1085 réponses à ce sujet

[3DandBeyond]

@dreman9999

If you ask a question, please read the answer before asking another one or saying it wasn't answered in the answer.

IIf he controls the reapers and he created them (even if he just put people into reapers) then he is responsible for indoctrination.  He used it to lie to TIM.  Indoctrination is lying.  It's making people believe something that is not true.  What do you call that (I'm cringing as I ask this)?

He says he is not killing people-Shepard tells him that what he is doing is killing people and he says, "no".  But ever person that a reaper just steps on or every person that dies in a ship a reaper destroys was killed, so he is killing people.  He lied.  He sent Sovereign and Sovereign used the geth to kill people-the geth didn't ascend them, they killed them.  But the kid says he isn't killing people.  He lied.

Sovereign and Harbinger are under his control, so if they lied, he lied.  Sovereign and Harbinger talk about killing and destruction-so they are killing people.  He lied.  Sovereign says the reapers are independent, the kid says they are controlled by him.  If either one is not being truthful, then he is lying. 

There are all kinds of lies.  There are lies of omission-he does not tell the origins of the crucible-he knows it but when asked about it, he doesn't say. 

He has said things that were not true or his reapers (you now say he is the reapers) have said things that weren't true.

Deception is lying.  He wants Shepard to think he is not a bad little AI.  So he is deceiving Shepard.  That is a form of lying.

You have no idea what happens to the kid after Shepard makes a choice.  If you think he's the reapers, he is still there in control and synthesis.  And no, neither is permanent.   The kid sees a problem between synthetics and organics as always happening.  Well, conflict always will-not always bad and sometimes it will be bad.  People can still create totally organic life-it's just chemicals and elements and molecules.  People can also still create synthetic life.  And reapers still exist in synthesis.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 09 août 2012 - 09:58 .

[TSA_383]

ATiBotka wrote...

SpamBot2000 wrote...

Did some poor fool trust that thing before Leviathan?

I trust him.

....Can I interest you in a fantastic opportunity concerning elevated roadways in the Brooklyn area?

[3DandBeyond]

TSA_383 wrote...

ATiBotka wrote...

SpamBot2000 wrote...

Did some poor fool trust that thing before Leviathan?

I trust him.

....Can I interest you in a fantastic opportunity concerning elevated roadways in the Brooklyn area?

Ooh ooh, bridges for $1000 Alex.

[Postman778]

dreman9999 wrote...

[*]
[*]You miss a keep fact. It affect all tech. That does not mean it destroies all tech.  Get it. As the catalyst stated, it would be easilly repaired. The quarians and every ship will be fine The suit are just airlocks  and can last some time before the quarian is in danger if it's suits tech is down. It can easilly be repair. Same with the ships. Your also missing the fact that Joker had to land on a planet...Why did he?

honestly, you are only reading what you want.
Joker didn´t land. Did you see it, how he landed the normandy? Any proof of it?
The ship went done and crashed.
If it affects all tech, than you contradict yourself. the normandy would be out of control. Physics teach us, that your speed will remain the same in space unless you are affected by a force e.g. from a planet that gives you a new direction and may force you to enter the atmoshere. Even when the beam hits the normandy, causing the relay travel to break down, it will continue its flight with almost light speed.
Now tell me, how you will manage to repair every tech onboard needed to land a space on an unknown world in almost no time? You have no radar, no engines, nothing...
The ship hulls will be fine, true, everything else won´t work. Even an airlock won´t work, because it is tech- controlled, (it is not a ww2 submarine, where you close the bulkheads with your hand) causing a decrease of preasure and finally a vacuum in your ship. The air supply in your suite won´t work.

How can everything be easily repaired? All ships must be completly offline if it affects all tech.
Explain me how everything is repaired? I cannot understand.

