.  He is deceptive.  I have replied to you in several different threads regarding this and what he has done.  You ignore anything that doesn't fit with your tragic super advanced adaptable partly-but-not-totally shackled AI that was allowed the freedom to figure out how to solve a problem with loose programming, but whose programming is so strict he cannot be held responsible because he's just a dumb machine.  How can anyone discuss anything with you?  I say he lies.  You say show proof.  I show proof.  You say he's just a machine and machines can't lie-you say I don't know how machines think.  If I say he can, he's an advanced AI, you say I don't know how AIs think.  If I say he can adapt, that's what makes him advanced-like EDI.  You say, no he's controlled by his programming.  If I say that would mean he is shackled in some way so he couldn't have destroyed his creators.  You say an advanced AI could get around basic shackling.  That means he is not bound by his programming and he can adapt and think on his own.  I know what you will say to that.  You will say no he was only given a problem and wasn't told how to solve it.  And again I will say that means he was given the authority to think for himself.  And he has done that.  But here goes--he lies.  If you come back with your usual BS then it's because you have closed your mind to anything that does not fit your idea of a tragic boy AI.

The kid says he controls the reapers.  If he doesn't, he is lying.  You say he doesn't.  If he does, he also is responsible for indoctrination.  Indoctrination forces people to believe things that are not true.  That's lying.  The kid says he's not killing anyone, but he is.  He knows what that is and he is doing it, but he says he is not.  That's lying.  The kid lies by omission.  Why, if he did not create the plans for the crucible, does he not say who did?  He knows they exist.  He does not say he didn't create them and he doesn't say who did.  If he didn't create them, he could tell Shepard he didn't and hope Shepard believes that.  If he did create them and told Shepard that, no way Shepard would want to use the crucible.  The great possibility exists that he created the crucible and the choices.  Not proof of a lie, but one piece of evidence that creates the possibility of a lie. The Citadel is a part of him just as your body is a part of you, as opposed to the Normandy and EDI.  In saying this he is taking ownership of what happens on the Citadel and the choices exist there.  If you get a tattoo on your body, unless you were drunk, you tend to know where it came from. 

The kid is being deceptive just by looking like he does.  He's obviously not the kid.  Of all the people Shepard has met the AI takes the form of the most supposedly innocent and (ugh) tragic one.  The kid had no weapon, was not fighting, was running away, and was killed.  He is by definition supposed to be very innocent.  Why not take on the appearance of TIM or Anderson, even.  The appearance as a kid is as old as it gets.  A wolf in sheep's clothing.  Deceptive.

All choices do solve his problem, even control and destroy do.  Yes, he is a program and he is tasked with solving a problem.  He sucks at it.  His solution is always temporary, because he makes it so.  He does not want the problem ever to be solved, because then he will no longer be needed and may be shut off.  Pure conjecture, but he could have a shut off routine.  He may know no matter what if his problem is finally solved he may be gone.  End conjecture.

His solution is temporary.  So are the choices as he presents them.  One assures that he may "live" on as he is now.  That may be why he promotes it.  The other two represent less acceptable solutions, but they still solve his problem, what he was programmed to do.  He has tried other things before-tried things before making a reaper.  And then in a real act of deceit, he turned his creators into a reaper.  He did what you said, he determined how to solve his problem.  It no longer works.  He needs another way to solve it and he has 3.  They are all temporary.  Synthesis is a bit more permanent, but still could lead to organic and synthetic lifeforms being created and so on.  And the reapers still exist as does the kid.

Control might still leave him in the reapers-no longer the AI in control of things, but a part of the whole Shepard AI.  Conflict could return because the reapers still exist.  The kid most likely still exists too.

Destroy does get rid of synthetics, though the kid's whole description of what it does is a mess.  It destroys reapers or does it just shut down their AIs?  They don't vaporize.  And that means the kid's blue box, if there is one, still may be in existence.  He even says the conflict will return (as he sees it).  If mass relays and the citadel are repaired, who is to say what else might be?  But even so, the threat as he sees it has been destroyed, for now.

