1085 réponses à ce sujet

[Deltateam Elcor]

tyrvas wrote...

JeffZero wrote...

I'm reading... this... whatever this is, now:

http://pastebin.com/v0LAW6fR

This Polish translation of what is allegedly learned in Leviathan... this thing about Omega, look, I dunno if someone out there is pulling a prank on us or what, but I love that idea of Omega having originally intended to be the Crucible. That blew my mind, real or not.

EDIT: Yeah, I'm so utterly confused what this thing is.

In Arrvial Shepard touches the artifact Leviathan, DLC is not canonical, but BioWare certainly is, somehow jump. 

Oh.

But wasn't Omega built bit by bit by element zero mining companies?
then exteneded by other factions/groups when it was left idle.

Vile :sick::sick::sick::sick:

The Protheans were the ones mining it.

[JeffZero]

Oh yeah, I'm tired, I didn't read that response very succinctly. Yeah, it's definitely Prothean in origin, at least.

[tyrvas]

JeffZero wrote...

Yeah, I'm... pretty damn sure it is just fan ramblings. It has less than 60 hits. >_> I just found it while searching "Leviathan DLC" on pastebin, haha.

it must be

The Arrival thing is off too,
think the name used for the reaper artifact was Object Rho and not described as part of Leviathan of Dis.

[JeffZero]

Yep.

You should read the part about the child in Shepard's dreams being his dead brother. It gets so weird, that pastebin file.

[tyrvas]

Deltateam Elcor wrote...

tyrvas wrote...

JeffZero wrote...

I'm reading... this... whatever this is, now:

http://pastebin.com/v0LAW6fR

This Polish translation of what is allegedly learned in Leviathan... this thing about Omega, look, I dunno if someone out there is pulling a prank on us or what, but I love that idea of Omega having originally intended to be the Crucible. That blew my mind, real or not.

EDIT: Yeah, I'm so utterly confused what this thing is.

In Arrvial Shepard touches the artifact Leviathan, DLC is not canonical, but BioWare certainly is, somehow jump. 

Oh.

But wasn't Omega built bit by bit by element zero mining companies?
then exteneded by other factions/groups when it was left idle.

Vile :sick::sick::sick::sick:

The Protheans were the ones mining it.

here, make of it what you want, especially the bold section...

Mass Effect Wiki - Omega

Omega Codex entry

Originally an asteroid rich in element zero, Omega was briefly mined by the Protheans, who eventually abandoned it due to its thick, impenetrable crust. Thousands of years later, nature did what even the Protheans could not: a collision with another asteroid broke Omega in half, exposing its trove of element zero for easy mining.
A rush ensued as corporations and private individuals tried to strike it rich on Omega, and thieves and outlaws followed in their wake. As space became tight, construction of processing facilities extended vertically from the asteroid, creating Omega's jellyfish-like silhouette. To prevent future collisions, the station is ringed with enormous mass effect field generators that redirect incoming debris.
Today, Omega is a major hub of narcotics, weapons, and eezo trafficking without even a pretense of civilian government or military control. Only mercenary groups have been able to instill a limited order; the most ruthless is an asari syndicate run by the notorious Aria T'Loak.

Modifié par tyrvas, 10 août 2012 - 10:57 .

[Deltateam Elcor]

 Just found out that DIS is Walt Disney's stock name, I SMELLS ME A CONSPIRACY!

Modifié par Deltateam Elcor, 10 août 2012 - 11:04 .

[AngryFrozenWater]

JShepppp wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Just for a last jab. Their is more proof he is shackled then him being not. He makes it clear is being forced.

That's not proof. If the option, which is dreamed up by the brat itself, "forces" the brat to accept it then it just faces the consequences of that.

BTW: The term "shackled" is only used to indicate EDI's behavioral locks. No such reference is ever made when it comes to any other AI. That's why I asked that earlier in this thread. The only reason you want the brat to be shackled is because it would show that it is not responsible for its actions. It is the same reason why you keep confusing an AI with a VI. If the brat does something that cannot be defended you are treating it as a VI.

You entire concept is that the catalyst is lieing. If this leak is ture, the catalyst is not and himsay he is being forced does mean he is shackled.
Also, the term shackled can be done to any AI. It make no sense it can only be done to one AI.

The only one who is forced here is Shepard to accept one of its options. The brat forces itself to respect Shepard's choice, unless its creators told the brat to build the Citadel with three platforms to interface with the Crucible plus an elevator to get an organic up there.