From where do you have your information that quarian "suits are just airlocks and can last some time before the quarian is in danger if it's suits tech is down?" Proof please

With EDI and the geth it's different.  If her software is distrupted and her reaper tech is destoryed...EDI would not  no longer be EDI. Think brain death and you'll get it. Her reaper hard ware that makes her what she is is gone. Think lobotamy. She would be like a VI.

proof/ source please.
Nothing you said is ever said in the game, nor in the mass effect wiki or anywhere else. Or I have missed it.

The geth on the other hand can be restored but the concenecuc as it was before is gone. They would be  How before they became self aware and have to gain that self awarniss back. This is a race the has to be one to be inteligent. Added, the reaper code they have is gone post-destroy. 

Proof please or is it just your interpretation?

[Prom001]

magnuskn wrote...

How... can an entire civilizations be harvested against its will to create the first Reaper when there are no Reapers yet? Did I miss that the Catalyst itself was part of one of those synthetic races which he so much opposes? One synthetic race that hated itself so very, very much?

good one.

how did the starchild creat the first reaper? with what army?

[Massa FX]

Prom001 wrote...

magnuskn wrote...

How... can an entire civilizations be harvested against its will to create the first Reaper when there are no Reapers yet? Did I miss that the Catalyst itself was part of one of those synthetic races which he so much opposes? One synthetic race that hated itself so very, very much?

good one.

how did the starchild creat the first reaper? with what army?

Only Bioware knows at this point.

[Gone Rampant]

I just wanna add this as a request to BioWare: Please make it so that if we do Refusal, it depends on our EMS, not "You lose right away."

[shepskisaac]

alleyd wrote...

 On a certain level I trust Cat-Boy to be completely on the level with me. I don't believe he actually has an alternative but to tell the truth. It isn't Organic or even a fully fledged AI IMO, It's a constructed intelligence with one singular puropose.

In other words Catboy is a Golem. A construct built upon a core of pure scientific logic and maths. He is nothing more than a product of his programming.

The ultimate responsibility for everything the Catalyst put in motion lies with the original programmers. They made two mistakes when building CatBoy. They didn't impose proper restrictions or safeguards on it and they also built in an assumption based on their belief that synthetics and organic conflict is inevitable.

This is the Keystone of Catboys Logic and sets the limits on everything, including its proposed solutions to Shepard. It can't think outside the box of its programming and shows a complete inability to deviate from its logic paths. Even when all evidence indicates that its pathways and solutions are invalid.

Fantastic post! However, there's one thing I would question. It is not sure whether he was programmed with the assumption that organic vs. synthetic conflict is inevitable or was a conclusion he came to. That would change things dramatically. Pre-defined assumption would mean that he will think the conflict is inevitable no matter what you say or present as evidence to him. But if it was his own conclusion, then you could argue it and possibly make him change his conclusion by adding new evidence.

alleyd wrote...

We are told that Shepard is the first Organic to encounter Catboy. A singularity event that totally invalidates Catboy's solution. Shepard wasn't expected to arrive by Catboy, sohow did it have the chance to build the Solutions onto the Citadel or Crucible? It's solutions are obviously historic and are therefore part of its original solution and have nothing to do with Shepard at all.

But these solutions are not created by the Catalyst. They're created by the Crucible = the designers of the Crucible who incorporated the Citadel's funcionality.

alleyd wrote...

There is one pardox that totally destroys the Catalyst's as a construct being. That's the Reapers themselves. They were created to enforce the Catalyst's solution. "The Created will always rebel against their Creators" Yet they are Created beings who have never rebelled against their creator" Totally Bi-Polar opposite truths that totally cancel each other out and cannot exist in a binary solution such as the Catalyst's  IMO. Each single Reaper created only reinforces the Paradox.

They can't rebel because he controls them. Levi wasn't controlled and he rebelled.

[dreman9999]

3DandBeyond wrote...

@dreman9999

If you ask a question, please read the answer before asking another one or saying it wasn't answered in the answer.

IIf he controls the reapers and he created them (even if he just put people into reapers) then he is responsible for indoctrination.  He used it to lie to TIM.  Indoctrination is lying.  It's making people believe something that is not true.  What do you call that (I'm cringing as I ask this)?