All solutions are temporary and some not his favorites, but they all stop the conflict as he sees it.  Any solution fulfills his programming.  He could very well be in control of all of it.

I know this is all pointless because you won't respond directly to all of this, but again I tried.

He could be lying because he has lied. 

[Mobius-Silent]

dreman9999 wrote...
.. Did you read?

I'll make it easy for you, quote me one single line that states that _the_ Leviathan is not simply one of the race of Leviathans that _are_ mentioned in the leaked dialogue as being the creators of the Reapers and Catalyst (For example, one that doesn't start with "If")

Modifié par Mobius-Silent, 09 août 2012 - 02:12 .

[3DandBeyond]

Mobius-Silent wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
.. Did you read?

Yes I did, there isn't a single item in any of the leaked dialogue that supports the OP's initial assertion that Leviathan is an "unsucessful" Reaper everyone else seems to be basing their assumptions taking that point as true when it has no supporting evidence

I see the Leviathan as the model for the reaper construct.

If organic, Leviathans could have been the kid's creators.  The Leviathan of Dis was a biomechanical dead ship.  That might have been a "failed" reapers.  But the real Leviathans themselves may well be organic.  They may have created ships in their own image and perhaps those ships gained sentience and became the machine devils destroying organics.  The kid could have been one of many AIs created (beings of light) to stop the Leviathan ships.  The kid might have then put living Leviathans into the ship construct. 

His creators gave the reapers their form.  It could make sense that his creators made ships that looked like them.  The living ships rebelled.  It may also be that the ships were created to use organic fuel, but they began finding their own fuel and were destroying all organic life.  They'd gained some sentience and fed at will.  So the kid was created to solve that problem-he had to find balance and peace. 

[3DandBeyond]

Mobius-Silent wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
.. Did you read?

I'll make it easy for you, quote me one single line that states that _the_ Leviathan is not simply one of the race of Leviathans that _are_ mentioned in the leaked dialogue as being the creators of the Reapers and Catalyst (For example, one that doesn't start with "If")

You have just entered a black hole.

[Mobius-Silent]

3DandBeyond wrote...
The Leviathan of Dis was a biomechanical dead ship. 

"The Leviathan of Dis" is a name the Batarians came up with for the Reaper corpse they found.

This Reaper corpse did all the usual things, indoctrination etc and eventually caused the fall of the Batarian homeworld to the Reaper forces.

The "Leviathan of Dis" has NOTHING TO DO with "Leviathan" from the DLC.

The DLC doesn't mention Dis, nor Batarians because it is not the same thing, not _once_ has their been any mention of a connection save by people quoting the original leak thread that made the same false connection.

Modifié par Mobius-Silent, 09 août 2012 - 02:22 .

[Mobius-Silent]

Here if dialogue from _after_ the reveal

They once unleashed a plague that has haunted all of our history to this day.

"they" are the Leviathans, one of which you've found

So the Reapers did not fully exterminate their creators. That suggests they are fallible, even on large or long-term scales.

Leviathan is a creator, not an experiment.

The creature in the DLC is called "Leviathan" it is a "Leviathan" the last of the race of "Leviathans" the race that created the Reapers and the Catalyst. This DLC has nothing to do with the synthesis ending or the Batarian Reaper corpse

This is all really simple:

• The Reapers were simply synthetics made in the image of their creators (Huge squid-insects)
• They Rebelled
• The Leviathans created the Catalyst to ensure peace
• The Leviathans gave the Catalyst a problem that was unsolvable within it's constraints, it went all "Rule Zero" acting in a manner that the LEviathans didn't expect given the limitations they have given it.
• The Catalyst came up with the idea of "Preserving" the organics in the already-existing Reapers but couldn't do it itself
• The Catalyst siezes control of the Reapers and gives then a new purpose and they harvest all but one of their creators and pack the goo into Harbinger who becomes the first "true" reaper (as we know them)
• The crucible introduces new information and tech that allows the Catalyst to accept other options

Modifié par Mobius-Silent, 09 août 2012 - 03:19 .