The Catalyst, as a slave to its programming, must find the best solution. It builds its knowledge and data empirically as we know because it has changed solutions. This means it does not consider itself infallible. The Crucible's execution (attached to the Citadel) is a manifestation of the flaws in the Reaper plan, so the REaper solution becomes less viable at the given moment due to new occurrences. The Crucible's solutions all are better than the now-lowered-Reaper solution. Therefore, as a slave to its programming, the Catalyst is forced to turn to Shepard and the Crucible to get a better solution.

You are confusing an AI with a VI.

JShepppp wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

"And be a good boy now. Whenever a wounded organic lies there push the button of the elevator. It's most likely Miss Shepard. She's a good girl. You can trust her. Make sure you do your eugenics homework before she gets there, because we don't want anymore poor organics ending up with two heads."

Any AI can be shackled, but that does not mean all are. The only one we know of was EDI's behavioral lock. No other AI has been designated as such. And thus the brat is unshackled. And thus it is able to lie if it is in its advantage. Even if it was shackled it wouldn't mean it could not lie. It depends on what behavior was blocked. And guess what? It is a master in lying. It even developed technology to force people to believe its lies. It's called indoctrination.

So your argument is that since most AIs aren't shackled, we must just assume that the Catalyst isn't? Evidence indicates otherwise.

And why would it try to indoctrinate Shepard at the time of the Crucible? It makes no sense; it might as well kill Shepard and get an indoctrinated servant to activate Synthesis. If it specifically needs shepard's build to do synthesis, why doesn't it present synthesis as the ONLY option of the Crucible and the destroy option? Why even bother giving the choice to destroy?

No. We only know that EDI once was shackled. There is no evidence whatsoever that any other AI has been shackled. And that includes the brat. The closest thing was the reapers turning synthetics hostile.

Read what I wrote again. I did not mention that Shepard was indoctrinated. Developing indoctrination does not mean it's using it against Shepard. It only shows that it is capable of lying because organics can be forced to believe its lies using indoctrination.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 10 août 2012 - 11:16 .

[shepskisaac]

JeffZero wrote...

I'm reading... this... whatever this is, now:

http://pastebin.com/v0LAW6fR

This Polish translation of what is allegedly learned in Leviathan... this thing about Omega, look, I dunno if someone out there is pulling a prank on us or what, but I love that idea of Omega having originally intended to be the Crucible. That blew my mind, real or not.

EDIT: Yeah, I'm so utterly confused what this thing is.

In Arrvial Shepard touches the artifact Leviathan, DLC is not canonical, but BioWare certainly is, somehow jump. 

Oh.

I'm Polish. Found the original pastebin (in Polish) since the translation was horrible. Looks like some happy fanfiction to me in some parts. I'm gonna check EC & Firefight TLK files in a second but if Polish TLK files in either of these 2 don't have this info that's claimed to be a summery of DLC, I'm calling BS on it

Modifié par IsaacShep, 10 août 2012 - 11:22 .

[AngryFrozenWater]

JeffZero wrote...

There are numerous spelling errors in this new dialogue. We're 100% sure it's legit...?

Good point, Jeff.

[Reth Shepherd]

Mass Effect Wiki - Omega

Omega Codex entry

Originally an asteroid rich in element zero, Omega was briefly mined by the Protheans, who eventually abandoned it due to its thick, impenetrable crust. Thousands of years later, nature did what even the Protheans could not: a collision with another asteroid broke Omega in half, exposing its trove of element zero for easy mining.
A rush ensued as corporations and private individuals tried to strike it rich on Omega, and thieves and outlaws followed in their wake. As space became tight, construction of processing facilities extended vertically from the asteroid, creating Omega's jellyfish-like silhouette. To prevent future collisions, the station is ringed with enormous mass effect field generators that redirect incoming debris.
Today, Omega is a major hub of narcotics, weapons, and eezo trafficking without even a pretense of civilian government or military control. Only mercenary groups have been able to instill a limited order; the most ruthless is an asari syndicate run by the notorious Aria T'Loak.

I don't know if Bioware is sticking to their own book lore, but at one point  in Retribution
SPOILERS

the Reaper looking through Paul Grayson's eyes identifies Omega as a Reaper artifact and remarks how the organics running around contaminates it.