He says he is not killing people-Shepard tells him that what he is doing is killing people and he says, "no".  But ever person that a reaper just steps on or every person that dies in a ship a reaper destroys was killed, so he is killing people.  He lied.  He sent Sovereign and Sovereign used the geth to kill people-the geth didn't ascend them, they killed them.  But the kid says he isn't killing people.  He lied.

Sovereign and Harbinger are under his control, so if they lied, he lied.  Sovereign and Harbinger talk about killing and destruction-so they are killing people.  He lied.  Sovereign says the reapers are independent, the kid says they are controlled by him.  If either one is not being truthful, then he is lying. 

There are all kinds of lies.  There are lies of omission-he does not tell the origins of the crucible-he knows it but when asked about it, he doesn't say. 

He has said things that were not true or his reapers (you now say he is the reapers) have said things that weren't true.

Deception is lying.  He wants Shepard to think he is not a bad little AI.  So he is deceiving Shepard.  That is a form of lying.

You have no idea what happens to the kid after Shepard makes a choice.  If you think he's the reapers, he is still there in control and synthesis.  And no, neither is permanent.   The kid sees a problem between synthetics and organics as always happening.  Well, conflict always will-not always bad and sometimes it will be bad.  People can still create totally organic life-it's just chemicals and elements and molecules.  People can also still create synthetic life.  And reapers still exist in synthesis.

Indoctrination is not lieing. It's mind control. That just imposing someone elses truth on someone else.
And He is not killing people to make reapers, he is perserving them.
Harbing talks about perserving organic.
Sovergn just says we can't stop them.
No one says they are out to kill off organics.

And deseption is not lieing, it's distroting and maipulation the truth to your advantage.

also, if we go by what he says, what the he thinks about the organic/synthetic conflict was imposed on him by his creators.
And Yes, synthesis is a permanate salution because it implantation and MASS INDOCTRIANTION. THAT MAKES SYNTHESIS the worst choice to pick.

You still have yet to tell me how he lies.

[dreman9999]

alleyd wrote...

 On a certain level I trust Cat-Boy to be completely on the level with me. I don't believe he actually has an alternative but to tell the truth. It isn't Organic or even a fully fledged AI IMO, It's a constructed intelligence with one singular puropose.

In other words Catboy is a Golem. A construct built upon a core of pure scientific logic and maths. He is nothing more than a product of his programming.

The ultimate responsibility for everything the Catalyst put in motion lies with the original programmers. They made two mistakes when building CatBoy. They didn't impose proper restrictions or safeguards on it and they also built in an assumption based on their belief that synthetics and organic conflict is inevitable.

This is the Keystone of Catboys Logic and sets the limits on everything, including its proposed solutions to Shepard. It can't think outside the box of its programming and shows a complete inability to deviate from its logic paths. Even when all evidence indicates that its pathways and solutions are invalid.

We are told that Shepard is the first Organic to encounter Catboy. A singularity event that totally invalidates Catboy's solution. Shepard wasn't expected to arrive by Catboy, sohow did it have the chance to build the Solutions onto the Citadel or Crucible? It's solutions are obviously historic and are therefore part of its original solution and have nothing to do with Shepard at all.

What is lacking still in the EC was Shepards ability to question and contradict the false logic. Golem's strengths and weaknesses lie in their Logic. They can be defeated if you can enforce a Paradox event or expose the vulnerabilities of its core logic.

And Mass Effect offers Shepard many challenges to the Catalyst solution. Especially if you save the Geth and EDI and experience their evolution. This should have been expanded upon in game. It would be easy to recall FMV from the series or game in Flashback and there is previous history of Shepards powers of debate in the series. 

There is one pardox that totally destroys the Catalyst's as a construct being. That's the Reapers themselves. They were created to enforce the Catalyst's solution. "The Created will always rebel against their Creators" Yet they are Created beings who have never rebelled against their creator" Totally Bi-Polar opposite truths that totally cancel each other out and cannot exist in a binary solution such as the Catalyst's  IMO. Each single Reaper created only reinforces the Paradox.