[3DandBeyond]

Mobius-Silent wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...
The Leviathan of Dis was a biomechanical dead ship. 

"The Leviathan of Dis" is a name the Batarians came up with for the Reaper corpse they found.

This Reaper corpse did all the usual things, indoctrination etc and eventually caused the fall of the Batarian homeworld to the Reaper forces.

The "Leviathan of Dis" has NOTHING TO DO with "Leviathan" from the DLC.

The DLC doesn't mention Dis, nor Batarians because it is not the same thing, not _once_ has their been any mention of a connection save by people quoting the original leak thread that made the same false connection.

So what?  You have leaked info that isn't always the only thing that comes out in the final product.  And I don't care whether it's in the DLC or not.  So what if someone (Balak) thinks it is a dead reaper.  He may think that because it looks like one.  So, it could be a created biomechanical ship-something the Leviathans made.  It could also have been a reaper-so what?  That doesn't mean it wasn't still a ship at first that the kid had turned into a reaper.  How is that contradicting anything else?

The Leviathan in the DLC can also indoctrinate, but it isn't a reaper either unless we get told it is.  It indoctrinates people in the DLC.

I'm not quoting the original leak thread nor have I read every little tidbit of info on it.  I've looked at what the kid says, what is in the codex, what some of the leviathan dialogue and info says.

So since you are the expert here, who made the things that the kid's creators were put into to become reapers?  I believe his creators made them.

Until proven wrong, I still say it's possible the Leviathans were organics that created biomechanical ships that used organic material for fuel.  The Leviathans could indoctrinate and so could their constructs-maybe only once Leviathans were uploaded into them.  Leviathans may have piloted the ships (using a form of control like Harbinger controls collectors) remotely.  They may have created the kid and other AIs (which could possibly tie into the beings of light of Klencory) when these created ships when rogue.  Then the kid could have uploaded his creators into a ship creating the first reaper.  I never put this forth as fact-it is conjecture just as anything is until the DLC is released.

These ships don't become reapers until the kid turns them into reapers-harvesting and reaping.  Nothing I've said conflicts with anything we do know.  I never said the Dis Leviathan is this one at all. 

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 09 août 2012 - 03:28 .

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

My proverbial 2.5 cents.

Reapers are bad.

Killing Reapers is good.

The catalyst is either a moron, evil, or both.

Killing the Catalyst is good.

dreman9999 has incredibly bad spelling.

That is all.

Modifié par Grand Admiral Cheesecake, 09 août 2012 - 03:37 .

[Mobius-Silent]

3DandBeyond wrote...
The Leviathan in the DLC can also indoctrinate

 No, it does something _like_ indoctrination, more like what happened on ferros. Firstly it's not destructive to the victim, secondly the victim doesn't remember anything that happened during the period of control. It's basically puppeting (They even mention "being knocked out of your mind" in the leak)

3DandBeyond wrote...
So since you are the expert here, who made the things that the kid's creators were put into to become reapers?  I believe his creators made them.

The creators (Leviathans) made both the Reapers-as-only-synthetics and the Catalyst. This is outright stated in the leaked dialogue, the Catalyst gave then the idea to archive organic races in their chassis.

3DandBeyond wrote...Until proven wrong, I still say it's possible the Leviathans were organics that created biomechanical ships that used organic material for fuel

Reapers don't use organic for fuel, they just store the DNA and use it as part of their "mind" a Reaper is a machine with organic parts (hence bio-mechanical) The Leviathans look like Reapers, the reapers aren't "ships" they are like the geth, made in the likeness of their creators

But thats not important, what is important is that the central assumption of the OP is incorrect and completely unsupported in the text he/she claims supports it.

Modifié par Mobius-Silent, 09 août 2012 - 03:56 .

[TheRealJayDee]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

My proverbial 2.5 cents.

Reapers are bad.

Killing Reapers is good.