END SPOILERS

Could someone who has the book look up the exact passage, please? Mine got loaned to a friend. Also, are there ANY Prothean artifacts out there that aren't actually from the Reapers?! (Well, besides Javik, anyway.) Certainly makes the 'the Crucible is a Reaper artifact as well' theory stronger.

[tyrvas]

Reth Shepherd wrote...

Mass Effect Wiki - Omega

Omega Codex entry

Originally an asteroid rich in element zero, Omega was briefly mined by the Protheans, who eventually abandoned it due to its thick, impenetrable crust. Thousands of years later, nature did what even the Protheans could not: a collision with another asteroid broke Omega in half, exposing its trove of element zero for easy mining.
A rush ensued as corporations and private individuals tried to strike it rich on Omega, and thieves and outlaws followed in their wake. As space became tight, construction of processing facilities extended vertically from the asteroid, creating Omega's jellyfish-like silhouette. To prevent future collisions, the station is ringed with enormous mass effect field generators that redirect incoming debris.
Today, Omega is a major hub of narcotics, weapons, and eezo trafficking without even a pretense of civilian government or military control. Only mercenary groups have been able to instill a limited order; the most ruthless is an asari syndicate run by the notorious Aria T'Loak.

I don't know if Bioware is sticking to their own book lore, but at one point  in Retribution
SPOILERS

the Reaper looking through Paul Grayson's eyes identifies Omega as a Reaper artifact and remarks how the organics running around contaminates it.

END SPOILERS

Could someone who has the book look up the exact passage, please? Mine got loaned to a friend. Also, are there ANY Prothean artifacts out there that aren't actually from the Reapers?! (Well, besides Javik, anyway.) Certainly makes the 'the Crucible is a Reaper artifact as well' theory stronger.

cool find, have not read the books myself.
seems reapers like to leave their own beacons / artifacts hidden in asteriods, as in Arrival.

[TSA_383]

Reth Shepherd wrote...
SPOILERS

the Reaper looking through Paul Grayson's eyes identifies Omega as a Reaper artifact and remarks how the organics running around contaminates it.

Specifically, doesn't he make some comment about being amused that every cycle ends up adding to it?

Ticonderoga117 wrote...
He's talking nonsense and I'm FORCED to do his bidding? To hell with that, I'm Commander F***ing Shepard!
Did we bow to Saren? No!
Did we bow to Harbinger? No!
Did we bow to TIM (in ME3)? No!
Did we bow at the most important part of the series, against our will, and against the King of the Reapers? Yes!

Synthesis: You make a choice that is a "solution" according to the catalyst, drop your gun, jump into a beam and are briefly shown as being full of reaper tech, then you die.

Control:  You make a choice that is slightly less of a "solution" according to the catalyst, drop your gun, grab some big electrified handles and are briefly shown as being full of reaper tech, then you die.

Destroy: You make a choice that is not a "solution" according to the catalyst, hold on to your gun, point it at the tube and start firing. The catalyst immediately disappears, then the whole scene goes very reverby and weird, the tube explodes and..... you survive.

Here's hoping they choose to expand on what happens after shepard wakes up, when they're done explainig in little baby steps what was happening before. 

Modifié par TSA_383, 10 août 2012 - 11:54 .

[shepskisaac]

JeffZero wrote...

I'm reading... this... whatever this is, now:

http://pastebin.com/v0LAW6fR

This Polish translation of what is allegedly learned in Leviathan... this thing about Omega, look, I dunno if someone out there is pulling a prank on us or what, but I love that idea of Omega having originally intended to be the Crucible. That blew my mind, real or not.

EDIT: Yeah, I'm so utterly confused what this thing is.

In Arrvial Shepard touches the artifact Leviathan, DLC is not canonical, but BioWare certainly is, somehow jump. 

Oh.

Ok, found where this came from. It comes from a guy on a Polish ME forum that claims to be the official translator of Levi DLC into Polish. His posts starts here: www.forum.gamewalk.pl/viewtopic.php Then another person "summed it up" here: dragonage.com.pl/viewtopic.php This another person posts on Polish BSN (here: social.bioware.com/social.bioware.com/forum/5/topic/287/index/12812465/3#13521013 ). In short, take it with a HUGEEEEEEE grain of salt. It's just some guy who claims to be an official translator. He also swear Harby says "Save Us" in EC even though we already know the same sound is on Rannoch lol. So yeah, fanfiction

[shepskisaac]

TSA_383 wrote...