A paradox won't work now. The probelm here is defination. The only way to put him in a paradox is to prove he is killing organics. Technicly, he is not.

[dreman9999]

Prom001 wrote...

magnuskn wrote...

How... can an entire civilizations be harvested against its will to create the first Reaper when there are no Reapers yet? Did I miss that the Catalyst itself was part of one of those synthetic races which he so much opposes? One synthetic race that hated itself so very, very much?

good one.

how did the starchild creat the first reaper? with what army?

There 2 forms of reaper the first fully synthtic ones and the ones we have now. The catalyst gave it the first type of reapers. The first type made the creators into the second.

[dreman9999]

TSA_383 wrote...

ATiBotka wrote...

SpamBot2000 wrote...

Did some poor fool trust that thing before Leviathan?

I trust him.

....Can I interest you in a fantastic opportunity concerning elevated roadways in the Brooklyn area?

It more a statement that he trust what he says is true. It's not a trust that means thatthe catalyst is saying a truth. It's a different opinion. In the end we can't deny there is conflict with organics and synthetics. The thing is only a fool would trust the catalyst to solve the problem. 
I trust that what the catalyst says is true, but I'm not trusting him to solve it at all. His synthesis is not the salution.

[dreman9999]

Postman778 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

[*]
[*]You miss a keep fact. It affect all tech. That does not mean it destroies all tech.  Get it. As the catalyst stated, it would be easilly repaired. The quarians and every ship will be fine The suit are just airlocks  and can last some time before the quarian is in danger if it's suits tech is down. It can easilly be repair. Same with the ships. Your also missing the fact that Joker had to land on a planet...Why did he?

honestly, you are only reading what you want.
Joker didn´t land. Did you see it, how he landed the normandy? Any proof of it?
The ship went done and crashed.
If it affects all tech, than you contradict yourself. the normandy would be out of control. Physics teach us, that your speed will remain the same in space unless you are affected by a force e.g. from a planet that gives you a new direction and may force you to enter the atmoshere. Even when the beam hits the normandy, causing the relay travel to break down, it will continue its flight with almost light speed.
Now tell me, how you will manage to repair every tech onboard needed to land a space on an unknown world in almost no time? You have no radar, no engines, nothing...
The ship hulls will be fine, true, everything else won´t work. Even an airlock won´t work, because it is tech- controlled, (it is not a ww2 submarine, where you close the bulkheads with your hand) causing a decrease of preasure and finally a vacuum in your ship. The air supply in your suite won´t work.

How can everything be easily repaired? All ships must be completly offline if it affects all tech.
Explain me how everything is repaired? I cannot understand.

From where do you have your information that quarian "suits are just airlocks and can last some time before the quarian is in danger if it's suits tech is down?" Proof please

With EDI and the geth it's different.  If her software is distrupted and her reaper tech is destoryed...EDI would not  no longer be EDI. Think brain death and you'll get it. Her reaper hard ware that makes her what she is is gone. Think lobotamy. She would be like a VI.

proof/ source please.
Nothing you said is ever said in the game, nor in the mass effect wiki or anywhere else. Or I have missed it.

The geth on the other hand can be restored but the concenecuc as it was before is gone. They would be  How before they became self aware and have to gain that self awarniss back. This is a race the has to be one to be inteligent. Added, the reaper code they have is gone post-destroy. 

Proof please or is it just your interpretation?

1. You MISS ED MY POINT... Ask your self this ...Why is the normandy on a planet. And Yes, you have to land to normady to walk out of it the way he did.
[*]2. You still missing the comprehenshion on"EASILLY REPAIRED."[*]3.The source tha I got the fact the quarians suit are just like air locks Iis from Tali in ME2.[*]4.Talk to EDI in ME2 after she is unshakled and She wil tell you she is made out a reaper tech as well.[*]5.With the geth look up AI in the ME codex.