The catalyst is either a moron, evil, or both.

Killing the Catalyst is good.

dreman9999 has incredibly bad spelling.

That is all.

[Baronesa]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

My proverbial 2.5 cents.

Reapers are bad.

Killing Reapers is good.

The catalyst is either a moron, evil, or both.

Killing the Catalyst is good.

dreman9999 has incredibly bad spelling.

That is all.

I like it...

[moonlightwolf]

 interesting so assuming that Leviathan was planned before the extended cut they really were planning on selling us a DLC to help explain their epic failure of an ending. Wow really me confident that bioware aren't turning into a bunch oportunistic cash grabbers. Maybe each singleplayer DLC will expand the ending till finally you buy one that lets you destroy the catalyst and retire to a sunny beach with Garrus and your LI.

[3DandBeyond]

Mobius-Silent wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...
The Leviathan in the DLC can also indoctrinate

 No, it does something _like_ indoctrination, more like what happened on ferros. Firstly it's not destructive to the victim, secondly the victim doesn't remember anything that happened during the period of control. It's basically puppeting (They even mention "being knocked out of your mind" in the leak)

3DandBeyond wrote...
So since you are the expert here, who made the things that the kid's creators were put into to become reapers?  I believe his creators made them.

The creators (Leviathans) made both the Reapers-as-only-synthetics and the Catalyst. This is outright stated in the leaked dialogue, the Catalyst gave then the idea to archive organic races in their chassis.

3DandBeyond wrote...Until proven wrong, I still say it's possible the Leviathans were organics that created biomechanical ships that used organic material for fuel

Reapers don't use organic for fuel, they just store the DNA and use it as part of their "mind" a Reaper is a machine with organic parts (hence bio-mechanical) The Leviathans look like Reapers, the reapers aren't "ships" they are like the geth, made in the likeness of their creators

Ok I know what supposedly reapers do with organic goo.  And I do know what biomechanical means.

And now you get into semantics.  The reapers are seen as ships and as partly mechanical things that must use some sort of propulsion to get around and they are not naturally occurring beings, they are ships.  The geth are not flying around in space, but would be considered "ships" if they did that.  The pre-reaper creations appear to have lacked actually consciousness and were mere ships.  I used fuel as a loose term much as I might say reapers eat people.  It really gets insane to try and discuss anything with anyone who wants to be so literal about a term.

So, the biomechanical pre-reaper constructs were made in the likeness of the organic Leviathans who also created the kid.  The Leviathans (Batarians must have known something about them to coincidentally name the Dis thing a Leviathan), perhaps created these pre-reaper ships to utilize organic DNA to run their processes but not to make them self-aware.  It is possible they became so on their own (based on things the kid thinks will happen to synthetics).  They became "better" than their creators and began to kill them off.  The kid was created to stop this.  The Volus looking for beings of light that were to protect organics from mechanical devils, may have been referring to the kid or some precursors to him.  The kid came up with the solution as he saw it which was to attempt synthesis, to join his creators (some of the last of their kind) to the pre-reaper construct in order to preserve them as they were about to go extinct.  It's kind of like EDI entering Eva Core's synth body.  He created the first true reaper by doing this.  Or so the kid thought.  But he saw that his creators were not happy so he knew it was not the best solution, and he needed a new one.

He may then have created plans for the crucible which could power some augmentation to his programming to either perfect synthesis, provide someone more capable of enforcing his solution (control) since he realized he had erred.  Or, someone that could "start over" by destroying all that he had created.  Each of the choices solves his problem which he may have long ago realized he did not and could not solve.

What he also may have realized was that certain cycles were incapable of doing what he needed-they were lacking.  He did see something unique in humans.  Consider there are very few variations of reapers-no Prothean ones.  In fact the only new one seems to be the Human one he tries to make.  People of this cycle seem to finish the crucible.  They are unique because of one human.  Maybe he moved the Citadel to Earth for a purpose.  He opened up the Conduit for a purpose.  He didn't let Harbinger kill Shepard.  He says it-he needs Shepard.  His solution isn't working-he sees he failed.  He has been seeding the galaxy with tech to force people to advance to where they could help him.  He's been building reapers and ascending people because he thinks all that intelligence will provide help and will make the galaxy produce people that can make a good solution happen.