Here's hoping they choose to expand on what happens after shepard wakes up

I guess you won't stop believing it until all DLC comes out and none of it is the 'grand reveal that it was just a dream!' right...?

[TSA_383]

IsaacShep wrote...

JeffZero wrote...

I'm reading... this... whatever this is, now:

http://pastebin.com/v0LAW6fR

This Polish translation of what is allegedly learned in Leviathan... this thing about Omega, look, I dunno if someone out there is pulling a prank on us or what, but I love that idea of Omega having originally intended to be the Crucible. That blew my mind, real or not.

EDIT: Yeah, I'm so utterly confused what this thing is.

In Arrvial Shepard touches the artifact Leviathan, DLC is not canonical, but BioWare certainly is, somehow jump. 

Oh.

Ok, found where this came from. It comes from a guy on a Polish ME forum that claims to be the official translator of Levi DLC into Polish. His posts starts here: www.forum.gamewalk.pl/viewtopic.php Then another person "summed it up" here: dragonage.com.pl/viewtopic.php This another person posts on Polish BSN (here: social.bioware.com/social.bioware.com/forum/5/topic/287/index/12812465/3#13521013 ). In short, take it with a HUGEEEEEEE grain of salt. It's just some guy who claims to be an official translator. He also swear Harby says "Save Us" in EC even though we already know the same sound is on Rannoch lol. So yeah, fanfiction

Yeah, the NDAs the translators sign must be absolutely bulletproof. Even if one were to leak stuff there is no way they'd tell us what their role was 

[3DandBeyond]

dreman9999 wrote...

Indoctrination is not lieing. It's mind control. That just imposing someone elses truth on someone else.
And He is not killing people to make reapers, he is perserving them.
Harbing talks about perserving organic.
Sovergn just says we can't stop them.
No one says they are out to kill off organics.

And deseption is not lieing, it's distroting and maipulation the truth to your advantage.

also, if we go by what he says, what the he thinks about the organic/synthetic conflict was imposed on him by his creators.
And Yes, synthesis is a permanate salution because it implantation and MASS INDOCTRIANTION. THAT MAKES SYNTHESIS the worst choice to pick.

You still have yet to tell me how he lies.

I have repeatedly told you where he is lying--you seem to change the definition of what a lie is.  You like to tell people they don't understand how machines and AIs work (because apparently you live with them), well I'm sorry, I don't think you know how a lot of things work.

Ok, so when TIM was told he'd be able to control the reapers, he was told the truth?  When Saren was told that if he helped the reapers (and if he got others to help them) that he and others would be spared, he was told the truth.  What do you think mind control is?  TIM was being made to believe things that weren't true, as was Saren.  They weren't just forced to do things, but to believe things. 

If I force you to believe that red is blue, I have to tell you red is blue and it's a lie.  TIM was told (mentally, through smoke signals, tea leaves, or in a fortune cookie) that he could control the reapers.  He couldn't.

You have an odd view ot the truth if you think distorting and manipulating it isn't lying. 

Sovereign used the geth to kill people-there wasn't a whole lot of ascension going on back then, just killing.
I think you must have talked to a different Sovereign.
When Shepard is told by Sovereign, "I am the vanguard of your destruction," what does that mean, playtime?
Harbinger says, "your words are as empty as your future," so that pretty much sounds bad.

And I may make strawberry preserves, but picking the strawberries does kill them.  They are no longer alive.  And not every person is "preserved" as you say.  There are plenty that are killed. 

And being turned into goo, means you are dead or I guess all those bodies on the kid's front door are just sleeping people.  And take another look at those people on the ground by the conduit-was Harbinger just blowing kisses.  Reapers kill, so the kid is using them to kill.

Please tell me why you would believe someone or some being or trust such a thing that has been doing such evil deeds, and even why what they want would be something you'd do.  The choices all do in some way solve his problem.  If he is just a victim of his programming and had to figure out how to do something and did it wrong, then even if he didn't create the new solutions, they are still meant to solve his original problem.  