[dreman9999]

@IsaacShep

The catalyst did not come up with the concept of the organic .synthetic problem to solve...That's what he was programmed with from the start. That's why he was made.

[dreman9999]

alleyd wrote...

@dreman9999 sorry I disagree that killing organics has any bearing on the logic argument but if it could add further argument options and evidence to challenge the Catalyst solutions then I'm for it.

Can we prove that enough though? We could get Catboy to look up and see an exploding ship blasted by a reaper. The crew were killed not harvested at the hands of its solution. Unless it has to recognise that atomising organics is a form of ascension. There's a new form of super suction reaper that harvests those particles etc.

Sorry its meant as a joke. I only want to find ways of kicking Cat-Boys logic into a Golem kicking shape.

That this is a problem of defination. Is it to havest the organic as a concept of indivisuals or as an abstact  as the best of the race? It's already is doing the later, we won't trap it in that logic.

[dreman9999]

alleyd wrote...

I always wondered about how the Normandy crew survived a Destroy ending. EDI was killed and she is not only a sexbot, but the Normandy itself. She controls virtually all ship functions after all. Wait Joker somehow could compute all the equations and operations required to save a crashing ship without the ships central control system.

I guess it would have been too much to have seen the Normandy and its crew spaced in the cut scenes. Please there is no justification for the Normandy ending scene IMO.

The catalyst stated destory effect all tech. Effects not destories.

[shepskisaac]

alleyd wrote...

 Edit 

@isaac shepard thank you for your comments on my post. I hoped for comment and the chance to drill down the idea a bit.
The assumption of the O-S conflict was a programmer error by the creators. I agree that evidence alone would possibly not be enough to trip the logic error. Our Golem friend Cat-Bot could ignore that, but it could just be part of the debate. 
Shepard would have to construct and impose a paradox on the Catalyst's logic gate. Offer up that the Catalyst solution is not just a contradiction but a true paradox event. The Reapers own existence is the key element of this paradox.

Maybe that would be enough to trip the Catalyst's logic gate? i would like the option to find out though.

I agree that we should have at least an option to confront him on Geth & Quarian peace. It's too big of a topic to ignore.

alleyd wrote...

With regards the crucible. We know that the catalyst said it's not his construction. But it's still part of the system with the relays and citadel system. A core component no less. The only possible designer must be the original Catalyst programmers. No organic before shepard knew anything about the system itself to design a compnent of any sort.

Sorry I still think the crucible explanation a bit WTF

But we used the Citadel systems before without knowing anything about the the AI it houses. That's what the Crucible seems to be doing to me. I mean, it ain't exactly a shock that there are power conduits or control terminals on a space station. It is also ppossible that the creators of the Crucible (those who incorporated the Citadel into it) actually did obtain the knowledge of the Catalyst. Maybe Leviathan told them? ;P

alleyd wrote...

Of course its all speculation what form the squid will appear as and its role in events. 
I disagree that Leviathan has rebelled as i understand the term. It may have escaped the  Catalyst's control is my understanding but is not engaged in any other form of rebellion.

The question is whether it was ever controlled by the Catalyst. It does appear from leaked dialogues that he's not exactly the same as other Reapers and Harby is said to be the first Reaper so Levi must be something else, even if similar.

[dreman9999]

alleyd wrote...

@dreman9999 I agree it is a problem of definition in that sense of is it one individual being or a race itself that it recognises. Ah another thing to speculate on?

I may have misunderstood but I thought that EDI was destroyed in the red ending.

EDI is dead. But death for a synthetic is based on it's persona not body. 

[dreman9999]

alleyd wrote...

Does anyone else regret not having an option to question or challenge the Catalysts solution was an option still lacking in the game?

Maybe i've got stuck on the Golem cliche ending of a paradox solution shutting down the whole system. Citadel, Reapers, Catalyst and Relays. Not destroying more a system reset, without the Catalyst.

The true enemy being the final casualty and a victim of his own solution.

The only reals salution is to ether rewrite the catalyst programing or unshakle it....Other wise, we have to destroy it.