But, since he's always kind of sucked at his job, his new solutions are just as bad as the old one.  He didn't understand or care that his creators didn't want to become reapers until it happened and he doesn't really understand or care that these solutions are horrid as well. 

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

This is the appropriate face to have whenever someone tries to paint the catalyst/the reapers as victims.

https://encrypted-tb...mjU97FH3HJ2gVZD

[Baronesa]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

This is the appropriate face to have whenever someone tries to paint the catalyst/the reapers as victims.

https://encrypted-tb...mjU97FH3HJ2gVZD

I like this Krogan, he understands

[AresKeith]

throw the Catalyst into the beam

/thread

[Mobius-Silent]

3DandBeyond wrote...
And now you get into semantics.  The reapers are seen as ships and as partly mechanical things that must use some sort of propulsion to get around and they are not naturally occurring beings, they are ships.

They were not built to transport their makers, they were built to resemble their makers, their makers are just as big as they are. They were flying synthetics and, yes, they had a mind of their own before the catalyst came on the scene.

My guess (and this is just a guess) is that Leviathans are Biotic and can fly and survive in space, hence the reapers-as-pure-synthetics were built to be able to do the same things, this also suggests that indoctrination is just a synthetic copy of the Leviathan's natural organic control abilities (Which may just be part of their natural mode of communication)

Modifié par Mobius-Silent, 09 août 2012 - 04:32 .

[The Twilight God]

Nobody should trust it now.

[MaximizedAction]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

This is the appropriate face to have whenever someone tries to paint the catalyst/the reapers as victims.

*snip*

If the only image of bad guys people have is an evil, laughing guy with a suspicious facial expression then they are in for a bad surprise to what real bad guys are capable of.

Distracting away from you bad intentions is propaganda 101. That of course reality, and not even that, in reality there are no boundaries to lies and evil intentions.

But, some players maybe don't want to see the game too realistically. Maybe they want to see the utopia, where bad guys really can be merely misunderstood and victims of 'higher authorities' and are 'just following orders'.

But they also have to keep one thing in mind (and maybe sleep about that fact): The Catalyst declares The Illusive Man and Saren right, after all.

Modifié par MaximizedAction, 09 août 2012 - 04:27 .

[3DandBeyond]

Mobius-Silent wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...
And now you get into semantics.  The reapers are seen as ships and as partly mechanical things that must use some sort of propulsion to get around and they are not naturally occurring beings, they are ships.

They were not built to transport their makers, they were built to resemble their makers, their makers are just as big as they are. They were flying synthetics and, yes, they had a mind of their own before the catalyst came on the scene.

My guess (and this is just a guess) is that Leviathans are Biotic and can fly and survive in space (Much like Moya in Farscape), hence the reapers-as-pure-synthetics were built to be able to do the same things, this also suggests that indoctrination is just a synthetic copy of the Leviathan's natural organic control abilities (Which may just be part of their natural mode of communication)

Where did I say they were created to transport them?  Have you heard of drones?  The Leviathans may actually need to be near water or maybe not and may not have wanted to fly around everywhere all the time but might have built drones in their own image.  Or they may have been already going extinct.  Who knows?

Where did I say they didn't have minds at all.  In fact all I said is they may not have been fully sentient but became a problem when they became sentient.  We don't know.

But according to what you are saying the pre-reaper constructs were created to do what?  Stand around looking cool.

[Darkholl0w]

So I was right into not choosing Synthesis after all and chose Destroy from the beginning and stuck with it.

I'm glad with my choice.

Regarding the DLC,I think I will buy it for more lore revolving around Leviathan and maybe I can use a saved game pre last mission so I could do it before that.I really don't want to start a new game and do everything all over again.