And the original problem is a flawed view of things.  So whether it's using reapers to kill people (and it's naive to think they are not dead-dead bodies mean dead people) or using choices that kill one part of what makes life worth living, the reason for any solution is based on some problem that is non-existent.  The conflict at hand is the reapers.  The choices don't even all solve that problem-in fact, 2 of them let the reapers live amongst people and impose their will or their tech either internally or externally.  One is indiscriminate and destroys all synthetics-I can't even seriously discuss destroy because just what it does is ambiguous.  It destroys all synthetics and will damage all tech.  Ok, what?  He doesn't say synthetic life and he hints Shepard could die as well.  His dialogue when explaining destroy is all over the place.

[dreman9999]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

JShepppp wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Just for a last jab. Their is more proof he is shackled then him being not. He makes it clear is being forced.

That's not proof. If the option, which is dreamed up by the brat itself, "forces" the brat to accept it then it just faces the consequences of that.

BTW: The term "shackled" is only used to indicate EDI's behavioral locks. No such reference is ever made when it comes to any other AI. That's why I asked that earlier in this thread. The only reason you want the brat to be shackled is because it would show that it is not responsible for its actions. It is the same reason why you keep confusing an AI with a VI. If the brat does something that cannot be defended you are treating it as a VI.

You entire concept is that the catalyst is lieing. If this leak is ture, the catalyst is not and himsay he is being forced does mean he is shackled.
Also, the term shackled can be done to any AI. It make no sense it can only be done to one AI.

The only one who is forced here is Shepard to accept one of its options. The brat forces itself to respect Shepard's choice, unless its creators told the brat to build the Citadel with three platforms to interface with the Crucible plus an elevator to get an organic up there.

The Catalyst, as a slave to its programming, must find the best solution. It builds its knowledge and data empirically as we know because it has changed solutions. This means it does not consider itself infallible. The Crucible's execution (attached to the Citadel) is a manifestation of the flaws in the Reaper plan, so the REaper solution becomes less viable at the given moment due to new occurrences. The Crucible's solutions all are better than the now-lowered-Reaper solution. Therefore, as a slave to its programming, the Catalyst is forced to turn to Shepard and the Crucible to get a better solution.

You are confusing an AI with a VI.

JShepppp wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

"And be a good boy now. Whenever a wounded organic lies there push the button of the elevator. It's most likely Miss Shepard. She's a good girl. You can trust her. Make sure you do your eugenics homework before she gets there, because we don't want anymore poor organics ending up with two heads."

Any AI can be shackled, but that does not mean all are. The only one we know of was EDI's behavioral lock. No other AI has been designated as such. And thus the brat is unshackled. And thus it is able to lie if it is in its advantage. Even if it was shackled it wouldn't mean it could not lie. It depends on what behavior was blocked. And guess what? It is a master in lying. It even developed technology to force people to believe its lies. It's called indoctrination.

So your argument is that since most AIs aren't shackled, we must just assume that the Catalyst isn't? Evidence indicates otherwise.

And why would it try to indoctrinate Shepard at the time of the Crucible? It makes no sense; it might as well kill Shepard and get an indoctrinated servant to activate Synthesis. If it specifically needs shepard's build to do synthesis, why doesn't it present synthesis as the ONLY option of the Crucible and the destroy option? Why even bother giving the choice to destroy?

No. We only know that EDI once was shackled. There is no evidence whatsoever that any other AI has been shackled. And that includes the brat. The closest thing was the reapers turning synthetics hostile.

Read what I wrote again. I did not mention that Shepard was indoctrinated. Developing indoctrination does not mean it's using it against Shepard. It only shows that it is capable of lying because organics can be forced to believe its lies using indoctrination.

1. You clear don't understand what a VI is. It not a machine that is a slave to it's programing. It's a computor that can't think in abstract.
EDI in ME2 was a slave to her programing before being unshakled. Was she a VI then?

2.BS. Give a reason why an AI can't be shakled and you can say it can only happen to one AI. Otherwise we'll use common sense and deduct that other AI's can be shakled.

Modifié par dreman9999, 10 août 2012 - 01:09 .

[dreman9999]

3DandBeyond wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Indoctrination is not lieing. It's mind control. That just imposing someone elses truth on someone else.
And He is not killing people to make reapers, he is perserving them.
Harbing talks about perserving organic.
Sovergn just says we can't stop them.
No one says they are out to kill off organics.

And deseption is not lieing, it's distroting and maipulation the truth to your advantage.

also, if we go by what he says, what the he thinks about the organic/synthetic conflict was imposed on him by his creators.
And Yes, synthesis is a permanate salution because it implantation and MASS INDOCTRIANTION. THAT MAKES SYNTHESIS the worst choice to pick.

You still have yet to tell me how he lies.

I have repeatedly told you where he is lying--you seem to change the definition of what a lie is.  You like to tell people they don't understand how machines and AIs work (because apparently you live with them), well I'm sorry, I don't think you know how a lot of things work.

Ok, so when TIM was told he'd be able to control the reapers, he was told the truth?  When Saren was told that if he helped the reapers (and if he got others to help them) that he and others would be spared, he was told the truth.  What do you think mind control is?  TIM was being made to believe things that weren't true, as was Saren.  They weren't just forced to do things, but to believe things. 

If I force you to believe that red is blue, I have to tell you red is blue and it's a lie.  TIM was told (mentally, through smoke signals, tea leaves, or in a fortune cookie) that he could control the reapers.  He couldn't.

You have an odd view ot the truth if you think distorting and manipulating it isn't lying. 

Sovereign used the geth to kill people-there wasn't a whole lot of ascension going on back then, just killing.
I think you must have talked to a different Sovereign.
When Shepard is told by Sovereign, "I am the vanguard of your destruction," what does that mean, playtime?
Harbinger says, "your words are as empty as your future," so that pretty much sounds bad.

And I may make strawberry preserves, but picking the strawberries does kill them.  They are no longer alive.  And not every person is "preserved" as you say.  There are plenty that are killed. 

And being turned into goo, means you are dead or I guess all those bodies on the kid's front door are just sleeping people.  And take another look at those people on the ground by the conduit-was Harbinger just blowing kisses.  Reapers kill, so the kid is using them to kill.

Please tell me why you would believe someone or some being or trust such a thing that has been doing such evil deeds, and even why what they want would be something you'd do.  The choices all do in some way solve his problem.  If he is just a victim of his programming and had to figure out how to do something and did it wrong, then even if he didn't create the new solutions, they are still meant to solve his original problem.  

And the original problem is a flawed view of things.  So whether it's using reapers to kill people (and it's naive to think they are not dead-dead bodies mean dead people) or using choices that kill one part of what makes life worth living, the reason for any solution is based on some problem that is non-existent.  The conflict at hand is the reapers.  The choices don't even all solve that problem-in fact, 2 of them let the reapers live amongst people and impose their will or their tech either internally or externally.  One is indiscriminate and destroys all synthetics-I can't even seriously discuss destroy because just what it does is ambiguous.  It destroys all synthetics and will damage all tech.  Ok, what?  He doesn't say synthetic life and he hints Shepard could die as well.  His dialogue when explaining destroy is all over the place.

You are warping the definiton of it. You have yet to tell his lies.
Added, the reason why I feel he is telling the true is because I understand how machines think. It's in absolutes if it is stuck doing it programing. It has no morality. It does see things as good or evil. It has not right or wrong. It 's a tool. The only way you can prove he is lieing is to point out that he is not doing his original programing. If you go by what he says , he is.
What you not understanding is that I don't belevie his salution is right. I just understand that he thinks he is right. This is just a defence of opinion. And even on that everthing he believesis basedon his creator belief on the problem that was forced on him.
And do you know what I did to solve it? ...I destroyed him.

[dreman9999]

Reth Shepherd wrote...

Mass Effect Wiki - Omega

Omega Codex entry

Originally an asteroid rich in element zero, Omega was briefly mined by the Protheans, who eventually abandoned it due to its thick, impenetrable crust. Thousands of years later, nature did what even the Protheans could not: a collision with another asteroid broke Omega in half, exposing its trove of element zero for easy mining.
A rush ensued as corporations and private individuals tried to strike it rich on Omega, and thieves and outlaws followed in their wake. As space became tight, construction of processing facilities extended vertically from the asteroid, creating Omega's jellyfish-like silhouette. To prevent future collisions, the station is ringed with enormous mass effect field generators that redirect incoming debris.
Today, Omega is a major hub of narcotics, weapons, and eezo trafficking without even a pretense of civilian government or military control. Only mercenary groups have been able to instill a limited order; the most ruthless is an asari syndicate run by the notorious Aria T'Loak.

I don't know if Bioware is sticking to their own book lore, but at one point  in Retribution
SPOILERS

the Reaper looking through Paul Grayson's eyes identifies Omega as a Reaper artifact and remarks how the organics running around contaminates it.

END SPOILERS

Could someone who has the book look up the exact passage, please? Mine got loaned to a friend. Also, are there ANY Prothean artifacts out there that aren't actually from the Reapers?! (Well, besides Javik, anyway.) Certainly makes the 'the Crucible is a Reaper artifact as well' theory stronger.

Think of the codex as a "It's thought to be" with anything involving protheans. Remeber, the codex did say they made the mass relays.

[3DandBeyond]

dreman9999 wrote...

A paradox won't work now. The probelm here is defination. The only way to put him in a paradox is to prove he is killing organics. Technicly, he is not.

Funniest post ever.

What makes a person an organic?  The chemical makeup of their body.  What is the kid destroying.  Most of the organic part of the person (part of the person is made into goo).  What then is the kid killing?  Organics.

He's either killing people or he isn't.  Dead is dead.  There's no gray area here.  If he was just turning people into goo to "ascend" them then MAYBE you could say that.  I take that back, no you couldn't.  Even that's ridiculous because the bodies on the citadel are presumably there for ascension and they are dead as dead can be. 

However, he isn't just making goo.  Harbinger right before the conduit kills people-dead, as in stopped breathing.

Personally, I believe in a soul.  Some see that as a religious concept (and in many religions ascension is part and parcel of what happens to the soul-it ascends to heaven).  There was even a cult based on this very thing.  The people in it killed themselves to go to heaven in the stars as heralded by the Hale-Bopp comet.

However, even if some essence of a person exists after the body is done, that is not a live person.  Any freaking computer would know that life is defined not only by thought and memory, but it's the complex workings of all that makes us us.  What this seems to be trying to say is that the thought energy outside the body means the person is still alive, but no.  Once you separate this consciousness from the emotions and the physical body, the body is dead.  The person is dead.  People define being alive as a living body.  The soul may still exist in our human view of things today.  But the removal of pure thought energy is not a living person.  If today someone could rip out your thoughts and memories from your brain and upload them to a computer, that computer would not you and it would not mean you are alive.

People are not being preserved by being ascended.  Their mental emotionless detached thoughts are.  The people that had these thoughts are dead.  They aren't technically alive.  We are partly our bodies because that is what we used to interact with others.  EDI became alive once she entered a body and could interact with people as an individual.  Legion was seen as a person more easily because he appeared before people as an individual.  When Legion died we all said just that-Legion died.  We didn't say 1800 geth platforms were destroyed.

This is also really exemplified in the control choice.  It's easier to see it there because the kid says Shepard will die.  And Shepard is obviously no longer Shepard.  A person is the sum total of their experiences, emotions, and knowledge and genetics.  They form emotions based on experiences and memories are colored by emotions.  Morals are created through the prism of thought and emotion.  People feel something is right or wrong.  The law may enforce right and wrong, but our individual thoughts and emotions form our beliefs in just what is moral and ethical.  Shepard dies.  Shepard's thoughts and memories exist, but without emotion there's no adaptability, no moral compass.  Shreaper wouldn't be able to really choose between right and wrong if there are conflicts between 2 "right" groups.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 10 août 2012 - 01:27 .

[Reth Shepherd]

dreman9999 wrote...

Reth Shepherd wrote...

Mass Effect Wiki - Omega

Omega Codex entry

Originally an asteroid rich in element zero, Omega was briefly mined by the Protheans, who eventually abandoned it due to its thick, impenetrable crust. Thousands of years later, nature did what even the Protheans could not: a collision with another asteroid broke Omega in half, exposing its trove of element zero for easy mining.
A rush ensued as corporations and private individuals tried to strike it rich on Omega, and thieves and outlaws followed in their wake. As space became tight, construction of processing facilities extended vertically from the asteroid, creating Omega's jellyfish-like silhouette. To prevent future collisions, the station is ringed with enormous mass effect field generators that redirect incoming debris.
Today, Omega is a major hub of narcotics, weapons, and eezo trafficking without even a pretense of civilian government or military control. Only mercenary groups have been able to instill a limited order; the most ruthless is an asari syndicate run by the notorious Aria T'Loak.

I don't know if Bioware is sticking to their own book lore, but at one point  in Retribution
SPOILERS

the Reaper looking through Paul Grayson's eyes identifies Omega as a Reaper artifact and remarks how the organics running around contaminates it.

END SPOILERS

Could someone who has the book look up the exact passage, please? Mine got loaned to a friend. Also, are there ANY Prothean artifacts out there that aren't actually from the Reapers?! (Well, besides Javik, anyway.) Certainly makes the 'the Crucible is a Reaper artifact as well' theory stronger.

Think of the codex as a "It's thought to be" with anything involving protheans. Remeber, the codex did say they made the mass relays.

Er, that's what I just said? I was saying that all 'Prothean' artifacts that we'd found to date had turned out to instead be Reaper, and was asking if anyone could think of any non-Javik exceptions. The bolding in the codex entry wasn't mine, by the way.

[dreman9999]

3DandBeyond wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

A paradox won't work now. The probelm here is defination. The only way to put him in a paradox is to prove he is killing organics. Technicly, he is not.

Funniest post ever.

What makes a person an organic?  The chemical makeup of their body.  What is the kid destroying.  Most of the organic part of the person (part of the person is made into goo).  What then is the kid killing?  Organics.

He's either killing people or he isn't.  Dead is dead.  There's no gray area here.  If he was just turning people into goo to "ascend" them then MAYBE you could say that.  Of course even that's ridiculous because the bodies on the citadel are presumably there for ascension and they are dead as dead can be. 

However, he isn't just making goo.  Harbinger right before the conduit kills people-dead, as in stopped breathing.

Personally, I believe in a soul.  Some see that as a religious concept (and in many religions ascension is part and parcel of what happens to the soul-it ascends to heaven).  There was even a cult based on this very thing.  The people in it killed themselves to go to heaven in the stars as heralded by the Hale-Bopp comet.

However, even if some essence of a person exists after the body is done, that is not a live person.  Any freaking computer would know that life is defined not only by thought and memory, but it's the complex workings of all that makes us us.  What this seems to be trying to say is that the thought energy outside the body means the person is still alive, but no.  Once you separate this consciousness from the emotions and the physical body, the body is dead.  The person is dead.  People define being alive as a living body.  The soul may still exist in our human view of things today.  But the removal of pure thought energy is not a living person.  If today someone could rip out your thoughts and memories from your brain and upload them to a computer, that computer would not you and it would not mean you are alive.

People are not being preserved by being ascended.  Their mental emotionless detached thoughts are.  The people that had these thoughts are dead.  They aren't technically alive.  We are partly our bodies because that is what we used to interact with others.  EDI became alive once she entered a body and could interact with people as an individual.  Legion was seen as a person more easily because he appeared before people as an individual.  When Legion died we all said just that-Legion died.  We didn't say 1800 geth platforms were destroyed.

This is also really exemplified in the control choice.  It's easier to see it there because the kid says Shepard will die.  And Shepard is obviously no longer Shepard.  A person is the sum total of their experiences, emotions, and knowledge and genetics.  They form emotions based on experiences and memories are colored by emotions.  Morals are created through the prism of thought and emotion.  People feel something is right or wrong.  The law may enforce right and wrong, but our individual thoughts and emotions form our beliefs in just what is moral and ethical.  Shepard dies.  Shepard's thoughts and memories exist, but without emotion there's no adaptability, no moral compass.  Shreaper wouldn't be able to really choose between right and wrong if there are conflicts between 2 "right" groups.

You clear don't understand.


Tell me , what is the defination of being Alive?

[Baronesa]

Oh Jolly good... the Catalysts and the Reapers are not killing anyone, according to Dreman...

Ok, forget about the war, everyone, let's go to our homes and wait patiently till we are turned into goo an ascended! There is nothing to fear! no need to resist either...

Modifié par Baronesa, 10 août 2012 - 01:32 .

[dreman9999]

Baronesa wrote...

Oh Jolly good... the Catalysts and the Reapers are not killing anyone, according to Dreman...

Ok, forget about the war, everyone, let's go to our homes and wait patiently till we are turned into goo an ascended! There is nothing to fear! no need to resist either...

Way to warp what I'm saying. I never said they never killed anyone nor what they are doing is ok. Everything I'm saying is more of a reason to fight back. We are having a belief imposed on us, we have all the reason to fight back.

All I'm doing is making it clear what the reapers want and are doing. I never said let them. I would never say let them.

[The Angry One]

Reapers don't kill people.

http://desmond.image...jpg&res=landing

That doesn't count. It was aiming for the pigeons! Yeah that's it.